Braben’s Vision and It’s Implications

[House0fDerp]

Why is it that a reasonable reflection by the OP does nothing but draw out all the malcontents?

Elite is a better game, much better, for me than it was in 2015. Development could be faster, but it is all too human to want it all NOW, patience is a virtue that seems much more prevalent in the SC universe.

Let's see where the next 12 months will take us.

I'd wager a large part of the malcontent isn't lack patience so much as not liking the direction of what has been shown. Infinite patience doesn't make past decisions better now, and it's those past decisions that are responsible for the current state of the game.

So if one is discontent with the feature decisions over the current season rather than its pace, patience offers no reason to believe we'd get anything but more of the same.

 

[CMDR Minion Blob]

Unfortunately, David Braben's long-term vision's realization is many, many paint packs away.

 

[VR jefranklin18]

I don't doubt the vision that David Braben has for the future of ED. My concern is that the execution thus far makes it feel as if it will not be realised. I don't want to sound overly complaining but Horizons has been pretty shambolic for ED - we have no date when it will be complete to the point where they are "staggering" the 2.4 update despite it being nearly 2 years since it was first announced.

If season 3 or however they deliver it is going to be focused on delivering updates to core features with no significant headlines (we don't have any way of knowing one way or the other because Frontier point blank refuses to give the wider community any information), then the "rich" features and experiences that are talked about will remain just a pipe dream. Frontier can stop this negativity by talking about their 2.4 and beyond plans beyond the "we'll tell you soon" which is an ED meme that has become utterly tiresome.

 

[Toumal]

Why is it that a reasonable reflection by the OP does nothing but draw out all the malcontents?

Elite is a better game, much better, for me than it was in 2015. Development could be faster, but it is all too human to want it all NOW.

I'd say that while there has been a lot of really awesome progress, some of the designs are... misguided. The full-on focus on combat for example, with Sandro wracking his brain over weapon cooldowns and gimbal jitter, when what the game needs now is more *reasons* to play. Multicrew was a complete dud for me, because again it's just a slightly different way to do the same thing we've always done: Blowing up ships.

To that end, I find the whole thargoid thing to be alright. Not amazing, since there's also no unique gameplay involved, but at least you're combining the existing gameplay actions to trigger well-made visual sequences - and having some unique locations in the game is always good.

The biggest star in the game however is definitely the galaxy, followed by the combat. It's just that we kinda yearn for more than these two main ingredients.

 

[playfuldreamer]

Why is it that a reasonable reflection by the OP does nothing but draw out all the malcontents?

Elite is a better game, much better, for me than it was in 2015. Development could be faster, but it is all too human to want it all NOW, patience is a virtue that seems much more prevalent in the SC universe.

Let's see where the next 12 months will take us.

Discontent with the game is high, evidenced by the volume of it posted to the forum and elsewhere. Despite claims that the forum population is only a minority, I do believe it's representative of the wider community in the same way that polls serve as representations of demographics. I think a large part of the unhappiness stems from the dismal communication offered by Frontier, and there's been no improvement on that front since their most recent protestation they would work on it. So let's not be surprised that talk of what Braben wants vs what Braben delivers lures out some criticism.

Personally, I'm ready to be done with the game. I recently purchased a paintjob for my Beluga (which was destroyed by a falling skimmer during the maiden voyage), but I doubt I will be making anymore purchases in the future; Frontier have simply not earned it from me. Better communication of where the game is at and where it's going, as opposed to where Braben wants it be would go a long way toward building confidence. But as of this moment, I'm just not convinced Braben is telling us anything meaningful.

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[CMDR-AD]

The vision Mr. Braben expresses is, to me, an exciting and interesting world. Of course the game can never be everything that it's creator, or anyone, may imagine.

For me, after a couple years play, some of my disappointments are more with some of the fundamental game design realities. And these design realities are nothing new. They've been there since the day I began playing Elite Dangerous, but early on, I didn't realize or recognize them.

Chief of all for me, is the "rank up" design flow, which touches nearly every aspect of Elite. Whether it's earning credits, or reputation, or rank, or whatever... There is next to nothing implemented in ways that play out for any other reason. Even for the sake of simple excitement. That basic sense of thrill that is a reward in and of itself.

A huge and easy example... CQC being brought into the main game as a sporting event, at various locations through the bubble. A place to gather, chat, look at the weekly leader boards, spectate challengers competing, and to try my own hand at the game. And I don't want or need to have any of this play rank up, or unlock any garbage, or make me ultra rich, or become something that CMDRs game for some external benefit and foul the whole thing up. Just the thrill of the play, the rush of actually seeing my own name up on those leader boards, if only for a brief time before being bested.

