Braben’s Vision and It’s Implications

[MottiKhan]

I think it's nice that David B would like to see the game going for 10 more years. Especially since FD's financial statement has been saying that the game's lifespan was 8 years from release. The most current statement also agrees that we have 4 1/2 years left. I'm not sure if the cobra engine will still be viable in 10 years, so maybe ED will have a sequel after the 8 year life is up.

New computer technology will make the current game look rather quaint in 10 years. I'll be pretty happy if it meets the original life span. That's pretty good value for money.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

It certainly sounds like they're going to make a Star Wars game.
And definitely not Star Trek.

 

[Xenith]

I think it's nice that David B would like to see the game going for 10 more years. Especially since FD's financial statement has been saying that the game's lifespan was 8 years from release. The most current statement also agrees that we have 4 1/2 years left. I'm not sure if the cobra engine will still be viable in 10 years, so maybe ED will have a sequel after the 8 year life is up.

New computer technology will make the current game look rather quaint in 10 years. I'll be pretty happy if it meets the original life span. That's pretty good value for money.

A decade is perfectly reasonable, as long as development continues. Even longer? Still possible, though it will of course probably not age well. That being said, there are games still up and about which were released in 2000, so anything is possible!

 

[NW3]

I think it's nice that David B would like to see the game going for 10 more years. Especially since FD's financial statement has been saying that the game's lifespan was 8 years from release. The most current statement also agrees that we have 4 1/2 years left. I'm not sure if the cobra engine will still be viable in 10 years, so maybe ED will have a sequel after the 8 year life is up.

New computer technology will make the current game look rather quaint in 10 years. I'll be pretty happy if it meets the original life span. That's pretty good value for money.

Respectfully, I'm not sure what new technology could obsolete ED in 10 years. VR will certainly affect lots of games, but ED handles that quite well. The models and textures are highly detailed. My prediction is that it will hold up better than some contemporary games. I certainly hope so. I'll probably be the only one in the old folks home with a HOTAS and a VR rig.

A decade is perfectly reasonable, as long as development continues. Even longer? Still possible, though it will of course probably not age well. That being said, there are games still up and about which were released in 2000, so anything is possible!

Software needs maintenance, revision, and eventually refactoring. It is absolutely possible that it will still be around. The engineering software I work on for a living was started back in 1985 and it's still selling very well, in spite of the fact there there's still some code which was a direct port (into C++) from the original Apple ][ basic! (I kid you not.)

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Respectfully, I'm not sure what new technology could obsolete ED in 10 years. VR will certainly affect lots of games, but ED handles that quite well. The models and textures are highly detailed. My prediction is that it will hold up better than some contemporary games. I certainly hope so. I'll probably be the only one in the old folks home with a HOTAS and a VR rig.



Software needs maintenance, revision, and eventually refactoring. It is absolutely possible that it will still be around. The engineering software I work on for a living was started back in 1985 and it's still selling very well, in spite of the fact there there's still some code which was a direct port (into C++) from the original Apple ][ basic! (I kid you not.)

We have *worse* than that. PDP-8 machine code ring a bell?

 

[han]

Much as I don't think Sandro would lie about this, I also find it very difficult to believe. So after 3 years and atmospheric landings (and by extension earth-likes and ammonia worlds) being arguably the most highly anticipated feature, Sandro is saying (unless misquoted?) that nothing has been even started? If that's the case, and space legs are also a long way off, just what exactly are we going to see in the post-2.4 period (short to medium term)? I mean, for explorers in particular, little can match the scale of improvements in exploration that atmospheric landings (including earth-likes and ammonia worlds) would potentially provide (assuming gameplay content comes with it of course), not to mention the additional gameplay potential for non-explorers. Yet they haven't even commenced work on atmospheric landings? <insert very grumpy face if it's true>

If I remember correctly Sandro was talking about earth like atmospheric planets and not just atmospheric planets like sand/ice planets. Pretty sure they've started working on that.

 

[NW3]

We have *worse* than that. PDP-8 machine code ring a bell?

Actually, yes. I've used one, but never programmed one, except to enter changes via the front panel switches. My earliest assembly language experience was on a CDC Cyber 74, in a strange tertiary programming language named Compass. Lucky, that's not a skill I need these days.

 

[kofeyh]

I like Braben's vision. The only issue I have ever had, is that this vision doesn't really seem to involve us.

