Star Citizen Thread v6

[Vasious]

I also remember the outcry during Elite Dangerous' premium beta at having to haul biowaste to produce tea in sufficient quantities, and I believe Frontier's intention was for ships and components to also be produced via natural resources, but I don't know if that was ever implemented (I seem to remember it being much harder to find stuff during PB) of was quietly dropped along with the more realistic Economic Sim.

I dont recall inputs ever increasing outputs in ED or non commodities (weapons and internals) running out of stock.

With a hundred or so systems, or a few hundred economic nodes, I dont see why SC economic plan couldnt work, in theory, if the NPC population is abstracted.

Assume that everything gets all the inputs needed carried out by NPCs, and generate them doing the approapriate activites in the approtiate systems.

If Players then interfear for good or bad, then have that change the state of the node.
If they pirate, then put the node in a state or short, that flows up the line and generates the missions for supply and anti pirate operations.

Over supply of inputs by players lead first to increased manufuturing but then price drop offs, and possible mantufatiry nodes chaing what they prodcue if each can produce a range of items, depending on profitability

Akin to in Victoria Two the Artisan Pops, looking at the cost of inputs on the markst vs the cost of finish goods to try to make a profit, to buy their life, every day, and luxuary needs, changing their output based on market forces.

Nodes in a system could have a common market, then be allow to trade one two and three jumps away at ever increasing costs to meet needs and determine what is most profiable.

Akin to the Local, Sphere and Global markets in Vicky2

Have a RNG for crop blights creating famines, and outbreaks, to cause Pops to not work, and increase the local demand for food and or medicine.

That isnt to say as soon as players get involved it wont all go belly up and the UEE suffers a market crash, but something they should be able to make for players to break.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Well I can easily see that 100 systems, err 5-10 systems, err 5 systems, err 1 system, err 3 moons will provide a complex living galaxy which will allow for such complexity of player-driven supply and demand :/

 

[Mu77ley]

With a hundred or so systems, or a few hundred economic nodes, I dont see why SC economic plan couldnt work, in theory, if the NPC population is abstracted.

Creating a stable artificial economy with zero exploits open is incredibly even in a single player game, let alone a multiplayer one.

Plus, don't forget we're talking about this being created by a development team who can't even get doors to work properly.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

if the NPC population is abstracted.

As i recall though, isn't one of the "selling points" that thanks to supersublisipsumption and NPCs outnumbering players by 10 to 1, and how the game will make all NPCs behave in super fidelitious ways, with never before seen levels of AI, really, bigly, skynet levels of AI here....

(sorry, lost it there for a moment)

... that nothing will happen unless a player or NPC does something. So according to the design, NPCs will actually not be abstracted, but actually running around doing stuff, taking missions, make deliveries, etc.

 

[MTBFritz]

I was starting to wonder why there was all this discussion going about realistic economy and production chains with yet not a single mention of any of the X games that have these as their main feature. Having this kind of deeply simulated economy is a great thing on paper, until you find yourself with your newly bought super destroyer and discover that no one in the entire universe has in stock the six 2 GJ shields required to defend its hull, and the only two station you found that had Photon Pulse Cannons available could only provide three of them out of the 12 you wanted, because one station is out of quantum tubes for production and meat and wheat for feeding the workers, while the other has run out of microchips. Then you'll have to wait for NPCs' to restock them on their own (could take real time months or not happen at all) or provide them yourself. Or even better, leave the bare-hull destroyer where it is and go set up an entire production chain of your own. Works wonders with the type of single player economy-based gameplay that the X games are aimed at, but I wouldn't wish to inflict that struggle on anyone in a MMO setting. Let alone expecting it to work, in a MMO setting.

And as its a MMO imagine that you are slowly grinding the materials needed to equip your destroyer and another player comes along and grabs the stockpiled microchips of which you only needed 20 more to begin production but hey you could be lucky, he might sell the microchips you provided yourself back to you at a premium prize (kinda like what CiG is currently doing with merchandise articles)

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I dont recall inputs ever increasing outputs in ED or non commodities (weapons and internals) running out of stock.

Then you have missed ED Beta 2 fun OMG forum went into complete meltdown. 'This trade route is dry whaaa', 'Can't find this power distributor for Cobra, can't melt newbies'. Ohhh, glorious days.

Also ED NPCs are abstracted in regards of economy - goods movement is simulated according to supply/demand. We as commanders skim the surface, but can turn a tide or gain profits if there are corner cases which NPCs left of us to pick up (most likely governed by thresholds).