And this same CQC idea in a racing format. In ships, in SRV, at locations much like Engineer bases. So much opportunity here. And no need for it to offer anything but thrills.

Another example that comes to mind from my recent history reading... the timeless blockade and blockade running. These don't even exist in Elite Dangerous, and it's a shame. A shame built upon ship designs where the biggest, heaviest armed ship is so often the best ship for every purpose. Imagine having ultra low-mass ship builds that could actually be uncatchable in SC for high-mass combat ships. Giving meaning and significance to a light, nimble runner like the Hauler, or Adder. Ships that when stripped light simply could not be caught in SC by a heavy loaded FDL, Cutter, etc. Blockades would need more than wings of FDL and Cutter tanks. The blockade would need some low-mass interdictors Winged with them to pull down the runner ships, and then have the heavy hitting combat ships arrive to do business. And coordinated jumps of blockade runners would mean waves of runners arriving at once, and some would successfully make the run. And I'm not talking just Open mode here, but all modes. Systems in Lockdown/War/etc. could have NPC blockades in place, that actively pursue and prosecute ships in their space that same way... Low-mass interdictor builds that pull me down, and then the heavy hitters drop in. Just simple excitement in trying to run these things, for a CG, or a minor faction support, or even fun. Whatever.

More than anything, I hope that Elite and it's ultimate vision does not suffer from the huge inertia of it's several presently thin gameplay mechanics. Some things have been so thin and simple, for so long, that I fear they'll never really be improved and made rich and more complex, simply to avoid upsetting some players.

 

[Enderby]

It's all so... nebulous.

 

[Lightspeed]

One year ago, I would have defended Elite with passion. I would have argued that the game's foundations are so strong, that it doesn't matter that content is lacking. That this is enough for this to be considered a great game, because it can only get better than that.

Then we got hit with RNGinners, smellypresence, skittles MTX, healing lasers and whatnot. Take that for fidelity to science and visual beauty. Sure there were some rotten apples before, but those were understandable because of abstractisation, and the line into incoherence had not yet been crossed.



I can only be supportive for so long. It's really hard to agree anymore when your naughty players literally own billions and you insist a 6k bounty is needed because of balance.


It may look like I disagree with your conclusions, but in fact I am not. Your train of thought is solid. What I am disagreeing with is your premise. Which is Braben's "vision".


To me this vision at this point is nothing more than a marketing trick intended for those who's purchase decisions are heavily influenced by the dreams they build in their heads (as opposed to, for example, people who are in it for the competitive PvP). Am I taking it a step to far stating that these were the kind of people buying the game early? All I see at this time is a game being made to sell, "looting and crafting" because every other online game does it, porting to consoles because sales, feature X and feature Y which needs to be about "quick fun" because you need to attract your average consumer who can only spend so much playing these days etc. etc. etc.

There's nothing wrong with a game built to sell, game development is a business after all. But I don't see the need to build shrines to it either. Paying the retail price is all the support a business needs. Critical acclaim, fandom, these are reserved for those who go beyond the line of duty and create a work of art.

I am finding myself coming around to agreeing mostly with what you say here ..... how sad is that ? .... for me, at least.

 

[Han Zulu]

All this does not negate legitimate critique for decisions about design and implementation that are not up to snuff. Still, the interview gave me hope that Elite will continue, and in ten years be a far more vibrant cosmos (virtual world) than it is today. It will likely take more time on Frontier’s part, and more patience on our own.

Good post overall.

Also, if it continues for 10 years, the continuous addition of more things that can be done (here's hoping for exploration, trading, and perhaps most mystery solving missions), there will be so much that a person could do that no one perhaps ever can do it all. Already now, I know there are many things I'd like to do but haven't gotten around to yet. I haven't bothered working on my Combat rank. Not all engineers are unlocked. There are more abandoned settlements I haven't visited. There are plenty of nebulaes and tourist places I haven't been to yet (the neutron twin for instance or Beagle's point). And I won't be able to do all of them before 2.4 most likely, and I just learned about the Palin mission... Gosh. I don't agree that there's no enough to do in the game. I think there's plenty and more is coming.

When it comes to the critique, yeah, there are things that could be done better, but so far, there are more good things than bad in the game, and that's all I need.

 

[h347h]

Just play SC or NMS... not even close.

 

[askavir]

Yes, the core-game must be improved, but at the same time, they should also work towards adding initial (basic) versions of EVA and Atmospheric landings. These things can be paid major updates during season 3.