Because, essentially, it doesn't. Braben is building a vision; we're just an enabler via funding. Anyone who remembers him talking during Kickstarter would have already seen some alarm bells, because he was, and still is, fundimentally disconnected from the actual implementation of that vision. We just help that happen, and in return, get to potter around in it.

Sandro and the entire development team, have to somehow create that vision, whilst simultaneously develop something people can actually play. Most people aren't going to be happy with essentially static set pieces. I'm pretty sure David would be chuffed without anyone playing it at all. Just this amazing universe doing it's thing entirely devoid of actual players. Because we're essentially not required for it to function.

The BGS and universe servers don't need us. We don't actually matter. This is something that is fundimentally difficult for people to grasp. It's also why people tend to pitch David against Sandro, with the whole good-cop bad-cop routine. Surely David will save us? It's the same way that Thargoids are the almost invisible threat. They too, are just set pieces in a big universe.

David, really, just doesn't care about how we do anything. He is the ideas man. The visionary. Sandro, the poor sod, has to make it happen. And he along with the entire development team cop an absolute trouncing as a consequence; and when it's something people don't like? Well David is the hero to save us all. Only that's not actually a sane thought process. Because he isn't, hasn't, and won't.

I still see this, any other week. Someone saying "But soon, David will fix all this" or "This isn't what David wanted" and I just die a little inside, because it's that sense of entirely unrealistic hope. He's not there to execute the vision, kids, the entire dev team is. And, for my money? They've done amazing things given what they have to work with. There is work to do. But it's far from unsalvageable.

Despite the occasional misstep - I believe very strongly in the entire dev team. They continue to do amazing work.

Having a sense of living history is great. But by not being directly involved in the creation of that history is making this game no different to a long winded book.

Honestly since the ship update, I'm not sure if David has stepped foot in the universe he has orchestrated; certainly not in any visible manner. I think he drove a cutter once? The most influence tends to come from external parties. The last time the developer tried anything, was the faction against the blue-haired people's princess, and I don't think the developer was quite ready for how quickly people removed that threat.

It's stood as an allegory for them I think, though, and perhaps why they just don't really take risks like that any more. The reason we don't really have any affect, why we aren't needed, is because the game, isn't essentially built for us. It's built for David. It's taken a long time for that to shift, I think, to being built for the broader community. There are signs it's changing. Which is promising.

And this is why, fundimentally, we are were we are. With so many promises. I get the impression that Sandro and the team may well want to take the game in a far more player-focused direction - I'm just uncertain if they can. I have always had hope for this game. I still do. But I have come to terms with the realisation, that this is still fundimentally David's vision, and that vision doesn't actually hinge on player action.

And will be for some time. Will it become our game at some point? Maybe. I do hope so.

Some of Sandro's recent comments, as well as the general thrust towards focusing on mechanics, suggest the notion that the player should have actual agency in the game, is incredibly important, and worth developing. Set pieces can be amazing, but they are empty without the life an entire community can give it.

Because I think when it is truley our game, Frontier and player-base alike, one we can genuinely help shape? It'll be amazing. I hope to see that. Soon. But the development team is going to need a lot of support to give us more agency in what is happening around us.

 

[Tarman]

a very very insightful post into Elite design on a conceptual level

Nice cut to the centre of the issue on the ideas plane. Repped.

 

[znôrt]

Still, the interview gave me hope that Elite will continue,

no wonder, that's the purpose of ceos giving speeches (or interviews).

honestly, i really saw nothing new from several previous ones. that's probably a good thing in that it allows to gauge the cognitive dissonance and project it into the future.

and in ten years be a far more vibrant cosmos (virtual world) than it is today. It will likely take more time on Frontier’s part, and more patience on our own.

the game will continue as long as it sells enough, that's very simple. all major platforms have been reaped now, so continuity will have to come from added content (plus the shop). while elite has a very unique and loyal core fan base, my impression is that the game has big impact on new users but overall player retention is not very good. i'm hopeful but not very optimistic.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

You know, I've been saying this since, god, 1.2? 1.3? The one thing that Frontier can do that would improve the game experience immensely immediately and without the need for any coding. Is the introduction of more embedded lore. Like, it's clear that David want's the game to represent the cyber-punk dystopia. But the problem is, the only context we get in game is that the primary antagonists in the galaxy are a mostly functional democracy, and... a fascist dictatorship. Ok. So, my question is this, where's Lazarus?

