My Response to the Elite Community and Thoughts on "Colonia and the Thargoids" – Video by ObsidianAnt

[Schmack]

I happen to disagree with those who think a warp system would cheapen the game. There's nothing thrilling or challenging about turn jump and honk, no matter how much you think you're really 20K LY out, you just spent lot of game time doing repetitive tasks with no reward other than the requirement to do it again to get back to where you were. Exploring aside, there's so many different aspects to the game that it's a shame the large majority of players will never encounter it because they don't want to spend 3 hours a day for 5 days doing the same mundane tasks and calling it hardcore gaming.

If we want to separate the wheat from the chaff, surely there are better ways than seeing who blinks first in the staring contest or who can watch paint dry the longest and create a symbol for their signature celebrating and announcing their paint drying viewer accomplishments.

I don't want to rob the explorers of their fun or sense of accomplishment, but I don't feel any desire to preserve the sense of exclusivity gained by withstanding boredom.

 

[WR3ND]

I mean, to each their own and all that, but from my perspective, if you're going about exploring by just honking and jumping, you're doing it all wrong. Racing on the other hand, well that's a bit of a different matter. Still, I wouldn't want to trivialize and diminish what racers do either. There's something to be said for endurance challenges too, I think.

I seriously need to have a word with Jaques about the Large Magellanic Cloud. Hopefully he hasn't forgotten what exploration actually is, but then, I suppose cyborgs don't forget.

 

[MrFailfactory]

I get where you are coming from, Wr3nd. I really do.

That said, faster/more palatable travel to Colonia has been in the cards for a long time, and we've gotten some pieces already throughout Horizons.

Things change, and things progress, and this one in particular, actually makes sense. I can support something like this because the galaxy is still quite large, and there are potential new gameplay elements that could come with the Blue Star Line.

I am optimistic, and looking forward to seeing how it pans out.

Riôt

 

[Tacyon]

"If it becomes easier it is to the good of this community" ah NO! That would be YOUR opinion only. One of which you are entitled to, however, one that I nor I suspect very many others would agree with.

Changing to the lowest common denominator is rarely a good thing.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

I mean, to each their own and all that, but from my perspective, if you're going about exploring by just honking and jumping, you're doing it all wrong. Racing on the other hand, well that's a bit of a different matter. Still, I wouldn't want to trivialize and diminish what racers do either. There's something to be said for endurance challenges too, I think.

I seriously need to have a word with Jaques about the Large Magellanic Cloud. Hopefully he hasn't forgotten what exploration actually is, but then, I suppose cyborgs don't forget.

Yet most hardcore explorers I speak to say that exploration is extremely repetitive & lacking in any real skill.....and is hence why I have avoided a career in exploration. If we get deeper, more skill based exploration mechanics, then having a more guaranteed route to Colonia seems like a small price to pay. In Lore Terms, it seems not very different to the Westward Expansion in the United States.


Also, let us wait & see what role the Thargoids play in all of this.

 

[kofeyh]

Jacques is a travelling station, and just maybe one day he will jump again.

Jaques travels no more; the station's engines are shot (apparently). It's not going anywhere. It's a bit arbitrary. Much like the original jump that was supposed to go to cross the galaxy (frontier ignored, dropped jaques into a random spot) all the effort that went into resupplying it to bring services online (frontier ignored, ran CG's to enable) and to try and have a place without ever-present player groups (frontier ignored, added player groups anyway).

If you want to frame "bothers and sisters from another mother camping out 300+LY away, mostly as an invisible, existential threat" as an "invasion" then be my guest. But I that's probably overplaying the situation. Frontier has made it an electable. Bubble is fine. Nobody dies^tm. If you never watched youtube, or didn't happen to visit a specific region of space with a specific cargo, you'd not even know there is another race.

I have three four** commander accounts, Obsidian Ant, two three of them have never even seen flower people ships, ruins, or been hyperdicted. That's how insular the mechanics are at this point. You can be completely oblivious of what's going on, and go about your business for hundreds of hours and never know. This is not the actions of a developer who intends to then drop the big bad into the bubble.

I'd write more, try and respond more, but the reality is, Frontier simply do not have the time available to do the things you wish them to do; they don't want long-term exploration beyond basic expansion, it runs counter to the goals they have for the game.

edit: please understand this post isn't intending to be negative; it's that Frontier have some stated (and unstated) goals that, ostensibly, run counter to long-term exploration. I have mad respect for the developer who is working very hard to build a most excellent game. We will always want more than we have; that is a give in. But I stopped asking the developer to do the things they don't have time for, and instead encourage them to improve the things they can, to the best of their ability.