 

[Vasious]

Creating a stable artificial economy with zero exploits open is incredibly even in a single player game, let alone a multiplayer one.

Plus, don't forget we're talking about this being created by a development team who can't even get doors to work properly.

Not asure of the reali life one is free from exploits.
The example game I am basing my assumption that the idea could work, wasnt perfect either.

Then you have missed ED Beta 2 fun OMG forum went into complete meltdown. 'This trade route is dry whaaa', 'Can't find this power distributor for Cobra, can't melt newbies'. Ohhh, glorious days.

Also ED NPCs are abstracted in regards of economy - goods movement is simulated according to supply/demand. We as commanders skim the surface, but can turn a tide or gain profits if there are corner cases which NPCs left of us to pick up (most likely governed by thresholds).

I was there I just dont recall that.


Agony, If an NPC is mining an Asteroid and no Player is there to see it, does it really exist but for an abraction in a table of location and actvitiy? Or more worryingly do the dream when asleep?

I am really not sure what to make of the all NPCs similated

Finite NPCs will only be rendered extinct

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Not asure of the reali life one is free from exploits.
The example game I am basing my assumption that the idea could work, wasnt perfect either.



I was there I just dont recall that.


Agony, If an NPC is mining an Asteroid and no Player is there to see it, does it really exist but for an abraction in a table of location and actvitiy? Or more worryingly do the dream when asleep?

I am really not sure what to make of the all NPCs similated

Finite NPCs will only be rendered extinct

The NPC doesn't exist persistently. They are created when a player enters an instance based on the state of the system and the BGS. When the player leaves it is destroyed.

 

[Ian Skippy]

With a hundred or so systems, or a few hundred economic nodes, I dont see why SC economic plan couldnt work, in theory, if the NPC population is abstracted.

Thats the whole point: SC claims they will all be modeled and you see see them all. If an NPC ship has their engineer to do something, the engineer would walk to place X in the ship, pull lever Y to cause the ship to do something. Its absurd, and no sane person would ever believe that would either work (or attempted, I am simply not buying the idea that CIG wont just blackbox it). But it fits with the idea 'you can secretly board the ship, intercept the engineer, stealth-kill him using the best FPS experience ever to sabotage the ship, with other NPC crewmembers realistically reacting towards what is happening."

It is so clearly aimed at not making a game but selling dreams to people who want a game that dynamically creates the coolest moments of sci-fi films and series. It is not how games work, or can ever work. I dont believe for one second even a single actual CIG dev believes it either, its just CR saying 'yes to all'.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Thats the whole point: SC claims they will all be modeled and you see see them all. If an NPC ship has their engineer to do something, the engineer would walk to place X in the ship, pull lever Y to cause the ship to do something. Its absurd, and no sane person would ever believe that would either work (or attempted, I am simply not buying the idea that CIG wont just blackbox it). But it fits with the idea 'you can secretly board the ship, intercept the engineer, stealth-kill him using the best FPS experience ever to sabotage the ship, with other NPC crewmembers realistically reacting towards what is happening."

It is so clearly aimed at not making a game but selling dreams to people who want a game that dynamically creates the coolest moments of sci-fi films and series. It is not how games work, or can ever work. I dont believe for one second even a single actual CIG dev believes it either, its just CR saying 'yes to all'.

For real? That's what they say? Lol, that makes no sense. Why would anyone simulate NPCs, when they aren't needed as a representation in a game instance?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

For real? That's what they say? Lol, that makes no sense. Why would anyone simulate NPCs, when they aren't needed as a representation in a game instance?

Because if they are not simulated, they are not real, and then it is not deep gameplay, because NPCs are just numbers in complex statistic algorithm and not 'reaaaaal man'. It is useless to argue that you can still create immersive experience without wasting resources for useless simulation. Because it is not fully simulated, then it is not real, and therefore shallow.

Or something, at least this is how it always go down in Dangerous forum.

edit: if you think about it it flows from players wanting to have very strong grip on controlling reality in game. This subject has come and gone many times in ED cycles. Bashing and blowing up simulated NPCs to do a blockade for example is something these people have dream about since EvE launch. It is basically about perception and how many gamers have hard time to switch brain off and role play without considerable amount of help from game. They know it is just numbers, stats, and they can't buy then that this NPC in instance is something they want to consider an actual in-game person.

