General / Off-Topic More than 50 killed in Las Vegas terror attack

[Deleted member 115407]

But does the US have the right to be in said countries.

Nations go to war against each other, and inevitably the people of one side end up in the country of the other side.

If anyone has a problem with an occupation or invasion, they are welcome to attempt to repel it. If anyone feels that one or more US citizens were occupying other countries illegally, they are welcome to press the matter in international courts.

But then we're getting far, far away from the individual right to keep and bear arms, and into global politics and diplomacy. I can't tell if you're doing it intentionally or...

But anyway, yeah, the right to self defense is a basic human right, and the Second Amendment to the US Constitution protects that basic human right for the individual citizen.

 

[FuzzySpider]

I can't tell if you're doing it intentionally or...

He is challenging you to see the logical inconsistencies in your own arguments.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Nations go to war against each other, and inevitably the people of one side end up in the country of the other side.

If anyone has a problem with an occupation or invasion, they are welcome to attempt to repel it. If anyone feels that one or more US citizens were occupying other countries illegally, they are welcome to press the matter in international courts.

But then we're getting far, far away from the individual right to keep and bear arms, and into global politics and diplomacy. I can't tell if you're doing it intentionally or...

But anyway, yeah, the right to self defense is a basic human right, and the Second Amendment to the US Constitution protects that basic human right for the individual citizen.

He is challenging you to see the logical inconsistencies in your own arguments.

Basically, what`s good for the goose is good for the gander.

"But anyway, yeah, the right to self defense is a basic human right, and the Second Amendment to the US Constitution protects that basic human right for the individual citizen."

You can forget your 2nd Amendment, the right of self defence has existed since the first animal crawled out of the water.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Basically, what`s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Meaning? What logical inconsistency have you found in my argument thus far?

 

[Deleted member 115407]

You can forget your 2nd Amendment, the right the self defence has existed since the first animal crawled out of the water.

I never said it didn't exist prior to the Second Amendment.

The Second Amendment doesn't provide for the right of self defense, it provides for securing one of the most effective means of defending oneself.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Meaning? What logical inconsistency have you found in my argument thus far?

I find it illogical, that by your own logic you live in fear of your government, while having little to no faith in the authorities to protect your rights as a citizen.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Meaning? What logical inconsistency have you found in my argument thus far?

1. That you need weapons to defend against government oppression, whilst ignoring the fact an oppressive government is facing no resistance from the very people who claim this is necessary.

2. You claim people need weapons to defend themselves from violence, whilst ignoring that these weapons allow violence on this sort of scale to persist.

3. You claim that people need weapons to defend their country from invasion, while saying that other nations who are dealing with a US-led invasion should "press the matter in international courts."

 

[Moonax IRL]

International courts that the US has failed to sign up to, due to the fact they know that they would be guilty of war crimes and mass murder if they did.

 

[[SI] Bobdelion]

The idea that this has all that much to do with the second amendment is laughable. If your government wants to get you a semi-automatic, fully automatic, or frankly even a g'damn Bazooka isn't really going to stop that from happening. Purely and simply this is about the stupidity of putting high powered military style armaments in the hands of your populous and then wringing your hands when things go pear-shaped on such a regular basis. No citizen needs these kinds of weapons for defensive purposes. Full stop. This ongoing, NRA-fuelled agenda is ridiculous. That said I'd be amazed if even this kind of incident changed anything. Guns are just too engrained in the culture of the good'ol US of A.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

I find it illogical, that by your own logic you live in fear of your government, while having little to no faith in the authorities to protect your rights as a citizen.

The United States and Texas governments thus far have done a fine job protecting my rights as a Citizen. There are slip-ups from time to time, but for the most part those slip-ups get addressed in the courts.

The Federal Government is certainly guilty of gross overreach in many areas, and the political role of many Americans on both sides of the aisle is to try to halt or even reverse some of the powers that the people have granted the Federal Government outside of its Constitutional boundaries.

And there are definitely people and groups in this country who should have an eye kept on them. Not because they are inherently evil, but rather because I think they are naive about the possible consequences of emplacing the governments that they envision. In order to keep them in check, I make sure to vote in every election that I am legally allowed to vote in.

I know that you're really frustrated by all of this, and that it would be easier for you if I were some wild-eyed, ultra-devout, anti-federalist militiaman whose arguments were full of holes that you could thread a narrative through. Unfortunately for you, I am an educated and informed citizen who speaks in facts. And the facts is, son, that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees, for the People, the right to keep and bear arms.

You may not like it. You may not agree with it. And if you're so incensed about changing it you're welcome to apply for citizenship and register to vote. But unless you are a United States Citizen, you're just going to have to suck it up.

International courts that the US has failed to sign up to, due to the fact they know that they would be guilty of war crimes and mass murder if they did.

If the world feels strongly about that they are welcome to send an army over here to try to make us sign up.

 

[Minonian]

While I generally see any attempt to overthrow the government as treasonous, the sentiment is not without historical backing. Perhaps my favorite is a quote from Joseph Story, a supreme court justice from 1811 to 1845 (yes, I had to look it up... my memory is far from perfect).

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

"The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.

