Star Citizen Thread v6

[Zetta]

[This all really stems from the "cargo taking time to load" thing, and I'm surmising that the time delays we're talking about are in excess of a few minutes. If we're really only talking about delays of a few minutes to load all the cargo then this is all moot, and that time could be filled with other busy work like refuelling / restocking. In the end, what's important to me is that there aren't large periods of "dead" time where nothing interesting is happening, or where there's an encouragement to pay extra to expedite matters.]

In this video from April 2017 they show 13 minutes downtime for unloading 8 cargo units. What the final figures will be and how it scales is anyone's guess. But it's approximately 1.5 minutes per unit in that video, or 5 hours for a full ship....

 

[frostypaw]

I know watching someone else fly doesn't always give an accurate portrayal of how it "feels". All I can see in that vid (and a I watched 4.5 mins of it) is Yaw... Those fighters must have some weird inertial damping chairs, because you can yaw as fast as you like and suffer no ill effects, but if you pitch up too hard you start to grey out?

Must be "rule of cool" in play?

The localised physics grid only applies to cool things like being able to run around, then suddenly stops when it reaches the pilot's head because that too is cool.

Flight model appears to be somewhere between Wing Commander and Freelancer - not sure it'll change as I think the whales are mostly ex:freelancer and would rather 3rd person mouse control..... now I'm (arguably) not on the Spectrum but has anyone seen a poll on desired flight model on there lately?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

or 5 hours for a full ship....

i just do not see that happening.
I desperately want stuff like loading and unloading times in ed / sc when there is stuff to do.... but 5 hrs is taking the p...... dare i say i would almost suspect they are looking for an excuse to remove the time by making it so horrible and then using the excuse "we tried it but people did not like it"

i would suggest most folk who want loading times want a "nod" to realism not actual realistic loading times

 

[MarktJones]

I didn't notice any missing thrusters and the experience was awesome. It's definitely a space superiority fighter! Plenty of firepower and maneuverability. There's plenty of You Tube videos that show that.

I'm more into utilitarian vessels myself but for Squadron 42, the Sabre is something to deal serious damage in. Right now, it's pretty dominant in Arena Commander.

Once the world is fleshed out and if they don't nerf it, players will have to get crafty when up against other players that are flying Sabres. Like EMP and EWT (Electronic Warfare Tactics).

The Sabre in SC is like what the FDL used to be in ED. Combat dominator.

But it's a plane, it would be rubbish in space.

 

[Zetta]

i just do not see that happening.
I desperately want stuff like loading and unloading times in ed / sc when there is stuff to do.... but 5 hrs is taking the p...... dare i say i would almost suspect they are looking for an excuse to remove the time by making it so horrible and then using the excuse "we tried it but people did not like it"

i would suggest most folk who want loading times want a "nod" to realism not actual realistic loading times

I highly doubt it as well, I only posted that to show how ludicrous it would be if they used linear scaling for times.

It's definitely going to be something difficult to balance, a lot of people will want to maximise profits and anything that eats into their time is costing them money. It'll be interesting to see how they deal with it.

Going by that video, that's 13 minutes to unload, will it then take another 13 minutes to put 8 new crates on the ship?

 

[xyphic]

dare i say i would almost suspect they are looking for an excuse to remove the time by making it so horrible and then using the excuse "we tried it but people did not like it"

i would suggest most folk who want loading times want a "nod" to realism not actual realistic loading times

Long loading / unloading times are not necessarily a terrible thing assuming they occur in real-time (not game time) and there's something compelling to do while you're waiting. It's that latter thing that's the issue for me: I don't view social or shopping hubs as compelling. I sincerely hope I'm wrong but I very much see this going down the route of 'pay UEC to expedite loading'.

 

[Memnoch]

But it's a plane, it would be rubbish in space.

That depends on how CIG dress it up. If they say its a space ship, its a space ship. If they say it's a teapot, to them at least it's a teapot.

They can make it fly how they want regardless of how it looks. It's then a question of whether it breaks immersion for you as a player. If it doesn't look or feel right then you will now doubt be disappointed. Just don't fly that particular ship in that case.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

That depends on how CIG dress it up. If they say its a space ship, its a space ship. If they say it's a teapot, to them at least it's a teapot.