** to be fair one is an xbox account, it's not an addiction I can quit any time; fite me.

 

[WR3ND]

Yet most hardcore explorers I speak to say that exploration is extremely repetitive & lacking in any real skill.....and is hence why I have avoided a career in exploration. If we get deeper, more skill based exploration mechanics, then having a more guaranteed route to Colonia seems like a small price to pay. In Lore Terms, it seems not very different to the Westward Expansion in the United States.


Also, let us wait & see what role the Thargoids play in all of this.

OK, so this is a bit of a tangent, but I think there is a bit of a difference between the Explorer rank and exploration in the Elite: Dangerous game, though I think there is at least a fair amount of potential for an overlap between the two as well. For an example of something specific that I found very compelling about exploration, see the first link in my signature.

Regarding the Explorer rank specifically, I think it's still important to many people to accomplish meaningful and challenging milestones, which is why many people wanted and still want the opportunity to achieve the Elite Explorer rank the traditional way. For me personally, the meaning behind the rank changed too much for me to really care about it any more. It was a bit of a letdown, but I've long since moved on and continue to enjoy exploration in this game in my own way. I've set for myself what I feel is a significantly challenging arbitrary exploration milestone in the spirit of the Elite Explorer rank of visiting 100 thousand systems. I'm roughly 20% of the way there, but I'm not particularly in any rush either.

 

[WR3ND]

Jaques travels no more...

This is what I've suspected and feared as well, hence the "free Jaques" type comment regarding his continued exploration of the galaxy I made in an earlier post.

 

[Alec Turner]

Just watched that video myself ... I'd put good money on the whole "blue star line" freight and passenger transport stuff being nothing more than RP flavour text for the CG, I think OA's gone off on a flight of fancy there ... slow news week!

 

[Dad Rock]

I can totally understand the OP's annoyance, but I also believe there will always be new frontiers and challenges for explorers. Let's take a leaf out of our own history books. Consider the route to China, or the discovery of the New World. Both of these were seen to be journeys to different worlds, and travelling there was expensive, dangerous, and time consuming. Both have inevitably come "closer" with technology, but they are relatively, to today's standards, still considered to be far, expensive and difficult to get to, for the average European (and vice versa).

As is the case with the Americas and China, yes, we can get there a lot quicker than we did five hundred years ago, but that doesn't mean any one can travel those distances at the drop of a hat. A lot of expense, effort and preparation is still required to get to Colonia "quickly", especially for the new player. There are also many players who might feel that, travelling that far, even with the "modern" conveniences that a "2.3" Commander has available to them, is still something they can't be bothered with.

I for one am quite excited about these upcoming changes in 2.4, especially the mysterious "passenger and freight" lines. We'll have new and different styles of gameplay introduced into ED and that can only be a good thing.

 

[KING5TON]

IMO It's only a challenge to get there in regards to "How much boredom am I willing to put up with".

There's no real challenge to flying to Colonia. It's just jump, jump, jump, scoop, jump, jump, jump, yawn, scoop etc...

If it was an actual challenge to get there and I actually had to play what feels like a game rather than performing a simple set of actions over and over again I'd go.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Jaques travels no more; the station's engines are shot (apparently). It's not going anywhere. It's a bit arbitrary. Much like the original jump that was supposed to go to cross the galaxy (frontier ignored, dropped jaques into a random spot) all the effort that went into resupplying it to bring services online (frontier ignored, ran CG's to enable) and to try and have a place without ever-present player groups (frontier ignored, added player groups anyway).

If you want to frame "bothers and sisters from another mother camping out 300+LY away, mostly as an invisible, existential threat" as an "invasion" then be my guest. But I that's probably overplaying the situation. Frontier has made it an electable. Bubble is fine. Nobody dies^tm. If you never watched youtube, or didn't happen to visit a specific region of space with a specific cargo, you'd not even know there is another race.

I have three four** commander accounts, Obsidian Ant, two three of them have never even seen flower people ships, ruins, or been hyperdicted. That's how insular the mechanics are at this point. You can be completely oblivious of what's going on, and go about your business for hundreds of hours and never know. This is not the actions of a developer who intends to then drop the big bad into the bubble.

