Timely article considering the spate of complaints - Video Games Are Destroying the People Who Make Them

[dannysquid]

I think this is a bit curse of creative professions - they produce luxury essentially. What's created is not necessary required for humans to enjoy life. So there are exploiting, high risk, etc. in gaming industry, or in entertainment industry overall.

It's a luxury I couldn't do without. For me a world without books, films, music, games wouldn't be particularly worth being in.

I think where games are different (or maybe were different back in my day) is that the difficult creative decisions are made alongside a huge team implementing them. If you're doing a movie or a TV show or play, usually ONE person has spent ages writing the screenplay and the army of people tasked with implementing it are hired at the very end on a tight schedule. An album might cost a fortune to produce, but it's been preceded by a lot of very cheap idle guitar strumming.

I worked on a movie licence that changed license (from one film to another) and changed platform (from N64 to Gamecube) during production. And we were already 6 months behind schedule. A huge amount of work was wasted each time and we were under so much pressure that there wasn't really any room for the playfulness of creativity -- you just had to put your head down and release whatever came out of it.

Ideally you'd have a very complete prototype made by a tiny team and THEN hire the army needed to make it.

 

[Nerwan]

I think this is a bit curse of creative professions - they produce luxury essentially. What's created is not necessary required for humans to enjoy life. So there are exploiting, high risk, etc. in gaming industry, or in entertainment industry overall.

It didn't used to be this way to the same extent. The internet has changed things. In the 80s people often used to buy games based on what was on the box in the shop some lots of people could make money even if their game wasn't the very best. Now people look at metacritic etc and only games with very high reviews make any money. This has made games a very risky business and has led to some of the high stress behaviour we see today I think, it's also cut down on some of the risk taking in terms of making new games although I think in recent years crowd sourcing has helped improve that situation, which is great.

 

[KING5TON]

True, but you feel like crap walking out the office past everyone else who's staying til 10.. And people do notice. It's the kind of thing that a very competent employee can get away with but a more novice employee might find leads to their redundancy in the next round. Very hard to find any legal redress against that.

Well the people staying in the office past 10 are making that choice. That's on them not the person leaving when their contractual hours are up.

If your company regularly makes redundancies then that's a whole separate problem.

It's like you're saying "It's better to chop off your leg than to have your arm chopped off" No it's not, it's better to have neither of those things.

Redundancies do happen but they will also happen to people who do massive amounts of overtime too as well as the people that do zero overtime.

If you're 1st the in queue because you won't do massive amounts of unpaid overtime then IMO you're getting away lightly.

Not in the US where most games companies are.. and you can be fired for no reason there too I think. Even in the UK lots of people work past the EU working hours directive (which I assume will no longer be a thing soon anyway)

We're not talking about the US, FD is in the UK. Brexit will not suddenly remove all EU laws, the UK will replicate all EU laws in the short term.

 

[KING5TON]

Oh, you won't get sacked for not doing overtime. You will just be on top of next redundancy list (for other reasons, really-really).

Meh, If the choice is between the chance of redundancy and working all hours then I'd risk the former.
It's not nice being made redundant.
Happened to me after 10 years with a company.
They made 90% of the employees redundant, me and a few others were kept on for another 6 months or so, I was one of the last people made redundant. I also never worked overtime unless I wanted to (which was as rare as rocking horse poop).


In the company I currently work for none of the devs work unpaid overtime ever. Some may do a few extra paid hours at the weekend if a release is looming but it's their choice and they can and do say no. We've also had a couple of rounds of redundancies over the past couple of years, no devs were made redundant, it was mainly middle managers that went.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

From what i've heard its the gaming industry that is worst. Often also the worst paying companies. I know a few devs who moved from gaming into business software because both money and conditions were much worse, even though they would have preferred to work on games. The persistent crunch was often cited as the breaking point for many. Crunches happen, but when you are constantly crunching its really bad for health and lifestyle.

Its also worth keeping in mind every time someone makes the comment "greedy devs" or "game X costs too much", a lot of it is being done on shoestring budgets. Not all games are massively profitable and not all gaming companies make huge profits. Some just make enough to get by and make the next title, and some fail.