They can make it fly how they want regardless of how it looks. It's then a question of whether it breaks immersion for you as a player. If it doesn't look or feel right then you will now doubt be disappointed. Just don't fly that particular ship in that case.

That's fine, but if I see someone else's teapot go whizzing past my ship, that doesn't help my immersion much.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

That's fine, but if I see someone else's teapot go whizzing past my ship, that doesn't help my immersion much.

Track down "Button Moon", it has similar fidelity...

But the moon is too big for SC...

 

[Memnoch]

Agreed! I would like to see some intelligent flight characteristics for a ship that clearly looks like a plane as we understand it. That "spaceship" might behave averagely in space but excel when in atmosphere. A ship that looks like a space ship, with no visible control surfaces that might offer lift etc., that might excel is space but behave poorly in atmosphere. With this realistically modelled, a player has to choose the right tool for the job. Or perhaps have a large enough ship that has the capability of launching aerospace fighters, to lean on Mechwarrior for a moment.

 

[Maruun]

Well making a Character Editor alone is a way easier task than modeling, animating and coding space legs don't you think? One is cosmetics alone the other opens the door for greater and deeper gameplay mechanics. Walking on Ship interiors, Multicrew, Visiting cities, EVA, FPS etc

Are you seriously argueing about how hard it is to make a "be a pilot" game when your entire engine is based on a FPS engine? That comes with most mechanics in a barebone stock function?

 

[MTBFritz]

i just do not see that happening.
I desperately want stuff like loading and unloading times in ed / sc when there is stuff to do.... but 5 hrs is taking the p...... dare i say i would almost suspect they are looking for an excuse to remove the time by making it so horrible and then using the excuse "we tried it but people did not like it"

i would suggest most folk who want loading times want a "nod" to realism not actual realistic loading times

This rubs me like an attempt (not by you, I talk about CiG because frankly I believe thats exactly what they would have to say on that matter) to blame the backers for CiGs shortcomings. Its not the backers fault if the loading system is bad. Thats CiGs responsibility and the best approach to ensure you are actually investing resources and time into a feature people want is to provide an alpha sample and let people fiddle around with it then wait for feedback and change the system accordingly. Now we dont even have a loading system at the moment and people might argue that this is exactly what CiG is doing...providing an alpha sample for people to test.

For one, creating an alpha feature for people to test takes them an awful long time making me question if there are any designers working on this aspect at all PLUS the theoretical functionality of loading already brings up tons of questions and doubts. If the mechanic would be "in the works" and they had people thinking about its implementation they "should" provide more information or address the concerns brought up by the community. The last alpha project I was involved with had me and a group of other people being invited to a presentation. We were shown a demo and had the opportunity to ask questions. Between the 6 of us we absolutely DRILLED both the lead designer and CEO of the team. Not only did we come up with questions about future implementations but we also challenged their design decisions so far. The big difference to CiG is that these 2 people had the competence and knowledge to answer every single one of them and they also admitted flat out when they didnt think of a scenario brought up by us. It wasnt even an alpha sample, it was an in-editor footage about how the designers imagined the game to run just like the ATVs. The difference here is that this tiny team faced their backers in live Q&As and was able to answer questions within 10 seconds flat without using their hands. The CEO also was deeply involved in the actual coding and could contribute to the questioning. This feature they showed us wasnt even implemented yet but they had a very clear and detailed roadmap for it and were willing to discuss it.

So yeah....I really do know how "open development" and "competence" look like in game development. Star Citizen is not what it claims to be.

If CiG reads all these suggestions and questions but still decides to continue its development "under wraps" and only releasing it once its "done" then chances are high that the system is not what the majority of backers wanted and simply stating "get used to it, this is what WE wanted to build" wont make for big sales. Something else that comes to mind is CRoberts obsession with polish and fidelity. He will stop a release if he feels a single pixel is misplaced and if something doesnt "feel right" he thinks its okay to stop or drop the whole thing. We are talking about an alpha here. Things dont need to be perfect, they need to provide the functionality. Hell they could have installed placeholders for NPCs, you know, cubes with a name on it. Its ugly but it would ve given them the opportunity to work on AI routines, AI pathfinding and mission design without being distracted and strained by having to come up with a perfect character model with release-state fidelity and polish because THATS whats actually the problem with Star Citizen as a whole I think.