I'd write more, try and respond more, but the reality is, Frontier simply do not have the time available to do the things you wish them to do; they don't want long-term exploration beyond basic expansion, it runs counter to the goals they have for the game.

edit: please understand this post isn't intending to be negative; it's that Frontier have some stated (and unstated) goals that, ostensibly, run counter to long-term exploration. I have mad respect for the developer who is working very hard to build a most excellent game. We will always want more than we have; that is a give in. But I stopped asking the developer to do the things they don't have time for, and instead encourage them to improve the things they can, to the best of their ability.

** to be fair one is an xbox account, it's not an addiction I can quit any time; fite me.

I wasn't talking about the current Thargoid situation. But for what it's worth I completely agree with you, and I have said a number of times before how I feel about that. I extremely dislike the RNG nature of those "encounters". Frontier also need to up their game in communicating that "story", because as you rightly point out there are no doubt many people in the game that most likely have no clue all of that Thargoid stuff even exists. I would be interested to know about many people are unaware of the Thargoid Structures for example, I suspect that number is pretty high! As for 2.4 though, I somehow doubt it will follow this same pattern.

Regarding Jaques Station, even if he never moves again - there are now potentially an unlimited number of megaships and they can easily serve the same purpose. Sure, maybe Frontier have limited time on their hands, and maybe I want too much from the game (exploration is in a dire place right now), but I can certainly wish for the best. I also don't think exploration mechanics will remain static, Frontier have already spoken about improving core mechanics - so that one might be on the cards.

Just watched that video myself ... I'd put good money on the whole "blue star line" freight and passenger transport stuff being nothing more than RP flavour text for the CG, I think OA's gone off on a flight of fancy there ... slow news week!

I didn't say I personally think it is going to happen. I said "some people are speculating that..." Speculation = "This might happen". Not = "I believe this is a 100% certainty".

You are quite right, there's a good chance it is RP flavor text.

 

[Iron Orchid]

Frontier also need to up their game in communicating that "story", because as you rightly point out there are no doubt many people in the game that most likely have no clue all of that Thargoid stuff even exists. I would be interested to know about many people are unaware of the Thargoid Structures for example, I suspect that number is pretty high!

This has been my biggest problem with ED so far has been the really poor in game story telling. I suspect a lot of content would have slipped passed loads of players, CoR, the Rift, Guardians and Thargoids. In fact if I didn't frequent this forum I probably wouldn't know about half of them. The "in games" news is so full of uninteresting stuff any interesting or helpful stuff is overlooked or not even looked at. I miss the news that was in FE which basically gave background info about things and current news and if you subscribed to all the factions news - you usually got three versions of the same event all from a different viewpoint - I know this would be harder to do on a live game but as it stands GALnet is a dead duck.

 

[hems303]

The game is changing, ED have now more and more people playing with different backgrounds, profiles and supports.

If it becomes easier it is to the good of this community, so from my humble point of view I will accept such a change with pleasure. Despite the fact I am a true hardcore explorer !

With regard to the game changing; I am worried that all the challenges are being watered down, possibly due in part to all the negativity directed at FD.:x

I'll give just one example (and I have played in the ED galaxy from the start):[up]

Initially when you attacked an NPC, if the target ship was in a wing/group; then all of that allied group would turn red and you would feel their combined wrath (if they were free to do so).
Now, frequently; even if you destroy your targeted NPC ship it's wingmates just ignore you as if nothing has happened. You can then, at your leisure, target each ship one at a time and blast them all down with impunity, knowing that they will not turn on you as a wing, each ship not attacking you until you fire the first shot at them in turn.....done to aid new players???? It certainly waters the game down and makes it less of a challenge, with reduced or even no "Consequences" for your actions.[knocked out]

Would player wing mates wait patiently in turn for you to initiate action, rather than protect/revenge their fellow Commanders without delay?.....no....NO!

 

[Jex =TE=]

So in an effort to make the game less boring, FDev are now going to allow super quick transport services to Colonia? So what was all the fuss about a 1:1 scale galaxy then if you're allowing shortcuts?

Perhaps the better way to approach this would be to add gameplay to "the boring bits"?

 

[andrak]

Perhaps the better way to approach this would be to add gameplay to "the boring bits"?

This has been repeated on this forum by many people, hundreds of times.

 

[Mengy]

Perhaps the better way to approach this would be to add gameplay to "the boring bits"?

That would be the very much prefferred way, yes. That would mean doing some development for exploration though, and Frontier has shown little interest in that so far.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Well, we have the Fundamental Problem of Space Games: space is really big and really empty, but if you make it smaller why did you set the game in space in the first place? Wherever the compromise is placed will make no-one happy.

