VR, Stellar Forge- guess we have it pretty good.
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Imperial Slaves unnecessary? Imagine production in 3000 CE... What say ye cruel childeren of the corn.
- Thread starter Lee Archer
- Start date
Recalculating.....make a u turn!
What I always find interesting about the 'Imperial Slavery is wrong!' crowd is that they rarely address the inequality and perilous financial insecurity of the average Federation citizen. There's very little difference between the two states of being only that the Empire is more upfront about it, whereas the Federation hides behind a façade of freedom and democracy despite essentially being run by a group of mega-corporations for a thousand years.
Take the average citizen supporting their family in the 34th Century, they need to provide health care, food, shelter, security, education, etc. but all this comes at a price. If you don't have the means in the Empire, you sign yourself up for a period of indentured service commensurate to the value of your skills and the amount you owe. In the Federation you either take out a loan or it's part of your contract with your employer and dependent on your continued employment with them; leave and you lose access to all these benefits. Only the independently wealthy are free of this rat race.
Is there really much of a difference between being an Imperial Slave/Indentured Worker or having a Fed McJob?
Take the average citizen supporting their family in the 34th Century, they need to provide health care, food, shelter, security, education, etc. but all this comes at a price. If you don't have the means in the Empire, you sign yourself up for a period of indentured service commensurate to the value of your skills and the amount you owe. In the Federation you either take out a loan or it's part of your contract with your employer and dependent on your continued employment with them; leave and you lose access to all these benefits. Only the independently wealthy are free of this rat race.
Is there really much of a difference between being an Imperial Slave/Indentured Worker or having a Fed McJob?
Have to remember the Imperials use of the term 'slaves' is more roundabout than literal.
I recall one of the FDEV team say that an imperial 'slave' is more akin to maids, or butlers or people that offer professional qol improving services for good income, fair income, and Imperial endorsed standards of living for those that seek out that kind of life style.
It's why there's such an emphasis on 'slaves' in Imperial space, and why it's so popular. It's huge, and accounts for a massive wedge of interstellar credits for the Empire.
Remember 'slaves', have a Imperial controlled standard of living, and endorsed, legal, and mutually agreeable and beneficial for all parties. Next time you see your cleaner at work, don't think 'slave'. Think valued member of staff. Which they are.
I recall one of the FDEV team say that an imperial 'slave' is more akin to maids, or butlers or people that offer professional qol improving services for good income, fair income, and Imperial endorsed standards of living for those that seek out that kind of life style.
It's why there's such an emphasis on 'slaves' in Imperial space, and why it's so popular. It's huge, and accounts for a massive wedge of interstellar credits for the Empire.
Remember 'slaves', have a Imperial controlled standard of living, and endorsed, legal, and mutually agreeable and beneficial for all parties. Next time you see your cleaner at work, don't think 'slave'. Think valued member of staff. Which they are.
TBH, corporations have max profits as their guide, they will treat their employees well if it serves to max profits. If there is a surplus of labor, corporations will drive down the labor costs to what the "market" will bear. They will also chip away at labor rights and organizations and actively influence politics to suit their max profits.
Robotics also have eliminated human labor participation for obvious reasons, and corporations will likely continue to pursue such technology.
Fast forward to the ED dateline. It would seem that AI not being more developed and present seems incongruous. In space. hazards would probably cause a high mortality rate for humans and the need to carry life-support is cumbersome. An AI entity would be much better suited for such environments and more efficient.
If the explanation is that AI entities revolted and started to control anything with an IC and networked, then it may explain why so many things in ED aren't computer controlled.
As to the slavery/indentured servants argument, it seems the subjects of the Empire are such enlightened humans who would never abuse others or take advantage of their position of power, right? Because those practices existed in human history and they turned out so well, sarcasm intended.
To say that the Feds are bad when someone points to the Empire's practices doesn't excuse the Empire or any other power of their abuses.
I'm sure that Empire slavery takes into account the careful shipment and assigment of slaves to maintain the nuclear family or to not ship someone light years away from their home (with little recourse to return, until maybe they finish their term and then they will probably be forced to indenture themselves to finance the trip back to their home worlds). They also get nutritious food, health care, comfortable living quarters, reasonable working hours and legal rights, because that is the way humanity treats slaves, isn't it?
Robotics also have eliminated human labor participation for obvious reasons, and corporations will likely continue to pursue such technology.
Fast forward to the ED dateline. It would seem that AI not being more developed and present seems incongruous. In space. hazards would probably cause a high mortality rate for humans and the need to carry life-support is cumbersome. An AI entity would be much better suited for such environments and more efficient.
If the explanation is that AI entities revolted and started to control anything with an IC and networked, then it may explain why so many things in ED aren't computer controlled.