Looks to me as if CRoberts doesnt know what an alpha is.

Do you really expect Star Citizen to look even better at release once they polish stuff? IMO the current PU already shows the absolute limits the Cryengine can provide in a live environment.

Just think about it. You are a developer with CiG and you are working on NPC design and implementation. You think you can come up with a prototype and let the AI implementation guys work with that while you continue your work on animation or whatnot. You design your first temporary NPC in 2 or 3 hours and upload it to the AI folks. 20 minutes later you are called into a personal meeting with CRoberts and his gal. Both have your work on their screen and absolutely RIP you and your work apart complaining about its quality, its fidelity, your lack of motivation and generally wave their hands so much that you are afraid they are going to hit you. After a 2 hour long flaming you are released with the objective to come up with something "worth my time" (CRoberts) and your current work is dropped meaning the AI folks are on hold until you actually deliver something they can work with. Even tho you did your work and provided a sample that would allow the development as a whole to continue even if not perfect you are suddenly put under pressure to create a polished release-state asset that will work in experimental conditions. 40 hours of inhuman labor later you managed to polish your existing prototype to a degree that is competitive to current released titles in a locked frame. CRoberts is pleased for a "first draft" but then says "but wait.....it doesnt move or interact with its environment? Well okay then, meet me again tomorrow when you have all the animation and lightning done". You try to explain to him what kind of effort this will require but he simply waves his hands at you and says "I dont wanne know....make it happen or we ll find someone who does make it happen, understand?". You return to your desk absolutely crushed and desperate because you actually know what CRoberts wants but you cant give it to him in such a short time. The AI team is still on hold and along with the pressure from the management you are also constantly distracted and hassled by fellow developers wondering what the hold-up is. And that is your current work-cycle. You try to implement a "perfect" character model that shows all the fidelity and polish of a release-state game and hand it to the AI folks only to get your asset returned all the time because some new mechanic "breaks" some of your work requiring you to update your design. This will claim all your attention and work hours. You are unable to continue your work on NPC concepts and prototypes in order to come up with a solid foundation because you are completely gripped by your first design.

Even if you have the courage to stand up and defend your work and try to tell your boss how things work in the "real world" (because chances are you already have some experience in your field of work) CRoberts will probably just replace you with someone new. And that guy is really out of luck then because he has to pick up where you left and chances are your documentation is non-existent or lacking so more time is wasted in order to bring the new guy up to speed or come up with a new design alltogether. Of course the new guy runs into the exact same problem you did.

Current stuff in Star Citizen doesnt work out. Things take a lot of time to develop and CRoberts goes on stage promoting features and providing timelines he knows are either bogus or cannot be held. Now a competent and responsible leader would take a good hard look (not only does he have to know how bad it really is, he must know how bad it looks to an outsider as well, he cannot be that blind) at the current mess and try to identify the problem in order to enable progress and development. This could mean dropping certain impossible features (PG birds) and forget certain future-aspects of the game (biomes, farming) for the moment in order to allow the implementation of a real Alpha version. Of course he wont be able to do that if the problem is CRoberts himself. People trying to tell him are simply "haters" or "goons" or "smarties" and can be dismissed instantly even tho their opinion and advice might hold a lot of merrit. Dont expect fellow management to wake this guy up. His wife had 2 kids from him and the other guy is his brother. Both of them know exactly how CRoberts thinks and operates. Underlings who have the courage to actually do this are simply replaced and blamed openly.