Perhaps he will then remain there for a year or two and a new third bubble of civilization will build up around him!

I'm unconvinced that there's enough interest in the player base for a third bubble. Well, maybe some of the idealists from Colonia who don't like the way it's developed? But they could occupy any of the existing lone stations out there and get started right now if they wanted to... Crab or Omega Nebula, perhaps? Mostly they were opposed to organised groups of people, so perhaps they already have done that and just haven't told anyone?

Colonia has - well, it's hard to estimate and only Frontier really knows - somewhere between 1% and 3% of active accounts would be consistent with the evidence (and I'd guess under 1% of primary accounts as permanent or semi-permanent residents). Those are probably the accounts most interested in being outside the Sol bubble at all in the first place. Create a third distant bubble, and it'll split that 1%, but probably not attract anyone new much - and Colonia already has too few people for the number of systems.

But why should it end there? Colonia has grown, it is becoming less of a frontier, and more a corner of civilisation. As with the real world when new settlements become thriving areas of business and activity, they ultimately become better equipped with ports, docks and airports. They become easier to get to.

Between 1.4 and 2.4 optimised jump ranges will have gone from ~40 LY to ~280 LY - seven times faster. The "become easier to get to" has already happened, by most of an order of magnitude.

Of course, it's still not enough - there's always complaints when there's a CG in Maia, which is basically close enough to the bubble at current speeds to not be considered a distinctive colony in the first place.

For 'easier' to be 'easy enough' for some we'd need drives with at least 100x their current range. So demands for ever-faster travel will be a permanent feature of Elite Dangerous. At some point - maybe we're already there, maybe not - Frontier will say "this is fast enough" and ignore the remaining demands.

This doesn't cheapen what Colonia is about, and it certainly doesn't make the game easier. Colonia is not just about "distance" and "time to travel", it's about the monumental task of players having created a new area of civilization.

Right. And why is Colonia a "new area of civilisation" in a way that "the Pleiades settlements" or "New Yembo" aren't? Why was it a "monumental task" rather than a couple of routine CGs easily forgotten. Why is it still talked about and New Yembo isn't and Ceos is only talked about as a convenient place to get Fed rank? Because it's a long way away and so there's a significant barrier to getting there.

It's really unfortunate that the barrier is purely "time" - other more designed "new regions", perhaps in games which had intended Colonia from the start, might use "skill" or "money" or "equipment" to implement the barrier instead. In Elite Dangerous, unless exploration/travel suddenly becomes routinely dangerous and requiring of skill beyond mild concentration to survive 99.999% of it [1], it has to be "time".

But it needs *a* significant barrier or it's not actually a new area of civilisation, it's just a bunch of low-population systems on the 'edge' of the bubble with poor outfitting. There needs to be something which says "I am in Colonia; it will be an active decision with consequences to go to the Sol bubble" and vice versa. It's very unfortunate that crossing that barrier is solely a matter of time and patience rather than anything more exciting - but even so it's necessary to have that barrier.

[1] Only consistent way to do this I can see is to make star scooping really dangerous so you're dead if you mess it up and probably take some heat damage even if you get it right, but allow scooping much more safely from gas giants. Suddenly travel through unpopulated space becomes extremely challenging, and honk-jump risks missing the last safe refuelling opportunity you'll get. I'd be surprised if anything like that happened, of course - that would be a completely different experience and game, not to mention a giant and probably fatal shock to half the explorers currently out there...

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Well, we have the Fundamental Problem of Space Games: space is really big and really empty, but if you make it smaller why did you set the game in space in the first place? Wherever the compromise is placed will make no-one happy.

Space is big, but it is also vast in numbers. What's the difference between a person who explores and scans 1000 star systems all within a 100ly radius, or a person who scans and explores 1000 star systems along a straight line of 30k light years? The number of systems explored is the same, and the amount of time taken to do this is also the same.

Distance isn't the only thing that makes space special, so to does quantity.

I'm unconvinced that there's enough interest in the player base for a third bubble. Well, maybe some of the idealists from Colonia who don't like the way it's developed? But they could occupy any of the existing lone stations out there and get started right now if they wanted to... Crab or Omega Nebula, perhaps? Mostly they were opposed to organised groups of people, so perhaps they already have done that and just haven't told anyone?

Colonia has - well, it's hard to estimate and only Frontier really knows - somewhere between 1% and 3% of active accounts would be consistent with the evidence (and I'd guess under 1% of primary accounts as permanent or semi-permanent residents). Those are probably the accounts most interested in being outside the Sol bubble at all in the first place. Create a third distant bubble, and it'll split that 1%, but probably not attract anyone new much - and Colonia already has too few people for the number of systems.

