General / Off-Topic More than 50 killed in Las Vegas terror attack

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lysan

lysan
Zaphod Hawke said:
Perhaps not sticks, but people have been using trucks to achieve remarkably similar outcomes.
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Some people believe if only we ban everything that is dangerous, we will all be safe, if we should run with this idea just for the fun of it, we will all be wearing inflatable sumo suits and nothing else.

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Anyone with just a little knowledge, can make a destructive device that can harm or kill many people +50.
Not going to list any examples but it's not that difficult.
 

FuzzySpider

FuzzySpider
Bob Lighthouse said:
"Mass shooting" is a definition problem.
Most of those are gang shootings, not attacks on the public.
Brevik is your black swan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
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It happens from time to time in Europe, years apart. The USA is having them on what seems to be a monthly basis. Come on man.

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your country. I am telling you, as a friend, looking from the outside, that this looks like a serious problem that is being ignored.

Please try to understand that it isn't a hatred of America that provokes us Europeans to act like this. It's concern for your citizens who are murdered in this way. We feel your pain. Though I don't pretend to understand the culture of gun ownership, and acknowledge that maybe you gain more from it than you lose by having it, you can't deny that easier access to deadly weapons makes homicide easier.
 

Bob Lighthouse

Banned
Bob Lighthouse
FuzzySpider said:
It happens from time to time in Europe, years apart. The USA is having them on what seems to be a monthly basis. Come on man.

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your country. I am telling you, as a friend, looking from the outside, that this looks like a serious problem that is being ignored.

Please try to understand that it isn't a hatred of America that provokes us Europeans to act like this. It's concern for your citizens who are murdered in this way. We feel your pain. Though I don't pretend to understand the culture of gun ownership, and acknowledge that maybe you gain more from it than you lose by having it, you can't deny that easier access to deadly weapons makes homicide easier.
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You are missing my point, even Wiki gets it:

The lack of a single definition can lead to alarmism in the news media, with some reports conflating categories of crimes.[6]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting

Do you consider a gang shootout with four people a "mass shooting"?
Because it is.
 

lysan

lysan
FuzzySpider said:
It happens from time to time in Europe, years apart. The USA is having them on what seems to be a monthly basis. Come on man.

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your country. I am telling you, as a friend, looking from the outside, that this looks like a serious problem that is being ignored.

Please try to understand that it isn't a hatred of America that provokes us Europeans to act like this. It's concern for your citizens who are murdered in this way. We feel your pain. Though I don't pretend to understand the culture of gun ownership, and acknowledge that maybe you gain more from it than you lose by having it, you can't deny that easier access to deadly weapons makes homicide easier.
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We need to find the root cause, and it is in the society, unfortunately the US is not as educated (average) as most european countries, in some areas they barely left the caves in how they behave, and no this is NOT a racial issue, you see it across the ethnic groups.

So yes, these people can't handle firearms or any weapon/tool besides fluffy stuff, but that is not how it works and you can't pick and choose. If you got a law that is good for you, it will also be good for someone else, and maybe these people can't handle the responsibility.

Again, I won't give up my rights or freedom just because there is a rotten egg in the basket.
 

FuzzySpider

FuzzySpider
Bob Lighthouse said:
You are missing my point, even Wiki gets it:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting

Do you consider a gang shootout with four people a "mass shooting"?
Because it is.
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No. I'm getting your point. I feel your missing mine. What happened in Vegas actually qualifies as a disaster. Unlike most disasters, this one was preventable. We don't have anything like as many as these sorts of disasters in Europe.

If you feel that they're tolerable and you gain more from having guns as you would lose from giving them up - that's fair enough. Don't let anyone try to "guilt" you into giving the "correct" answer. Mass murderers may use guns, but not everyone who owns a gun is a mass murderer or has any sympathies with them. I just wish that gun enthusiasts would acknowledge the increased risk, because that would be a step towards solving the problem without necessarily taking the guns away.

The denial of that risk is what rankles.

Bob Lighthouse said:
The fact of the matter is homicide rates are decreasing, dramatically, and have been for decades.
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That's true but that is in spite of rather than because of gun ownership.
 

FuzzySpider

FuzzySpider
jontycampbell said:
Indeed... cars, drugs, knives, pens, fists, household chemicals...
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Trying to form an equivalence between those things and devices designed specifically to do terrible damage is at the very best misguided.

Guns are not the same as pens. Pen related homicides are not getting a lot of airtime.
 

Bob Lighthouse

Banned
Bob Lighthouse
FuzzySpider said:
No. I'm getting your point. I feel your missing mine. What happened in Vegas actually qualifies as a disaster. Unlike most disasters, this one was preventable. We don't have anything like as many as these sorts of disasters in Europe.