As to the slavery/indentured servants argument, it seems the subjects of the Empire are such enlightened humans who would never abuse others or take advantage of their position of power, right? Because those practices existed in human history and they turned out so well, sarcasm intended.
To say that the Feds are bad when someone points to the Empire's practices doesn't excuse the Empire or any other power of their abuses.
I'm sure that Empire slavery takes into account the careful shipment and assigment of slaves to maintain the nuclear family or to not ship someone light years away from their home (with little recourse to return, until maybe they finish their term and then they will probably be forced to indenture themselves to finance the trip back to their home worlds). They also get nutritious food, health care, comfortable living quarters, reasonable working hours and legal rights, because that is the way humanity treats slaves, isn't it?
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No Boy Scout can trade slaves like theyr’e a Trade Union just helping folks get a leg up to better life however...
There’s no visual / realistic context to ED players playing Slavers. Unlike, say, mining where you do the job, perform sundry tasks, pick your ore site and go to work taming it.
It would be creepy if FD GTA’d it with lots of detail like a D+D dungeon master.
Yeah, we pretty well gloss over the salient features of human ownership in our disembodied ship based existence.
Please, I just want to VR around my ships cabins and decks.
I really appreciate this forum for discussion while I work on a co-authored spec fiction screenplay and short story setup so forgive my “fine tooth comb” issues absurdly applied to a Vehicle based video game.
Futurists are always speculators. The fall of the Roman Empire, the fall of the Berlin Wall- inevitable? Maybe not.
Indentured servitude in post revolutionary USA started primarily with United Kingdom subjects but news of the poor treatment of “servants” and renegging on “freedom dues” resulted in the flow of “willing” participants tapering off.
The resultant chattel slavery didn’t always have a sociopathically cruel tone particularly in isolated homesteads where slave and owner were co-reliant and at odds with nature. A plethora of laws were then required to prevent friendly relations between the two groups.
Nonetheless the central social contract themes:
“Absolute power over another being corrupts absolutely” and “some rights/ conditions are necessary for meaningful sentient life- pursuit of happiness etc” have played out to predictable historical outcomes. Those aspects of history -French Revolution to the Khmer Rouge, Chinese / Russian People’s revolution are well known and readily accessible, no need to beat that servile horse. If 3300CE people have our emotional makeup; they’ll have our social fruck ups.
Pick a codified political model of humanity and her needs: freedom, self expression, self determination, Maslow’s hierarchy, Marx’s alienation of labour, Magna Carta, USA constitution, Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, UNited Nations Universal declaration of Human Rights; you’ll find a consensus that undermines the “there’s not much difference/ you’re a wage slave anyways” logic.
My personal experience has been that unsophisticated employers, while often well meaning tend to treat readily replaceable employees like pets, like a good Labrador Retriever that may need a bit of scolding, intimidating, belittling, manipulating, punishing. Not unlike an unequal romantic relationship.
But, the more rigid the workers obligation, whether via a contract or loaned tools/capital or supplied housing or accreditation as in an apprenticeship, the more emotional and abusive the employer’s exercise of authority becomes.
It’s easy to understand the tendency toward excesses of a “Slave” owner. Look at dog owners who, although they love their pets become furious went they disobey, chew a shoe, up a rug, refuse to come back from a crowd of dogs in the park.
Curling up their leash like a whip, barking out commands, yanking on their slaves collar, those kindly pet owners often transform into “little hitlers” (Elvis Costello)
No, no, no my friends.
You can’t empower we barely “dropped down from the trees” Homo Sapiens with that authority over another being.
Why the Empire topic is so timely; lately I do see a lot of interest in “strong leaders” and a “Well organized society”, a move toward conformity and intolerance. There’s lot of false equivalency and apologists abounding as economic purse strings pull tighter.
That is an undeniable historical constant.
When the economic going gets tough, the tough get intolerant, entitled, conspiracy enthralled and y.
In Defense of the EMPire as a possible future endpoint.
How does this play out in a more consumption unlimited future?
Or is ED a Cowboy western with bandits in spaceships?
I would think a Cult of Personality based, conformist fascist regime ala Starship Troopers with castes of “Citizens” would be very viable in consumer good rich future. With Big Brother surveillance and conformism reducing citizens to slavish worshippers of omniscinent, omnipotent rulers.
In that setting Military, Monarchial and Religious organizations vie for mindshare and legitimacy.
The goal is power, slavish worship but not “slaves” for economic purposes.
In that sense the Federation and Empire are very similar.
No Boy Scout can trade slaves like theyr’e a Trade Union just helping folks get a leg up to better life.
E
(Countervailing power via enslavement- pretty unlikely)
Grandma Lee-
Dey wants wants wants
N trades people to make they days
Blow dey ships to hell
If they wont listen then they gots to feel.