If you want me to believe the federation is completely corrupt and controlled by the Illuminati, then why is there no pirate radio host telling me about the shadowy machinations of the corporate overlords. Why are the majority of federation factions democracy and not corporitist? Like, a democratic system which has a problem with corporate over reach is not the same as a system where corps control the government, as the game seems to understand.

And this is the primary problem with Elite right now, more than exploration being bad, more than there being so little game play. The universe feels big, but it also feels empty. You know, Power play is a great example, one of the things we can haul is pamphlets of war propaganda, why can't we read that? Why don't we see weekly news stories on galnet specific to the controlling power giving us a sales pitch, telling us why we should support them? Why don't we have major faction stories in empire/fed/alliance space talking about why the [enemy's] CGs should be stopped and why [our] CGs need to succeed. Why do we not see op:eds and opinion pieces? why don't we have political pundits telling us what they think of the PP personalities? I know it's a lot to ask but why have we not seen any movement in the direction of there being minor faction specific stories, talking about their faction state and how we need to push to increase influence/defend the system from invaders/stop the pirate raids/whatever else? Why does it feel like the Galaxy isn't alive?

If anyone wants to read it I will gladly find my open letter from way back in the day. I think it was a pretty good read. And while I freely admit the wouldn't make the issues go away, I mantain it would make them less noticeable, as it would give us more of a reason to want to engage with what's there.



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom

 

[kofeyh]

Like, it's clear that David want's the game to represent the cyber-punk dystopia. But the problem is, the only context we get in game is that the primary antagonists in the galaxy are a mostly functional democracy, and... a fascist dictatorship. Ok. So, my question is this, where's Lazarus?

Because, essentially, it's window dressing to the backdrop. It's absent because all the other things that give players agency are absent, as the scenery and set-pieces have been centre stage. It's almost as though the game was built to play itself. It's certainly able to operate, without any players present at all. A self-contained microcosm.

Why does it feel like the Galaxy isn't alive?

Because it's never needed to be, to function. What we do, fundimentally doesn't matter. There are no real consequences. Yes you can flip systems, or scan stars or seek blood for the blood god on behalf of some major power. But none of it matters. Because there's no lasting impact. It's all set pieces. We could all immediately stop playing and the universe servers would tick along fine, systems would occasionally flip states, mission boards would keep refreshing, market goods would ebb and flow.

The game doesn't need us to function. That's the reality. We are an optional input. Everything is more or less pre-ordained. Even the Thargoid stuff. It's all set pieces. If you watch and listen to David, he is obsessed with a living breathing universe - with endless amazing stellar phenomena and fascinating geopolitical situations and 'the return' of flower people Thargoids - that is ostensibly self sufficient.

The reality is? The thing people can't quite put their finger on? We are optional. The game doesn't require players to function. And as such, this means we essentially have no agency within the game. It's not built to be a puzzle, with players as some of the pieces. We just get to put the pieces into the puzzle.

I've come to the realisation that essentially, as amazing as elite is? The lack of player agency and value, is one of the reasons why it feels "empty". It's not that there aren't things to do. It's just that they are, predominately, meaningless. And, it won't ever matter how much more there is to do or how complicated or layered it gets, that lack of player involvement, won't ever make it feel less empty. Perhaps this was intentional. That we are all merely one small cog in a giant machine. But even those small cogs, usually have a purpose. Or reason. We don't.

There are signs; the 'goid stuff is far more interactive, even though they are still endlessly scripted events, there is considerable thought put into it. But is anything we are doing, affecting how we end up as a species against the 'goids? Probably not. Because that would mean the game has started giving players some ability to form the future, some agency and ownership. And I'm not sure if they are willing to do that.

I'm not hating on elite here. At all. It's just the reality. It feels empty because we, fundimentally, aren't part of the machine. The biggest challenge the developer faces, is electing to make us part of the machine, and giving the player base the ability to actually influence outcomes in-game (and not just via endless forum posts on one topic, or another).

 

[amigacooke]

Lost interest in the vision, for me it's now all about implementation.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

The game universe doesn't need us to function. That's the reality. We are an optional input. Everything is more or less pre-ordained. Even the Thargoid stuff heat death of the universe. It's all set pieces. If you watch and listen to David Odin/Yhaweh/Zuse/The Flying Spaghetti Monster, he is obsessed with a living breathing universe - with endless amazing stellar phenomena and fascinating geopolitical situations and 'the return' of flower people Thargoids nothingness - that is essentially self sufficient.