If you feel that they're tolerable and you gain more from having guns as you would lose from giving them up - that's fair enough. Don't let anyone try to "guilt" you into giving the "correct" answer. Mass murderers may use guns, but not everyone who owns a gun is a mass murderer or has any sympathies with them. I just wish that gun enthusiasts would acknowledge the increased risk, because that would be a step towards solving the problem without necessarily taking the guns away.

The denial of that risk is what rankles.
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LOl, see Bataclan re: denial.
Bad people can get guns no matter what.
I live where there are restrictive laws and we are thousands of mi/k from the next landmass and guess what, we still have illegal guns, too.



That's true but that is in spite of rather than because of gun ownership.
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Perhaps, but I've yet to see that demonstrated and the correlations suggest just the opposite.
Gun proliferation has increased over the same time, as have positive public attitudes towards gun ownership.
The Kennesaw Georgia gun project suggests the opposite too.
Tell me, would you rather rob an armed, or unarmed person?
Passes sniff test with flying colors.
 

Bob Lighthouse

Banned
Bob Lighthouse
FuzzySpider said:
Trying to form an equivalence between those things and devices designed specifically to do terrible damage is at the very best misguided.

Guns are not the same as pens. Pen related homicides are not getting a lot of airtime.
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Just so we're clear, fists and feet kill *twice as many* people as do all rifles (evil black hi capacity assault ones included), every year in the US.
Knives kill even more.
 

Adept

Adept
Zaphod Hawke said:
While not a direct comparison by any means, Simo Hayha made quite a name for himself using a bolt action rifle.

A Mosin-Nagant could be used to terrible effect if one was well trained and so-inclined.
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It is a rather offensive attempt at any kind of comparison. Häyhä was arguably the deadliest sniper the world has seen. He was a soldier defending his country from an invading army, the kills happened over multiple months of combat, and the targets were enemy soldiers.

Why you would him up when we're talking about the ease of mass murder is beyond me. You are really reaching for straws here.
 

Boomer Kay

B
jontycampbell said:
I'm not being clear, all these things can be used as weapons, cars in recent times, even though that is not their design. Guns perhaps are most familiar with violent acts and killing because they ARE designed to harm? The larger thrust I'm driving at is a killer will find a way to kill without a device designed FOR killing, ya dig?

Let's ban knives, while we're at it let's ban forks and pens - heck, let's ban hands. :D But seriously, do you have a citation for that interesting criminology stat? Makes sense since fists and feet are far more common than firearms, and available legally :)
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https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....able_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2009-2013.xls

He's assuming "Firearms, type not stated" are not rifles.

Here's also the full list of gun related incidents - with links to news/police reports where available:
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

Having a single gun related accident in Germany will go trough the press for days and spark "gun safety" discussions.
The 50 or so they have per day in the US doesn't even make national TV headlines (you really should flip trough some of the sources just to see how bizarre the entire situation is).
 
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[SI] Bobdelion

[SI] Bobdelion
Adept said:
The vast majority of shootings are done with handguns. These rifles make horrific mass murder possible, that is true, but small handguns are what are used in (from memory) 97% of fatal shootings. The whole "armed population" concept is deeply flawed.
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Except that it really isn't - it speaks to the whole rhetoric around gun ownership in the States. Just because handguns are most commonly used in shootings does not make the kinds of heavy armaments discussed here and being sold to and owned by the general public anything other than completely preposterous, and yet the mere thought of new regulation results in chorus of 'they are taking our guns!'

Again, I do not believe for one second that this has anything to do with the second amendment or the notion of self defence. You can deal with handguns however you like (I'd argue for stronger restrictions but that is a whole other debate). When it comes to fully/semi-automatic firearms; it's the equivalent of saying that just because every 17 year old out there can buy a hatchback and will statistically account for the most car deaths while driving them doesn't make it a good idea to allow the sale tanks or APC's to every Tom, , and Harry who wants one. These are tools of war, designed specifically for killing people on mass.

In many respects the most shocking aspect of this incident is that the murderer in Las Vegas was using these tools exactly as intended. That alone is horrifying. We can quibble about people's mental state's when they carry out these actions but the fact remains that without access to these types of weapons this tragedy - and other like it - would've been a very different affair.
 
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Stigbob

Stigbob
jontycampbell said:
I'm not being clear, all these things can be used as weapons, cars in recent times, even though that is not their design. Guns perhaps are most familiar with violent acts and killing because they ARE designed to harm? The larger thrust I'm driving at is a killer will find a way to kill without a device designed FOR killing, ya dig?

Let's ban knives, while we're at it let's ban forks and pens - heck, let's ban hands. :D But seriously, do you have a citation for that interesting criminology stat? Makes sense since fists and feet are far more common than firearms, and available legally :)
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True you can kill with a lot of things, but guns are the most efficient and effective method.
 
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