Feel dat fire you Imps,
Feel dat fire you shameless curs.
Burn baby
Burn
Imperial Slaves
We once heard David Braben liken them to Roman slaves - not the ones getting fed to the lions, but those working in the households of upper segment of Roman society - or to enlisted persons serving in the Legion.
These are not prisoners of war, nor captives taken during boarder raids. And odds are they do not do any heavy industrial work, manufacturing or skilled labor. I'd wager the majority of production is automated - we 3d print ships, why wouldn't pretty much every manufactured item be produced in the same manner?
But at the end of a hard day (sitting in Senate meetings, shaking hands with visiting dignitaries, pressing one's lips to the cheeks above you) when you want to unwind and relax, you probably don't want the cold metal fingers of a massage-o-matic when you could have the soft, perfumed fingers of an Imperial Slave to rub you down. Sure, the Geevesatron 2000 could pour you a glass of your favorite vintage of Lavian Brandy, but why not have it served by a nubile slave instead?
And unlike more "conventional" ("common"?) slaves, Imperial Slaves typically serve this role for a period of time - the time it takes for them to repay a debt, after all, why file bankruptcy and lose face when you can simply sell off your manual skills to repay that debt instead. This is in keeping with the concept of "Indentured Servants", where a person would enter into a contract to work for someone for a period of time to cover some expense they could not otherwise pay - such as transport from The Old Worlde to The States. We'll skip over the part where these contracts could be extended indefinitely by unscrupulous holders by added expenses such as "food, shelter, or clothing" to the debt, as this is merely an exercise in intent.
Like the house-slaves of the Roman Empire, and with Indentured Servants, these people did have rights - they might be able to vote, were often protected from physical abuse, and had a legal recourse - their day in court, if these rights were violated, which could and often included recourse including the cancellation of their Contract of Indenture. I suspect the same to hold true among Imperial Slaves.
"Standard" slaves would have no such rights or recourse.
And most importantly, this is not a discussion of the morality of slavery - slavery is as old as human history, and still in practice today, though often given more palatable names like "Community Service in lieu of Jail", or "Prison Work Program" or "Work Release", or perhaps the best known "H-1b Guest Worker". These are all forms of Indentured Servitude. And while the 13th Amendment does prohibit slavery, it is also important to note: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” - this does not apply to those duly convicted, which is how prison work programs and community service programs are able to operate legally, and honestly, I don't have a problem with this, when it is appropriate. Get convicted of littering, be sentenced to clean up an area where this is a problem, lesson learned, public good served, no harm done. Get convicted of spray painting graffiti, get sentenced to scrubbing building walls covered in graffiti - again, lesson learned, public good served, no harm done.
We once heard David Braben liken them to Roman slaves - not the ones getting fed to the lions, but those working in the households of upper segment of Roman society - or to enlisted persons serving in the Legion.
These are not prisoners of war, nor captives taken during boarder raids. And odds are they do not do any heavy industrial work, manufacturing or skilled labor. I'd wager the majority of production is automated - we 3d print ships, why wouldn't pretty much every manufactured item be produced in the same manner?
But at the end of a hard day (sitting in Senate meetings, shaking hands with visiting dignitaries, pressing one's lips to the cheeks above you) when you want to unwind and relax, you probably don't want the cold metal fingers of a massage-o-matic when you could have the soft, perfumed fingers of an Imperial Slave to rub you down. Sure, the Geevesatron 2000 could pour you a glass of your favorite vintage of Lavian Brandy, but why not have it served by a nubile slave instead?
And unlike more "conventional" ("common"?) slaves, Imperial Slaves typically serve this role for a period of time - the time it takes for them to repay a debt, after all, why file bankruptcy and lose face when you can simply sell off your manual skills to repay that debt instead. This is in keeping with the concept of "Indentured Servants", where a person would enter into a contract to work for someone for a period of time to cover some expense they could not otherwise pay - such as transport from The Old Worlde to The States. We'll skip over the part where these contracts could be extended indefinitely by unscrupulous holders by added expenses such as "food, shelter, or clothing" to the debt, as this is merely an exercise in intent.
Like the house-slaves of the Roman Empire, and with Indentured Servants, these people did have rights - they might be able to vote, were often protected from physical abuse, and had a legal recourse - their day in court, if these rights were violated, which could and often included recourse including the cancellation of their Contract of Indenture. I suspect the same to hold true among Imperial Slaves.
"Standard" slaves would have no such rights or recourse.