Sandro Sammarco was interviewed this year's E3 and said work hasn't even started in atmospheric landings. If it ever comes, it is still a very long time away.

 

[Han Zulu]

Then we got hit with RNGinners, smellypresence, skittles MTX, healing lasers and whatnot. Take that for fidelity to science and visual beauty. Sure there were some rotten apples before, but those were understandable because of abstractisation, and the line into incoherence had not yet been crossed.

The interesting thing is that most of the problems and the critique when it comes to some of the mechanics in ED relates to combat specific functions. If Braben wants to built this universe to be more like history, there has to be 50 thousand times better support for exploring, science, and advanced engineering (not the Lotto based gamble like now). The combat mechanics in ED is amazing. It's advanced beyond any other game I know, but all the other things are about 10 years behind many other exploration games. And when Braben was talking about the gas giants recently, he mentioned that he was interested in it to see how combat would work in such environment, and that upsets me a bit. It's not only and all about combat in a social universe. I'm not being interdicted by an interstate on the freeway every exit/entry I take, for instance. I'm not getting griefed by people outside the store or parking lot. People don't shoot other people in every little city every 5 minutes. There are places to go and see things and experience things without having to bring a gun! So... not until a normal social structure like in real life is happening, ED won't really measure up to Braben's dream. I love his dream, but ED has to become less wild west and a bit more civilized and educated and industrial west.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

I think Braben's Vision is called Star Citizen. I eagerly await the full realization of Braben's vision.

 

[Han Zulu]

C
Long term motivators are things you can do as a result of and using the assets you gained via mid-term motivated actions. So you got that Anaconda, what do you do with it? Right now, not much.

You can explore. But there's not much to do with exploring. At least we got landing to make it more interesting, but there's more that could be done to improve exploration (without adding more combat).

You can try Powerplay but that's not something you own so the personal motivation is low. What can be a motivator are player groups, but also things that you could build that are bigger than any single player's ship. Right now, such features are ultimately lacking in ED, which is what people generally perceive as "an inch deep". It's an inch deep because while you can always fly a spaceship, you can never own a self-constructed mining rig or outpost on a planet or in orbit somewhere.

That won't happen, because if that was a possibility, you would need 50 people to defend it. Having your peaceful mining rig or outpost is such a target for all the combat and warfare going on. You wouldn't have a chance to keep it. The game doesn't allow itself well to peaceful existence (yet), because it's so focused on combat. Just thing of how you do mining right now. You shoot things, not drill, not excavate, not put it into some grinder, but shooting it with weapon like mechanics. And it's because shooting is the main tool of interaction in the game. It has to change to improve the ability to be peaceful. How I don't know, but Elon Musk's booring machine doesn't shoot its way through the ground, strangely enough, and neither did any of the landers on the Moon or Mars. We can have peaceful mining the day when we can trust a system we live in to be peaceful and defended for us. That's how normal society works. I don't need a gun because there's good enough protection in place. In ED space, you're not even safe in a High Security area.

The West society grew when science, exploration, technology could be evolved without fear of constant violence. It's a bit too violent in ED right now because it's in a global state of war, and probably will be so for a while until the dark ages are over.

I think Braben's Vision is called Star Citizen. I eagerly await the full realization of Braben's vision.

I'm not sure about that. I get the feeling Star Citizen is also falling into the trap of PvP combat/battle/warfare/pirates. All other things secondary.

 

[JosiahD]

This weekend I had a chance to catch up with David Braben’s interview about Elite: Dangerous with Rolling Stone, as well as the community’s reactions.

The community has largely focused on his hopes that Elite will still be thriving a decade on. Some believe that is possible, while others say it is unlikely. The debate here, as ever, revolves around the viability of the game design. This is a legitimate topic of debate, but that is not my focus here.

Read in it’s entirety, the interview gives us something of Braben’s vision for Elite, which in turn has implications for its future.

The interview clarifies that Elite as not “just a game” to Braben. It is rather a hard science fiction simulation with gaming elements, a virtual world or cosmos. In this sense, Elite is akin to a cross between a narrative driven game like Star Citizen and a virtual world like Second Life.

For Braben, the gaming elements are not focused on linear storylines featuring individuals who play through from beginning to end. Instead he is creating an overarching narrative of humanity’s journey in the galaxy — Sol’s colonization, the out-migration of generation ships, the emergence of human civilizations and stellar politics, humanity’s encounter with the truly other (i.e. Thargoids), and so on.