You are quite right. Frontier need to give us a reason to want to be out there. As I mentioned in the post you quoted, there are at least a dozen permit locked regions of space. Some of them larger than the human bubble, and they also happen to be on the opposite side of the galaxy. At the moment it's a miracle Colonia even happened. But I think it could happen again if given enough reason. But that is entirely up to Frontier.

Between 1.4 and 2.4 optimised jump ranges will have gone from ~40 LY to ~280 LY - seven times faster. The "become easier to get to" has already happened, by most of an order of magnitude.

Of course, it's still not enough - there's always complaints when there's a CG in Maia, which is basically close enough to the bubble at current speeds to not be considered a distinctive colony in the first place.

For 'easier' to be 'easy enough' for some we'd need drives with at least 100x their current range. So demands for ever-faster travel will be a permanent feature of Elite Dangerous. At some point - maybe we're already there, maybe not - Frontier will say "this is fast enough" and ignore the remaining demands.

Right. And why is Colonia a "new area of civilisation" in a way that "the Pleiades settlements" or "New Yembo" aren't? Why was it a "monumental task" rather than a couple of routine CGs easily forgotten. Why is it still talked about and New Yembo isn't and Ceos is only talked about as a convenient place to get Fed rank? Because it's a long way away and so there's a significant barrier to getting there.

It's really unfortunate that the barrier is purely "time" - other more designed "new regions", perhaps in games which had intended Colonia from the start, might use "skill" or "money" or "equipment" to implement the barrier instead. In Elite Dangerous, unless exploration/travel suddenly becomes routinely dangerous and requiring of skill beyond mild concentration to survive 99.999% of it [1], it has to be "time".

But it needs *a* significant barrier or it's not actually a new area of civilisation, it's just a bunch of low-population systems on the 'edge' of the bubble with poor outfitting. There needs to be something which says "I am in Colonia; it will be an active decision with consequences to go to the Sol bubble" and vice versa. It's very unfortunate that crossing that barrier is solely a matter of time and patience rather than anything more exciting - but even so it's necessary to have that barrier.

[1] Only consistent way to do this I can see is to make star scooping really dangerous so you're dead if you mess it up and probably take some heat damage even if you get it right, but allow scooping much more safely from gas giants. Suddenly travel through unpopulated space becomes extremely challenging, and honk-jump risks missing the last safe refuelling opportunity you'll get. I'd be surprised if anything like that happened, of course - that would be a completely different experience and game, not to mention a giant and probably fatal shock to half the explorers currently out there...

This is all about existing gameplay mechanics that are ultimately far too shallow. I agree, give people a challenge beyond "time constraints". People will always want "faster", Frontier need to take a look at that and put in "more" instead of "fast". And to be clear, I've never argued for faster travel.

 

[ITZC0ATL]

As others have stated having a barrier to Colonia is important, as the time and/or skill investment that this game requires is what sets it apart from other games. I think perhaps Frontier thought Colonia would attract more players than it has though, and is decreasing travel time to help develop the area a bit more.

If we only get stations - then no harm done, as this is an obvious step forward in developing a route. If we get some kind of fast-travel system .... well, I'm not so sure if that's so good. The journey to Colonia (for me anyay) is made special by how you see the sky changing as you fly, and begin to notice the star density changing. When you get to Colonia, the view is mind-blowing, incredible natural beauty for a game. Making this journey more practical, I'm all for, but removing the act of doing it ourselves, not so much.

A bigger issue for me is that if we do end up with some form of fast-travel to Colonia, that will put Sag A* within 10,000Lys. The journey to the centre of the galaxy is a sacred experience for Elite players, and while it is possibleto do it quicker than ever, you do need to learn new skills and utilise many game aspects to achieve this. I remember Allitnil mentioning that his cruising speed towards the core was around 7000LYs per hour. That absolutely drawfs my 2-3000Lys per hour, which I'm still incidentally proud of. Point being, if FDev want to create more interesting mechanics to travel to Colonia that allow faster travel but ultimately an investment in either having to learn new skills or do further ship engieering, then I see no issue with that.

As usual, no decision will be perfect and make the entire playerbase happy. I'm still a new enough player to place my trust in FDev not to dilute their game too much, but I guess time will tell when we see what 2.4 brings and more importantly the new changes in season 3.