The above scenario is theoretical. I dont have any information at my disposal that could prove this is the problem. But it sounds pretty convincing I think

An approach like CiG chose does actually work. You "can" polish and perfect each single piece of the puzzle before you put it together but the reality is that it takes magnitudes more time and resources to accomplish then the "efficient" way (make a picture, cut it up, file the edges, done). CRoberts simply doesnt have the time required to finish his dream game before his funds run out. At the current speed of development we are talking about 20 or 30 years from now and thats probably not even enough. People probably know this in their gut and many try to satisfy themselves with the release of a MVP even tho thats not what everybody is harping about. People harp about the dream game that was pitched in 2012, then 2014 and now constantly in ATVs. Only that will probably never come. At least not from CiG.

 

[JohnMice]

OK I give up - is he hiding in the cupboard?

I'm really looking forwards to 3.0. Do you reckon it'll load in whole planets of data at once? What will the download size be? Have CIG said anything about that?

More like in the Pilot's seat hehe, easy to miss so here's help:

Spoiler

No idea about download size or "how" loading will work out, the core game experience is to only have a visible loading screen when entering the universe, from then on all data is seamlessly loaded.

First off, Kudos for the effort mate. I ll respect that amount of time and sweat you put into the post alas the links you post dont hold much water.

Link 1 I cant count higher then 6, take it to 7 because of the person taking the screenshot but where exactly is that screenshot from? The source is important. If its from an ATV its smoke and mirror and non-existant. If you took it from a gameplay video showing these 9 people in action please provide the video link.

See above if you still need help with counting.

Screenshot is from a org play about a year ago: https://forums.starcitizenbase.com/topic/20317-imperium-crewing-starfarer/

From said thread:

-"A couple of pics from our gaming last night. At one point (IIRC) there were 11 of us on this Starfarer. "
-"I think we had 18 people in that instance. It was pretty cool. Can't wait to get the whole of Imperium together in SPACE!"
-"Yup.. over an hour of play, and just a few client crashes. Stability is a lot better."
-"We had a blast on that Starfarer, we held our own for a bit against 2 vanguards and a connie before they took us out! Juntau took us to grim hex to start a fight it was really awesome for the first time rolling with the org!"

Link 2 is a video that shows at most 2 people and 1-2 ships. Why you take it as an example for 21 players + 21 ships is beyond me. Also that fantasy number regarding size is pure emptiness, hard to credit them for that.

1-2 ships? Did you really watched the video? Look bellow, every yellow circle is a ship and at least one player.

Spoiler

There are 15 ship's in front of this pilot to save you the trouble of counting. And that's just in the starting area.

Link 3 is a disconnected module same as the hangar and doesnt say anything at all, is Arc corp city still as buggy (pun intended) as it was upon release?

So you provide a lot of quantity only the quality isnt up to the task.

ArcCorp yes is a disconnected module with the same limitations as the PU, it's capped at 40+ players (double of the PU) because it doesn't have to include Ship's in the equation.

Like I posted before, a custom network solution was made for Star Citizen and presented in-depth in this ATV(13m10s):

Spoiler

[video=youtube;L4m2nwn5wT8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4m2nwn5wT8&feature=youtu.be&t=13m10s[/video]

...You know I didn´t backed this project to watch fancy videos&demos or to listen the weekly reports&Roberts tales,I wanted to play the GAME...

Why not wait until its release before investing in it then?

Crowdfunding was made to help projects come to life that couldn't get investment through the traditional methods otherwise.
And why didn't projects get funding by the traditional methods? Simple, because there's a bigger risk inherent to them in the eyes of people that provide funding for a living, in Star Citizen case , game publishers.

If all one wants is to enjoy finished games they should stay away from crowdfunding altogether, . And before someone bring up "delays" and "broken promises" that's an integral part of any ambitious video-game project, it's up to the pledger to inform itself about what and to who they are giving their money in advance. Things change all the time, unexpected things happen that are impossible to predict when you are basically pitching an idea to get a proof of interest.

Its funny, because where you see something positive here, i see something that adds risk to the project. The whole sandworm thing was disengenious and showed a terrible lack of creativity. And on top, i doubt its something they can ever release into the main game, so its wasted effort. I mean, if the game ever releases with that in it, i'm sure Frank Herbert's estate will be issuing a C&D immediately.

If there's something that should be unanimous is that Chris Roberts and Star Citizen are not afraid to take risks. That's another of the reasons of why it got so much backing.