 

[Nerwan]

I know a few devs who moved from gaming into business software because both money and conditions were much worse, even though they would have preferred to work on games.

Exactly what I did, and I don't regret it. I didn't do it because of crunch though (it was never that bad where I worked). I did it because of how volatile the industry was and I wanted a safer better paid job.

Well the people staying in the office past 10 are making that choice. That's on them not the person leaving when their contractual hours are up.

I agree to some extent. My attitude has always been to show a little willing but to be strict about how far I'll go. I'm happy to step up in a real crisis, but I'll only do it for a few days before I go back to contracted hours. It has too high a cost on my family otherwise and I really hate not seeing my kids each night. I've mostly avoided redundancy by being a friendly positive person and having niche skills that make me hard to get rid of.

 

[KING5TON]

I agree to some extent. My attitude has always been to show a little willing but to be strict about how far I'll go. I'm happy to step up in a real crisis, but I'll only do it for a few days before I go back to contracted hours. It has too high a cost on my family otherwise and I really hate not seeing my kids each night.

I agree and I have a similar arrangement, I do occasionally do long hours as I sometime have to travel in my work (got two 12+ hour days to look forward to next week, one a half 4 start ), but I take the extra time back so it evens out.
If there's some crisis I'll stay late to get it resolved but I want that time back and I'll only ever give a couple of hours though and if there's crisis every other day then there's bigger problems than I can solve and I'm out.

Employers will take as much as employees are willing to give. The problem a lot of the time is that employees let employers get away with too much because they're scared they'll lose their job. If you're living in fear of losing your job though what kind of life it that.

 

[Barking_Mad]

It's apparently especially bad if you're a new dev because you're not in a great position to not take jobs where crunch is bad, or to say no early on. Unionisation in games industry is (sadly) not likely to happen either. I know a few guys who've all worked on AAA games and they all say it can be really bad, even at companies with a reputation for 'knowing their stuff'. That said they've gone on to earn very good money and in one case are definitely in a position to 'name their price', work as a contractor and then take a month or two off with the pay.

When folk rage at Frontier and complain about lack of x, y, and z, spare a thought for those doing the heavy lifting work!

 

[Ian Skippy]

I'm currently finishing my PhD in Europe, and I have seen some similar stuff over here. Here's how it generally happens: a deal is made with China to take x-number of PhD students. China pays 60% of the wage, the assumption is the university pays the other 40%. They don't. And as going home empty-handed is pretty much a one-way ticket to an Apple factory they get used almost like slaves. A former promotor of mine (left that team...) even had a one-on-one chat with a collegue of mine and demanded he divorced his wife. Apparently having a social life was considered a distraction by the prof. When I was in a clinical setting nurses were told they would no longer have lunch at all as that would mean patients had no caretakers for an hour. The more obvious solution of hiring more staff was clearly considered a no-go.

I just personally ignore it. When my contract says I work 8 hours per day, that is how much I work. I'll make an exception now and then when there is a very good reason and I am being asked rather than ordered. Beyond that management can go suck a lemon.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

It didn't used to be this way to the same extent. The internet has changed things. In the 80s people often used to buy games based on what was on the box in the shop some lots of people could make money even if their game wasn't the very best.

It was easier to make games in the 80s.
Now complexity of content jumped tenfold, while people not prepared to pay 10x times more for their games.

 

[cpbtrading]

Had my own business for 30yrs, so 'crunch' was everyday. Well it felt that way sometimes.[blah]

 

[MissMeYet]

I'm surprised the thread continued after the (volunteer and unpaid) mods moved it here to purgatory. So, some personal info:

I'm ex-mil and I've had lots and lots of very long days without extra pay. That's what I agreed to when I joined.

The people making games are being asked to destroy their personal lives to make something that may (or may not) make some people happy for a few hours. I think they're being abused during "crunch", but that's just my opinion.

Totally serious here, but unionize! It's the only way to keep (or at least minimize) being exploited.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

Totally serious here, but unionize! It's the only way to keep (or at least minimize) being exploited.

Unionizing won't solve problem. Sure, you will stop exploitation, but company goes under.

