General / Off-Topic Forum posters angry with developers

What he describes is definitly happening here too, but it is by far not the majority here. Most critical posts here are quite polite and trying to be as objective as possible. This community is NOT toxic. There are a small number of toxic people, but they are small, and they don't make the community.

There are so many posts which are very well written and where people did a real good job to address the issues, you will find posts where hours of writing have been invested, they are easier to find than the toxic ones. So, I stress the point: this community is NOT toxic at all.
 
Tall order I know and the people likely to read it are not the ones who really NEED to read it but one can only try.
"It's enough to drive one to despair." (had to look this up)
Its almost in every aspect of life like that... (I need vacation)
 
Biggest problem I see (and it's in all games) is folk buy game "a" and then complain bitterly it isn't game "b" eg this "soccer" thing would be great if only they would use a frisbee instead of a ball.
Deosn't help that often the marketing folk give a false of impression of what a game will be like (films and books get this too of course).
That and a massive sense of entitlement - everyone's opinion "matters" - no it doesn't, mine included. I'd hate to be anysort of community manager would get old real fast.
 
It must be so frustrating to be Community Manager as on one hand you have all these amazing people and groups doing amazing things but on the other you have this expectation that you are a perfect human robot working for a perfect human robot development company.

Humans are fallible and this is one of the traits that makes us human.
 
Every time the problem is only on the community and never on the Developers-

That's a very bad attitude mostly of the time used to hide low values product or scam (not talking about Elite Dangerous here).

Also, life teach me that rarely the fault is only on a single side: most of the times both concurr to that.

And again: if a Game is well developed Dev have nothing to fear about.

Problem lies when you start tricking the consumer with teaser video with something that isn't in the product...

Or promise something that later you remove.
 
He has some points and agree with him in spirit I guess, but the movie analogy doesn't really work. Movies don't interrupt to nag for money every few minutes, and the standard of quality in almost any other industry are much higher. Games break, or just don't work, about as often as late night TV gimmicks.

There are good reasons for the difficulties in game development, but I think he's giving too little credit to level of cynical manipulation developers and publishers subject their customers to. This is a fun example I saw today, Marvel vs Capcom Infinity Edition. You can see what was sold for $200 and what was received. You can also see the reflections of the real items they photoshopped out in the promo image.

19-marvel-vs-capcom-infinite-special-collectors-edition-infinity-st.jpg

Source, some random's Twitter embedded in a random generic gaming news article

It's not to say Fdev is shady, but I think most of us play other games, it's hard not to be affected by this in one way or another. Fdev have skirted close to some of the crappier practices.
 
I've been on the dev side, although not professional. I've had people tell me i was doing things wrong (you know, armchair devs) or that my work was pants.

Fortunately, i was in the enviable position as a dev of being able to tell those who criticized my work to shove certain objects into certain orifices if they didn't like my work.

Its a shame professional devs cannot afford the same luxury... which is why I presume they remain closed mouth.
 
For me this twitter post is total bull. Whenever I was in a small leading position such as the team leader for some parkour team I was the one doing decisions and what kind of a team leader would I be if I wouldn't explain my decisions to my team? Ofcourse some will moan and come up with other ideas and not so rare in a what others call toxic tone. But you know what? Listen to them. You gotta be immune to toxic speeches and extract the actual content out of it like in any heated argument.
Once you've done that you can constructively argue about the points. My personal experience is that they get less toxic (I personally don't mind toxic or 'healthy' disucssions. Both are equally constructive) when you listen to them.
Quite often I have chosen a different decision afterwards because they had the better argumentation which ultimately caused good results. After some tests with my team we noticed that my original decision was worse.

What do we learn out of this short story and what is my point?

That keeping back and stay silent just because ANY game community contains toxic players is straight forward stupid and shows mental weakness in a person being in a leading position and is therefor not suited for said leading position because good decision and ideas might be missed out just because 'someone' doesn't feel 'comfortable' in a 'toxic' environment. In the case of Elite it's like putting a giant stamp on the logo of SDC concluding any of their ideas to be worthless because they are toxic and do things that are morally inacceptable for others.
This I have been telling other game developers before in other games and in case you still read here is another story.