Sandworm or any other "feature" shown in demos are not disingenuous because they just that, demos of the direction the game is heading to.

I don't see why it can't release into the main game, there's been sandworms in mmorpgs for ages now, World Of Warcraft and the opening of Silithius comes to mind. As for artists issuing C&D or any other of the copyright claims are ofc laughable and have no ground whatsoever.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

There are 15 ship's in front of this pilot to save you the trouble of counting. And that's just in the starting area.

When the pilot was pootling about around the Crusader station I did see lots of static dots on the radar representing ships still docked, which was further reinforced when they were flying back and forth and not seeing more than a couple of other ships in motion.

The dogfighting that was shown was all 1v1 or 1v2 from the flick throughs I saw?

Did I miss a bit where there was a 16 ship spitball "Bogeys like fireflies..." moment in there? Sorry.

 

[n4p0l3on]

If there's something that should be unanimous is that Chris Roberts and Star Citizen are not afraid to take risks. That's another of the reasons of why it got so much backing.

There are differences between acceptable risks that can pay itself back with substantial reward and attempts that are downright futile. Many features they want to implement into SC falls on the later category.

As for backers, let's be honest, most backers and gamers in general have no idea about what is achievable and what isn't, in relation with the above paragraph in software/game development, and CIG exploited their ignorance.

 

[frostypaw]

No idea about download size or "how" loading will work out, the core game experience is to only have a visible loading screen when entering the universe, from then on all data is seamlessly loaded.

You HOPE.

There's a distinct difference between "this is what happens" and "this is what we HOPE will happen" - it's well worth remembering.

I love all this celebrating at having a handful of players in the same instance, it really scales how far they've gotten when other games manage so many more.

 

[Almighty Bob]

-"A couple of pics from our gaming last night. At one point (IIRC) there were 11 of us on this Starfarer. "
-"I think we had 18 people in that instance. It was pretty cool. Can't wait to get the whole of Imperium together in SPACE!"
-"Yup.. over an hour of play, and just a few client crashes. Stability is a lot better."
-"We had a blast on that Starfarer, we held our own for a bit against 2 vanguards and a connie before they took us out! Juntau took us to grim hex to start a fight it was really awesome for the first time rolling with the org!"

Link 2 is a video that shows at most 2 people and 1-2 ships. Why you take it as an example for 21 players + 21 ships is beyond me. Also that fantasy number regarding size is pure emptiness, hard to credit them for that.


There are 15 ship's in front of this pilot to save you the trouble of counting. And that's just in the starting area.


Crowdfunding was made to help projects come to life that couldn't get investment through the traditional methods otherwise.
And why didn't projects get funding by the traditional methods? Simple, because there's a bigger risk inherent to them in the eyes of people that provide funding for a living, in Star Citizen case , game publishers.

.

John I have had great experiences similar to you in my org. My understanding is that the current PU is capped at 16 ships and 24 players. Dr Smart has changed his view and accepts that this is correct and that the limit is not 8 players.
I have had a smooth experience at SPK with 10 ships.

This is all nonsense anyway as the current offerings are just a placeholder, to give us something to do and test some of the features that may end up in the final game ( and to encourage funding) The final game will hopefully have a cap of hundreds of people and ships. 3.0 will still be 16 and 24 I believe

 

[Sir.Tj]

Thread will be temp closed for review.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Thread re-opened.

Please remember to discuss the game not each other and stay on topic.

 

[Ian Skippy]

This is all nonsense anyway as the current offerings are just a placeholder, to give us something to do and test some of the features that may end up in the final game ( and to encourage funding) The final game will hopefully have a cap of hundreds of people and ships. 3.0 will still be 16 and 24 I believe

You do understand that it scales exponentially? Getting it smooth at 24 would be great. Smooth at 32 is a bit of a dream considering the type of connections people have and how it all works. 'hundreds of ships' is so far of any reasonable estimate that I have difficulty understanding why anyone would ever expect anything like that. Its akin to saying "At the Olympics [athlete X] will hopefully run the 100m sprint under a second, although it will still be around 9 seconds at the next qualification match I believe.".