The reality is? The thing people can't quite put their finger on? We are optional. The game universe doesn't require players humans to function. And as such, this means we essentially have no agency within the game universe. It's not built to be a puzzle, with players humans as some of the pieces. We just get to put the pieces into the puzzle.

I've come to the realisation that essentially, as amazing as elite life is? The lack of player human agency and value, is one of the reasons why it feels "empty". It's not that there aren't things to do. It's just that they are, predominately, meaningless. And, it won't ever matter how much more there is to do or how complicated or layered it gets, that lack of player involvement, won't ever make it feel less empty.

FTFY

That feel when on the cusp of nihilism.

But seriously, everything you said, is equally applicable to the actual, real life universe. Except that humanity and it's contributions to the universe are actually much smaller than our contributions to the Elite universe as players. Yet, most people, if asked, will tell you that they feel that their lives and actions have meaning, and the fact of the matter is, they're even correct, their lives and actions just don't have ultimate meaning. Similarly, WOW is a pointless monotonous grind designed to consume your time and extract money from you. But people clearly feel it has value, they pay monthly for the privilege.

If Elite's universe felt vibrant and alive, if it felt as though the galaxy had people living in it, and expanding into its frontiers creating their stories, striving to leave their mark on the world in which they live as a real, living, breathing, universe full of people would. 99% of people just wouldn't even question it. There would be significantly less discontent if things just felt better, even if that feeling were illusory and entirely manufactured. The game has limited resources with which to communicate this to the players. But it does actually have resources to do so, and I would love to see them used.



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom

 

[Deareim]

When you hear, it looks like we are not talking about the same game.

then it started to be funny when he saisd "simulation".

Got me once with his b*******, not twice.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Much as I don't think Sandro would lie about this, I also find it very difficult to believe. So after 3 years and atmospheric landings (and by extension earth-likes and ammonia worlds) being arguably the most highly anticipated feature, Sandro is saying (unless misquoted?) that nothing has been even started? If that's the case, and space legs are also a long way off, just what exactly are we going to see in the post-2.4 period (short to medium term)? I mean, for explorers in particular, little can match the scale of improvements in exploration that atmospheric landings (including earth-likes and ammonia worlds) would potentially provide (assuming gameplay content comes with it of course), not to mention the additional gameplay potential for non-explorers. Yet they haven't even commenced work on atmospheric landings? <insert very grumpy face if it's true>

If Sandro said that the OP should bring along a quote or link. DB has previously said,

“We have ongoing work on planets, including atmospheres, planetary life, walking about and lots of other very exciting things for the future.”

 

[Toumal]

Software needs maintenance, revision, and eventually refactoring.

A minor nitpit but... refactoring doesn't mean what you think it does

 

[Kaltern]

Because, essentially, it's window dressing to the backdrop. It's absent because all the other things that give players agency are absent, as the scenery and set-pieces have been centre stage. It's almost as though the game was built to play itself. It's certainly able to operate, without any players present at all. A self-contained microcosm.



Because it's never needed to be, to function. What we do, fundimentally doesn't matter. There are no real consequences. Yes you can flip systems, or scan stars or seek blood for the blood god on behalf of some major power. But none of it matters. Because there's no lasting impact. It's all set pieces. We could all immediately stop playing and the universe servers would tick along fine, systems would occasionally flip states, mission boards would keep refreshing, market goods would ebb and flow.

The game doesn't need us to function. That's the reality. We are an optional input. Everything is more or less pre-ordained. Even the Thargoid stuff. It's all set pieces. If you watch and listen to David, he is obsessed with a living breathing universe - with endless amazing stellar phenomena and fascinating geopolitical situations and 'the return' of flower people Thargoids - that is ostensibly self sufficient.

The reality is? The thing people can't quite put their finger on? We are optional. The game doesn't require players to function. And as such, this means we essentially have no agency within the game. It's not built to be a puzzle, with players as some of the pieces. We just get to put the pieces into the puzzle.

I've come to the realisation that essentially, as amazing as elite is? The lack of player agency and value, is one of the reasons why it feels "empty". It's not that there aren't things to do. It's just that they are, predominately, meaningless. And, it won't ever matter how much more there is to do or how complicated or layered it gets, that lack of player involvement, won't ever make it feel less empty. Perhaps this was intentional. That we are all merely one small cog in a giant machine. But even those small cogs, usually have a purpose. Or reason. We don't.