And most importantly, this is not a discussion of the morality of slavery - slavery is as old as human history, and still in practice today, though often given more palatable names like "Community Service in lieu of Jail", or "Prison Work Program" or "Work Release", or perhaps the best known "H-1b Guest Worker". These are all forms of Indentured Servitude. And while the 13th Amendment does prohibit slavery, it is also important to note: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” - this does not apply to those duly convicted, which is how prison work programs and community service programs are able to operate legally, and honestly, I don't have a problem with this, when it is appropriate. Get convicted of littering, be sentenced to clean up an area where this is a problem, lesson learned, public good served, no harm done. Get convicted of spray painting graffiti, get sentenced to scrubbing building walls covered in graffiti - again, lesson learned, public good served, no harm done.
It's all fine defending indentured servitude until you realise that a choice is not a choice when the economy is predicated on removing choice.
Slavers...
Slavers...
As long as there are people that prey on the weak and have no regard for human life and look down on anyone of lesser stature you will always have slavery.
It is cheap only sometimes effective labor, but when it comes to the little things that require a humans touch. Human slaves are the way to go...
It is cheap only sometimes effective labor, but when it comes to the little things that require a humans touch. Human slaves are the way to go...
I don't want no dirty Android trimming my verge. I'll stick to putting all my trust in my "indentured" groundskeepers. 
Call me a raving liberal if you want, but I think if you can buy people in bulk by the ton and then ship them where-ever is most profitable, there's probably something really bad going on
Well people who live in communist countries are basically imperial slaves already today
if you think about it. Guaranteed food
Guaranteed shelter
Guaranteed work
Guaranteed health care
However can't own anything.
The system in the year 3300 is just takening to the extreme, actually what we got in Elite already exists today as humans are traded and sold into slavery today.
Well people who live in communist countries are basically imperial slaves already today
Guaranteed food
Guaranteed shelter
Guaranteed work
Guaranteed health care
However can't own anything.
The system in the year 3300 is just takening to the extreme, actually what we got in Elite already exists today as humans are traded and sold into slavery today.
I've always viewed it as people just see the word "slave" and key in on that just to virtue signal. It always rings pretty hollow since it's pretty rare for anyone to actually do anything about it (a group did try flipping systems via the BGS in the past, then gave up.) Meanwhile all the other nasty stuff you can do in the game they conveniently ignore (or justify.)
That's not counting the nasty stuff people do just for progression (because it's more convenient.) Chemical Manipulators comes to mind. Slaves are bad, but it's okay to wantonly slaughter escaping refugees for parts.
At the end of the day, we're all just playing a game. Lets just leave it that way.
For my part, I'm a slave to jump and honk. People should be a lot more upset about that imo.
Lots of really interesting comments, but I think there are a lot of assumptions about what 'Imperial Slavery' means in an in game context. These aren't just people toiling away in the Imperial spice mines, they're accountants, doctors, engineers, hair dressers, farmers, pilots, chefs, you name it, they've just traded some of their freedoms to pay off a debt. They're not owned by the person they are working for, they have rights and guarantees under Imperial law, but there are consequences for breaking their contract to become an 'Imperial Slave'.
I see very little difference between the Imperial and Federal systems and I think that is the point, as ShadowWolf Kell has said, people just home in on the word 'slave' and forget that the Federation is in fact worse in some of these areas. None of the superpowers comes out of the whole 'slavery' issue completely clean, even the young and hip Alliance, but again that is the point, there are no 'good guys' or 'bad guys' we're all human and even with the best of intentions we make a mess of things.
One thing I would like to see change with 'Imperial Slavery' is a return to the original DDA concept where 'Imperial Slaves' were transported like passengers. Not only would this actually fit the existing lore, it would make more sense to deliver a cabin of 30 indentured accountants to a planet to carry out a tax audit, rather than root through a cargo canister lucky dip looking for someone with the skills you need.
I see very little difference between the Imperial and Federal systems and I think that is the point, as ShadowWolf Kell has said, people just home in on the word 'slave' and forget that the Federation is in fact worse in some of these areas. None of the superpowers comes out of the whole 'slavery' issue completely clean, even the young and hip Alliance, but again that is the point, there are no 'good guys' or 'bad guys' we're all human and even with the best of intentions we make a mess of things.
One thing I would like to see change with 'Imperial Slavery' is a return to the original DDA concept where 'Imperial Slaves' were transported like passengers. Not only would this actually fit the existing lore, it would make more sense to deliver a cabin of 30 indentured accountants to a planet to carry out a tax audit, rather than root through a cargo canister lucky dip looking for someone with the skills you need.
That pretty much sums up any economy. We have designed ours in such a way to use debt and interest as a trap - once they lure you in, you spend the rest of your life working to get out. Just ask the banks, the credit card companies, the student-lenders....
Pitcher-plant Economics, gotta love it.
I don't want no dirty Android trimming my verge. I'll stick to putting all my trust in my "indentured" groundskeepers.
Can't you trim your own verge? I mean, that's kind of personal isn't it?