There was once a small game with match based PvP. With any PvP game compared to singlepalyer games comes a giant discussion of balance which will most likely never end as long as new content is added, influecing existing content. Being toxic (like really toxic) and claiming the main face of the dev team incompetent (I come to that point again later) combined with own suggestions I recieved alot of replies with both, supporting and not supporting my points. I myself had to face other community members having an argument with me because of me being toxic. I got kicked out of a clan for making fun of lesser experienced players (imagine it like a prank, we didn't spawn cap but we clearly have shown our superiority). But I don't mind, I respect their decisions, however, they lost a decent player in their team.
Time went by and ultimately the main face of the dev team failed with one last dev update claiming bunkruptcy. He even told me, personally, on the forums that I am the most toxic player he has ever met and that he was seriously 'annoyed' by my presence.
My reply was straight forward and simple:

"If you can't stand toxic environments then you are not suited for such a position. Quit your job and ruin another game but let competent developers do their job correctly."

And that's how it is. Expecting that a game community is always healthy and friendly and caring is stupid. Facts are speaking otherwise. Psychology studies have shown that in any community there will be toxic content. However, it is not toxic to everyone. Only specific types of personalities consider specific content as toxic while others do not. And here lies the point.
Due to the fact that we have different expectations to what 'healthy' means we obviously influence our environment we stand in differently. Some may feel uncomfortable while we ourselves feel completely fine.

The key to managing 'toxic' communities is to accept them like anyone else and treat them equal to any other. It's just their way of communicating.

Lastly I'd like to explain what I expect from individuals in leading positions.
Any leading position contains the task of 'leading' (who would have thought) other individuals as a group. This means you are in contact with other humans and this again means that you are in contact with humans sharing different qualities and opinions. Humans are different. By excluding a certain part of the group because the group leader doesn't feel comfortable with their qualities/opinions/whatever the group leader actively weakens the group and harms the progress to achieve the common goal. Again, just because a single person (or a small group of individuals) doesn't fell comfortable.
My point is that any individual in a leading position that is actively influenced by uncomfortable environment should not be in such a position and be exchanged with someone who is capable of working in different and harsh environments.

Go hard or go home it is. Someone in a leading position must be capable of being resistant to many kinds of envirnments (or in this case: communities) and continue their work without any interuption. If this ability is not present said individual is not suited for this position and should be exchanged. It's-as-simple-as-that.

It will never be easy and there will never be communities who always 'cheer' for someone. Toxic communities or toxic parts of communities, however, WILL always be present. As a game developer in specific I expect the ability to manage toxic environments and not retreat because of uncomfortable feelings, which should never be able to influence the actual work.

Star Citizen shares information on a tight and regular basis. They revieve both, support and disappointment and as this twitter guy has stated: justified.
It is justified, it is legitimate and it is certainly right to share doubts, fears and suggestions as well as criticism. The way the content is delivered is not important at all. Extract the content, consider it the way any other content is considered, reply constructively and wrap it into a tone of your choosing. The tone doesn't influence the content, especially not in a way where one could possibly understand "I don't like the game but still play it." ... we all like Elite and even more we get disappointed when stupid stuff like multicrew gets added that, at the moment, blocks access to the game due to a bug.
And since we are at toxic communities, have some salt: You failed hard, why do you let quantillion credit missions and a game blocking bug into a live release? =P

Handle toxic communities or leave your position and get a person who can. Toxic or not the content has as much value as any non-toxic content. I am being serious here. Mental weakness is a core characteristic that leads to failrue as potentional good content is left out just because it is considered toxic by some.


EDIT: Here a quote that explains the issue I am talking about (translated into english, meaning may differ): "Any compliment, as bad and wrong as it might be, is always appreciated. Any criticism, as good and honest as it might be, is always rejected."

And now, have a nice cup of tea.
 
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But also, if you take your lovely new car to the garage to have, say, some work done to the Engine Management Unit because when you brought the car, you realised that after being capped at <4000 rpm during the 'run in' you never encountered an issue were the engine judders at 6000...

Anyway, you take your car to the garage, and someone slides out of a side door after keeping you waiting for half an hour over your booking time, keeping you in the waiting room with a broken coffee machine that should have been working...

He then says, ok what car is it? looking through paper work and not finding your booking..