Problem is, AAA games are damn expensive to make these days, due to ever increasing tech complexity. People don't realise how much more - and they don't even want to pay twice as much for their games. Hence, slave labour is the only solution ;(

 

[milligna]

Pfft. Nonsense. There will still be money enough in the racket to be worth dealing with unions -- and still non-union indie outfits for people to cut their teeth. It's not like film and TV stopped being made after unions started vigorously protecting cast and crew, or non-union work disappeared. I'm forever grateful my unions are there to negotiate with these jerks, well worth the dues.

 

[MissMeYet]

Unionizing won't solve problem. Sure, you will stop exploitation, but company goes under.(

Unionization works in the entertainment industry in USA.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

Unionization works in the entertainment industry in USA.

Sure.
Are you aware that same periodic crunching still here in the entertainment (or, at least, movie) industry in USA? As I've mention that's exactly where gaming industry got its ideas from. Unionisation didn't stop it - probably because they didn't work out how to make these blockbusters without it.

 

[dannysquid]

Unionizing won't solve problem. Sure, you will stop exploitation, but company goes under.

Problem is, AAA games are damn expensive to make these days, due to ever increasing tech complexity. People don't realise how much more - and they don't even want to pay twice as much for their games. Hence, slave labour is the only solution ;(

I seem to remember one of my game contracts explicitly said I couldn't be in a union, and there was some debate as to whether this was illegal and rendered our contracts worthless. Can't remember how it turned out.

These days I'm away from games and work as a one-man freelancer. And it turns out I'm the most exploitative boss in the world, demanding evenings and weekends from myself at all times. Being your own boss can backfire!

 

[lysan]

Crunch time is not just in the game industry, any project got crunch time one way or the other.

 

[Ozram]

Is crunch time written into Dev's contracts that it's mandatory?
If not then it's up to the individual devs to decide if they want to do it or not.
I'm pretty sure that they won't get sacked for not doing optional overtime.
Employment laws are a thing. Maximum working hours is a thing.

I'm pretty sure that devs aren't chained to their desks and whipped to work harder, they make a choice to work longer during the "crunch" because they want their game to be better which is fair play.

Pretty sure you don’t have full grasp on how the devil is in the details of a contract. Half the options you sign, sign away your rights. Don’t like it? See how unemployment suits you then. Complain? See how you do getting that next job. Choice? Lol! It’s be the lackey or go home for most industries. I don’t see how this one should be any different.

 

[znôrt]

In every other industry, "crunch" is called "bloody incompetent management". The games industry is the one that's proud of it though and finds enough sucker employees who take it.

nice summary.

True, but you feel like crap walking out the office past everyone else who's staying til 10.. And people do notice. It's the kind of thing that a very competent employee can get away with but a more novice employee might find leads to their redundancy in the next round.

even if not made redundant, just frowned upon, that's usually enough. places that depend on crunch time (and this is absolutely and exclusively bad management) develop a culture for it, and even if you don't buy the , you'll have a hard time letting your mates down. it's not exclusive of the games industry, but several factors make it pervasive there: young and inexperienced folks are more manipulable, the cool factor and the fact that the crunch culture has infected the whole sector, which means you will have to swallow it if you want to be part of it.

i know crunch quite well. my last job as a sw engineer was not in games, but in a very innovative company and on a very engaging topic. crunch time was very frequent (spectacular mismanagement) but i was really engaged with the projects, i was having a good time and learning a lot and other engineers were brillant and nice to work with, so i didn't mind much. for about a year and a half. some of them burnt out and left (that company is an absolute talent grinder), i decided that i liked my job, a lot, and just had to stop crunching, end of story. management and deadlines were not my business. i made it clear to every new manager that i was not responsible for their screw ups, and to every new team that while i'm a loyal teamplayer i'm not their nanny, and if they wanted to crunch that would be on them. i was ready to be fired or rejected but, to my surprise, everyone accepted it. hell, i even worked less hours from there on. they allowed me to do that because they knew my work was gonna be ok, and they were better of having me than not. i spent 6 more years at the company this way, and saw a lot of nice folks coming and going, burning out, until i finally got bored myself and quit.