 

[BurnyBurns]

For real? That's what they say? Lol, that makes no sense. Why would anyone simulate NPCs, when they aren't needed as a representation in a game instance?

Because it sounds so cool! And it makes people with expendable income who don't stop to think about feasibility or sense throw money after you.

Edit: It's also a convenient way to gloss over glaring holes in your game mechanic concepts.

"But loading a ship for 20 minutes is a brain dead, menial task few people want to do twice?" "Don't worry. You can hire AI NPCs to do it for you."
"But going by its description, I cannot control the 5000$ spaceship-.jpg alone that I've bought because I had more money than sense. What shall I do if there aren't enough people to play with me?" "Don't worry. You can hire AI NPCs."
"Elite is really stooopid. There are no persistent NPCs! They all just spawn randomly and I cannot see them in supercruise anymore. Will Star Citizen do it for realz?" "Don't worry, Star Citizen is gonna fix dat!"

Five years of the above and 150$ mio. later, there's still not a single non hostile non-scripted NPC in Star Citizen to interact with. You can count one and one together yourself, unless you're still daydreaming of Star Citizen turning into something else than into various states of a wrecked train.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

For real? That's what they say? Lol, that makes no sense. Why would anyone simulate NPCs, when they aren't needed as a representation in a game instance?

Because unprecedented levels of fidelity!

I think if there is any sanity, they will of course abstract away the activities, not have the game actually calculating full actions that nobody is around to see. But... you never know.

Just think about it as well. If the plan is to have 10 times or 100 times as many NPCs in game as players, then the servers have to not only perform actions, but unlike with players, they have to calculate those actions. No idea what sort of load that is going to require, but we are potentially talking about hundreds of thousands or even millions of NPCs (if we are to believe CIG). That is pretty crazy.

One has to wonder what sort of servers they will need to handle all this processing, and the interactions of NPCs with each others and players, combined with the NPCs reacting to the environment as well. Then drop all the networking on top - anyone in the same instance as the NPCs needs all that traffic as well. Quite scary.

 

[urFOOLISHNESS]

To understand why CE was used one only has to look at the reviews of CR last development blunder. Basically after took forever and the reviews all said the graphics looked terrible. We all are shaped by the pain in life. Our brains avoid it at all costs.

 

[AJW]

Is there any evidence that CIG have even begun trying to implement all this? Because it seems darned complicated to me, and not the sort of thing you can knock together in a month or two...

 

[Ian Skippy]

Is there any evidence that CIG have even begun trying to implement all this? Because it seems darned complicated to me, and not the sort of thing you can knock together in a month or two...

Its part of waddamadjigit-versionnumber.0. As for actual, concrete evidence? No. The NPCs in the 2016 gamescon version were not yet able to walk anywhere, pretty much. Which is one of the bottlenecks of Sq42. You kinda need npcs in a single player game...

 

[ChiefRedCloud]

If those creating Star Citizen were as productive as you guys (gals?) are at posting here (positive comment to be clear) the game should be done by now. I have trouble keeping up with ALL the comments here. But still interesting.

Chief

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Is there any evidence that CIG have even begun trying to implement all this? Because it seems darned complicated to me, and not the sort of thing you can knock together in a month or two...

Not really. Some demos and stuff which don't prove much since its all scripted.

Subbilysumbption is meant to be part of it, but i don't think we have seen any evidence of that in game yet. Again, ATVs and stuff where they have talked about it and said how wonderful its going to be, but no idea when we might see it in game and what it will actually be like.... i mean, at the end of the day, its just a fancy name for decision trees as far as i can tell.

 

[Asp Explorer]

The sad thing is, those creating Star Citizen are doing the best they can with what they have - but every five minutes they get interrupted by someone waving their hands about and bellowing "Immersion! Fidelity!" and they have to back to the very beginning again

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The sad thing is, those creating Star Citizen are doing the best they can with what they have - but every five minutes they get interrupted by someone waving their hands about and bellowing "Immersion! Fidelity!" and they have to back to the very beginning again

if they were that bothered about immersion they would never have backburnered VR.

sadly VR support does not lead to the creation of good eye candy assets, but super detailed models do. No one can tell a terrible framerate from a screenshot.

I just wanted a spiritual successor to wing commander (S42) and privateer (SC) .... hopefully in VR

TBH that is still what i want. everything else is guff... nice guff.... but it was not offered or expected back when i backed.