A similar provision in favour of protestants (for to them it is confined) is to be found in the bill of rights of 1688, it being declared, "that the subjects, which are protestants, may have arms for their defence suitable to their condition, and as allowed by law." But under various pretences the effect of this provision has been greatly narrowed; and it is at present in England more nominal than real, as a defensive privilege."

http://www.constitution.org/js/js_344.htm

Except as we seen in the recent USA protests about the removal of statues, and as we also know in the old world most of the so called militias have strong radical ties either left or right what means they are even at the best posing as much danger what resolving.

They are all radicalists with a very loose government control. which is only exists in paper but when the officers the military or the president trying to say to them anything? They are going to be entirely ignored.

National guard? that's an entirely different level. so no, there are have no importance at all, but posing threat to everyone both to civilians and the state itself. Not to mention security and a shadow military force / government. This is how pretty pathetic warlords beign birth my friend, All you need is someone charismatic enough in the middle of a big social economical and political upheaval under a weak handed leader and??? You have it!

Like? Right now!

 

[Boomer Kay]

Guns are just too engrained in the culture of the good'ol US of A.

So was liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Both RIP.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

National guard? that's an entirely different level. so no, there are have no importance at all, but posing threat to everyone bot to civilians and the state itself.

The National Guard is, effectively, the organized State militia.

 

[FuzzySpider]

If the world feels strongly about that they are welcome to send an army over here to try to make us sign up.

So it's not about what's right, it's about who has the biggest guns?

That explains the obsession with gun ownership, and the conflating the "freedom" to do as you please with owning an arsenal of deadly weapons.

 

[Moonax IRL]

The United States and Texas governments thus far have done a fine job protecting my rights as a Citizen. There are slip-ups from time to time, but for the most part those slip-ups get addressed in the courts.

The Federal Government is certainly guilty of gross overreach in many areas, and the political role of many Americans on both sides of the aisle is to try to halt or even reverse some of the powers that the people have granted the Federal Government outside of its Constitutional boundaries.

And there are definitely people and groups in this country who should have an eye kept on them. Not because they are inherently evil, but rather because I think they are naive about the possible consequences of emplacing the governments that they envision. In order to keep them in check, I make sure to vote in every election that I am legally allowed to vote in.

I know that you're really frustrated by all of this, and that it would be easier for you if I were some wild-eyed, ultra-devout, anti-federalist militiaman whose arguments were full of holes that you could thread a narrative through. Unfortunately for you, I am an educated and informed citizen who speaks in facts. And the facts is, son, that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees, for the People, the right to keep and bear arms.

You may not like it. You may not agree with it. And if you're so incensed about changing it you're welcome to apply for citizenship and register to vote. But unless you are a United States Citizen, you're just going to have to suck it up.

If ye want to slaughter each other in ignorance that your choice, I`ll of course feel empathy for the innocent persons killed and wounded in such attacks, as any sane individual would. Much like the rest of the civilised world, we will look across in resigned dismay that supposed educated people could be so stupid, but such is life.

If the world feels strongly about that they are welcome to send an army over here to try to make us sign up.

Read that line back to yourself slowly, before you pick up your ball and run home.

 

[Minonian]

The National Guard is, effectively, the organized State militia.

They are! But bands like them can exist under different terms too, whom does not giving ground to pretty pathetic militant groups, on the verge of legitimacy. they are a reserve force, and not some militant radicalist groups whom under the second amendments can exists mostly undisturbed.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

They are! But bands like them can exist under different terms too, whom does not giving ground to pretty pathetic militant groups, on the verge of legitimacy. they are a reserve force, and not some militant radicalist groups whom under the second amendments can exists mostly undisturbed.

But someone need not be a member of the National Guard to be eligible and ready for militia service. In essence, the militia is the able-bodied armed citizenry who can be called upon to defend the State should the need arise. National Guard units are maintained to provide the country with a fast, organized military resource in time of need, but without the overhead of maintaining a standing, regular Army.

And while it is true that there are fringe groups out there, those groups are almost invariably small and isolated. I mean, the Red Mountain Militia Boyz might be some little quack militia group but they are no true threat to the sovereignty of the State or Federal governments.

Read that line back to yourself slowly, before you pick up your ball and run home.

OK, I read it. What was I expected to reel over?

 

[lysan]

If the world feels strongly about that they are welcome to send an army over here to try to make us sign up.

Yeah, that will teach us .....

**Chuckles in the background**

 

[Boomer Kay]

If ye want to slaughter each other in ignorance that your choice, I`ll of course feel empathy for the innocent persons killed and wounded in such attacks, as any sane individual would. Much like the rest of the civilised world, we will look across in resigned dismay that supposed educated people could be so stupid, but such is life.

Science isn't entirely dead yet over there.
It's just a tough read:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2990220

 

[Minonian]

So it's not about what's right, it's about who has the biggest guns?

That explains the obsession with gun ownership, and the conflating the "freedom" to do as you please with owning an arsenal of deadly weapons.

Yeah, this is how your average American citizen and in overall America means freedom. Freedom to shoot because guns giving you freedom protecting your freedom!!!

Know what?

Fraggin no!!!

Guns does not giving you freedom! Guns does not giving you the means to protect freedom and your life! Guns giving you the power to kill! What you do with that power is up to you! And honestly? I don't think every people deserves this kind of power they can live with it wisely.