There are signs; the 'goid stuff is far more interactive, even though they are still endlessly scripted events, there is considerable thought put into it. But is anything we are doing, affecting how we end up as a species against the 'goids? Probably not. Because that would mean the game has started giving players some ability to form the future, some agency and ownership. And I'm not sure if they are willing to do that.

I'm not hating on elite here. At all. It's just the reality. It feels empty because we, fundimentally, aren't part of the machine. The biggest challenge the developer faces, is electing to make us part of the machine, and giving the player base the ability to actually influence outcomes in-game (and not just via endless forum posts on one topic, or another).

Apparently I've repped you too much, so a virtual one will have to do.

This is exactly what I've been trying to convey, but (which is very unlike me) I couldn't quite find the right wording. It's exactly right, that if every single player just didn't log in, the game would continue onwards and it would be just the same. Our presence in the galaxy is completely optional, and has no bearing on anything whatsoever.

That's the absolute number one issue and it needs to be addressed.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Lost interest in the vision, for me it's now all about implementation.

Will come with 3.0

 

[kofeyh]

FTFY

That feel when on the cusp of nihilism.

But seriously, everything you said, is equally applicable to the actual, real life universe. Except that humanity and it's contributions to the universe are actually much smaller than our contributions to the Elite universe as players.

Heh. Thanks. I think?

In the real life universe, what we do at a universe scale doesn't really change anything, but we're doing a great job of a once-over on the planet, and cthulhu knows what we'd do to other planets. But that's beside the point; the game acts as though we can essentially do whatever we like, but the points don't matter. You can shoot people. Only they get up again. You can flip a system. But it'll flip back all by itself. You can drive a PP faction to the edge, but you can't actually defeat it.

Nothing matters. What we're doing, now, here? In reality? Matters. It's just the scale that changes. But in game? Nothing matters. Regardless of the scale. There's a fundamental difference there. In short; there are no consequences. When there is no consequence, no sense of agency, no, uh, 'skin in the game', it feels empty. The only thing that has rekindled some of that, for me at least, is having a hard-mode account. But even that, is more about artificial increase in risk and excitement (and at times, mild panic!). But, crucially, it's not any more immersive. Because I still can't fundimentally achieve any change.

If Elite's universe felt vibrant and alive, if it felt as though the galaxy had people living in it, and expanding into its frontiers creating their stories, striving to leave their mark on the world in which they live as a real, living, breathing, universe full of people would. 99% of people just wouldn't even question it.

Sure, however if that doesn't include players? If the entire universe can continue and whatever we do, has no bearing? Then there's no player agency, no notion of impact or consequence. There's a lot of activity already. Lots of AI comms. Station comms. The bubble has expanded considerably, and Colonia is spearheading growth in an entirely new area. That it is inanely repetitive is a give-in. You might find adding what you suggest, will just create a cacophony of noise. It's a bit of a fine art to balance imho.

But it's not really the quantity/ quality of mechanics, friend, although they would help immeasurably, it's that what we do, doesn't mean anything. Still. You can insert as much "artificial" life as you like, it's still artificial. It's when there are consequences, when what we do has even the smallest of influence, here and there, to drive a narrative? That's when people won't question it. They'll be too busy living it.

The universe feels empty, not because it's just a bit short on simulated life, it's that there is no life. Us. Doing what we do. Little nudges. That build to game shifting outcomes. But if you listen to David speak, it's pretty clear he wants a fairly autonomous environment, that expresses all these amazing things. David's vision, ultimately, doesn't include players. There's a narrative, but it's limited because of the desire for the universe to be an open world sandbox.

They talk about how we might influence how the Thargoid story builds, but really we're not seeing that. There's just little hooks here and there and commanders run around "discovering" all the set pieces Frontier have crafted. We're, still, essentially, just along for the ride. I agree, I'd love to see more 'life'. But without that including us, as players, it'll still be just as empty as it is now. Just more of it.

edit: it probably sounds like I am being unnecessarily hard on Frontier. I'm not. I full recognise that building what they are building is not easy. There are no easy answers. It's all varying levels of crazy all the way down. My point, is that I think they are being far too protective of the universe, and just not allowing the player-base to fundimentally shift or drive where development goes. Things at times feel stale, because they are stale; and it's something I believe Frontier will grapple with more, as time goes on.