This isn’t because Braben is hostile to games built around linear plots. It is because of his enthusiasm for using history as a source of inspiration and the galaxy as the focus of his creative energies. He is using historical periods and events as analogues from which to build a galactic context. For example, his interpretation of the dignity of Roman slavery inspires the institution of Elite’s imperial slaves. This slow-burn storyline of human development along with Elite’s gaming elements is intended to form the context for social interaction.

Elite is not meant to be a game that one finishes per se. It is rather a virtual world or cosmos that one inhabits. The gaming elements help make that possible, but they are the means and not the end.

So what are the implications of Braben’s vision for Elite? I’ll mention three and wrap it up. I’m very interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.

The first is for our expectations , both with respect for development and content. In terms of development, it seems the lions share of effort is given over to the galaxy’s physical environment and its fidelity to science, visual beauty, and immersive audio. Perhaps understandably, the gaming elements and social tools are taking a tad longer to build out. It also means the gaming content is not likely to ever be comparable to linear, storyline games. Even so, Frontier has much more to do outside of combat (e.g. exploration, trading, mining, crafting) so that pilots with different interests can truly chart their own way.

The second is the importance of the community to developing an infrastructure for the social environment. One aspect of Elite that is heavily criticized is its absence of quality tools for organizing pilots and finding information. The community’s response has been to create a set of extraordinary “social tools” — think Coriolis, Elite Trade Net, EDDB, Inara, and the like. This is an opportunity for Frontier to build out its social environment in direct collaboration with the community. I hope the Third Party Strike is proving productive in this respect.

The third is the ethics that need to govern a cosmos. All virtual worlds have to grapple with this. Their open-ended sandbox environment combined with the maliciousness of some people can ruin one’s ability to thrive “in-game”. In Elite, this has been illustrated by the problem of griefing, something that should not be confused with regular pvp in Open. We should all be supportive, therefore, of Frontier creating strong mechanics to deal with griefers, and other mechanics as the need arises. The health of Elite as a whole — as a virtual world and as a business enterprise — is threatened by malicious actors.

All this does not negate legitimate critique for decisions about design and implementation that are not up to snuff. Still, the interview gave me hope that Elite will continue, and in ten years be a far more vibrant cosmos (virtual world) than it is today. It will likely take more time on Frontier’s part, and more patience on our own.

I agree. I've taken the view for some time that Elite is a game to be 'lived' in rather than played, per se. I believe one needs to approach it from the point of view of 'If I could live in this time period, with these ships etc, how do I think I would live my life?' rather than approaching it as a game to be completed or 'beaten'.

 

[Lucian667]

The interview clarifies that Elite as not “just a game” to Braben. It is rather a hard science fiction simulation with gaming elements, a virtual world or cosmos. In this sense, Elite is akin to a cross between a narrative driven game like Star Citizen and a virtual world like Second Life.

If Braben truly does see ED as hard science fiction then that's an immediate and enormous problem with his perception of reality because - although I still find it fun - ED is about as HARD Sci-fi as Star Wars.

 

[IamNickMan]

Wellp OP sums up my thoughts entirely. Only thing I can add is that in the future I hope to see more community interaction between FDev and in game content and events(think Community goals). As well as the devs with the community themselves. So far they've done a stellar job of doing this. If only at baby steps at a time while building out this beast we call home.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I see Elite as a medium, a platform and a stage more than a simulation or a game.

It is the tool by which we tell our own stories, even as much larger events unfold around us.

If Braben truly does see ED as hard science fiction then that's an immediate and enormous problem with his perception of reality because - although I still find it fun - ED is about as HARD Sci-fi as Star Wars.

Well given the volumes of Star Wars lore out there beyond the movies, I have to ask what your definition of "HARD Sci-fi" is.

 

[Han Zulu]

Wellp OP sums up my thoughts entirely. Only thing I can add is that in the future I hope to see more community interaction between FDev and in game content and events(think Community goals). As well as the devs with the community themselves. So far they've done a stellar job of doing this so far. If only at baby steps at a time while building out this beast we call home.

I've participated in one or two streamed events, and it's pretty cool. I love that. More things like that. Those are fun.

 

[askavir]

I'm not sure about that. I get the feeling Star Citizen is also falling into the trap of PvP combat/battle/warfare/pirates. All other things secondary.

True, I believe that as well.

Suspending my belief quite a bit to presume Star Citizen will eventually become a released game, in all those demo videos so far I still haven't managed to see anything that makes me believe that Star Citizen will ever be more than just yet another generic spacepew with some very mild flavours of other things bolted on, like pretty much all, or nearly all space sims ever released (including ED).