Then he says ok he'll fit you in, and takes your car to the fitting shop. Usually the waiting room has glass all around it so you can see the folks working on vehicles, but in this instance one of the windows was broken so boarded up, and the other window has a large poster on it.. so the only way to get a glimpse of what's going on is to look through a defect in the poster, which happens to be the crutch of a bikini clad girl, holding a can of 7up... so as your face is pushed up against said crutch of this large poster (looking hilarious to onlookers) so you can desperately see if they're working on your car. you quickly see that the mechanic, is actually sitting there trying to fix a kettle. WTH you're thinking.. 10 mins later, he's still trying to reassemble this kettle, and not touching your car.. 30 mins later, you push your head against our posters crutch trying to see through the print to see if they're working on your car yet... Nope the mechanic is now talking to one of the girls from the chemist next door. Clearly the kettle was for her, and ofc she's quite attractive, so he gets brownie points for doing her favors (oi oi!!)... Anyway much to your surprise, and within 10 seconds of complaining about lack of productivity on the car, the mechanic picks up a wrench, and looks to be undoing a wheel nut. That's it, final straw. You go around the side and ask him what he's doing.. it's the Engine computer that needs looking at according to the experts that originally diagnosed the issue.. He says.. nah mate, we need to balance the wheel first. You explain the problem is not the wheel, and never has been the wheel, and it really doesn't need re-balancing. The mechanic is adamant. He wants to tune the balancing. You're told to go back to the waiting room, because it's his garage, and he knows what's best for the car.

With your head again, against the bikini girl's crutch, peering through the hole, you can see the mechanic again working on other things. ALL HE HAS TO DO is fix the fuel mixture through the car computer, but no.. he's now stopped balancing the wheel, and is now talking to another girl from the same chemist, but this time, an equally attractive girl with darker hair. You can see she gives him her mobile phone, and shakes it about.. clearly it's not working too good, and he takes the back off, and the battery pack, and is trying to remove the sim card.. he turns around and you can no longer see what he's doing.. he's just there with the girl next to him, and he's fiddling about trying to shake something out of it.. 10 mins later, he's still there. 20, still there...

Another couple enter the waiting room, and the guy says to you... haha mate, you're not getting enough at home? the girl with him giggles... and you look around to see what he's going on about.. then realise you have been watching the mechanic, through the 7up girls bikini bottoms.. with a little embarrassment, you try to explain, but just get laughs.. it's clear it's too stupid a thing to try to watch whilst others are in the room so you patiently wait.. and wait and wait...

and wait... and wait..

Then the mechanic comes in.. and hands you the keys. Says.. I'm sorry mate the job is too big for the time the garage is open for. Points at the clock, and closing time is in 5 mins. He offers for you to come back again, and the first available appointment is in the Autumn. That's like a completely different season.. too long a wait. So you head to another mechanic that is open until 7 and they can luckily fit you in. So the new mechanic, still in the car park, grabs a portable computer, plugs it in under the hood.. hmms a bit, and says aha, and nods, mutters something... gets a screw driver... and twiddles for 30 seconds... stands back frowns, goes back twiddles some more, and says .... There. that should do it. You say.. what? really? he says haha yeah, the mixture was all wrong, i just corrected it for you. Dont' worry no charge. it was a simple thing.


Way too much waffle!

TLDR; things can be much easier, and quicker to accomplish when the folks working on things aren't distracted by other more interesting things?

Cough (coaster)... Cough (Jarassic)
 
You gotta be immune to toxic speeches and extract the actual content out of it like in any heated argument.
Once you've done that you can constructively argue about the points.

If I only could learn that... I am serious, do you have some hints in how someone can achieve this if he wants to? If he needs to? If he must to find back into a happier life?
(need vacation I already found out...)
 
Some very good points Kaim!
But how do you deal with toxic individuals without making the problem worse?
I guess it's a well established line a user has to cross for forum infractions but beyond that you can't really control what people write out there in the wild.

My original post was more asking people to talk rather than shout, to not get caught up personally, to not get angered and to maybe just think about how it can be for the developers who while some people might not believe it are generally doing something they love and believe in.

Genuine feedback/debate and especially criticism are essential user feedback!!
 
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