What is the value of a credit?

[House0fDerp]

Play the game as you want. Grind away, pile money, but when you're buying that third Cutter and feeling a bit disinterested in everything, remember me, having a great time in Couriers, Cobras and Keelbacks, for three straight years without ever running out of things to do and places to be.

Almost as if rate of income was largely irrelevant to your enjoyment and entirely personal, which in no way invalidates anyone else' opinions of the game or suggests their enjoyment would mirror yours.

Seems like a bad basis for changing the game.

On the flip side - everyone should be able to have an Anaconda - a virtual space ship - within a few hours because you deem it appropriate?

<Devil's Advocate>Why not? If what you enjoy most is a conda, why hold you back? If not, why make you wait and potentially invest a great deal of time into finding that out and souring the experience as a whole?
</Devil's Advocate>

I think there is a balance between grind and easy. Not everyone should have a "big 3 ship", but it should be achievable by everyone in a reasonable time frame. What that reasonable time frame is...?

We don't all own Lambo's, AMG Merc's, Ducati 1299 R's and Leerjets. that's what FDL's, Anacondas, cutter's etc are - the very high end. It should take time and effort to get there. They are not really any more "fun", per se. The problem, I think, is more so that getting there is not as much fun as it should be.

Z...

Real life examples are terrible things because they seemingly always fail to account for the realities of socioeconomic differences. Those realities aren't something Elite tries to replicate (and to a large degree seem to be misrepresented here, it's often most of those things are a matter of position or preexisting wealth as opposed to time for the extremely vast part of the human population).

 

[NW3]

100k/hour = 1470hours for a conda = 61.25 straight days of play with no breaks at this allegedly optimal rate.
5 hours/day = 294 Days
3 hours/day = 490 Days
2 hours/day = 735 Days
I'm genuinely trying to work out the benefit of such a limit to income. Help me out here?

Those quotes seem about right to me. Earning a big ship should be a major accomplishment, something you really felt like you EARNED, not an instant gimme. I've been playing for a couple of years now, averaging a few hours a day; no exploits. I still don't have an Anaconda, but I don't really want one either. I've flown all the big ships in the beta; they are big and slow. I'm much happier in my AspX.

You know what, the more I think back the more I realize how much better would everything be.
Yes, I said 100k/hour. Four months to earn enough to buy an Anaconda. And it was fabulous.

Remember (probably not, as I see) the time when the Elite universe was meant to be place where commanders would coexist and cooperate? Where PvP was certainly possible but rare and extremely dangerous for both parties and therefore meaningful and fun? Where PvP was done in Eagles and Vipers, because, like you rightly said, nobody would risk losing and Anaconda?
Those were the days, I tell you.

I agree, 100%.

100k per hour maybe a bit too low but it's much more to what I would vote for than what we have now. We would still have a game now what meanwhile has turned into a joke.

Unfortunately, you're right. It does feel like a joke.

I dropped in at about 2.3, and it took ages to get from Eagle to Cobra.

It took months for me to get in a Cobra. It felt like a real achievement. It was a great ship. Because payouts were low, I was in that Cobra for 6 months or so. I had a great time flying that ship. That experience is completely lost now and current players have no idea of what they've missed.

 

[House0fDerp]

Those quotes seem about right to me. Earning a big ship should be a major accomplishment, something you really felt like you EARNED, not an instant gimme. I've been playing for a couple of years now, averaging a few hours a day; no exploits. I still don't have an Anaconda, but I don't really want one either. I've flown all the big ships in the beta; they are big and slow. I'm much happier in my AspX.

Ok everyone, we need to talk about this self contradiction. In the course of the same posts you express the desire to have large ships feel like exceptional accomplishments then immediately counter the weight of any such argument by professing your love for smaller ships.

Firstly, no, a timesink is probably not something one should be proud of or feel accomplished about. A completed complex task or triumphed test of skill perhaps, but a timesink is a shallow eventuality, not a goal. It's something that will inevitably happen regardless of will of effort save simply leaving the game. I struggle to think of "I played a lot of E" as an accomplishment in itself, and thus still don't get the worth being applied to it. I seriously don't understand the "It took me months" brag. It's like being slow is a badge of honor for some, and everyone needs to wear it.

Second, that you prefer the AspX to the conda is a personal preference which while certainly nothing to begrudge, doesn't have anything to do evaluating the pace of the game. Well, there is one exception to that: Advocating that others be artificially restricted to ships in the same range to retain some competitive advantage others could have on you through preferring more capable ships. I'm hoping no one here is that petty and is only genuinely mistaking the basis of their own subjective enjoyment with a more universal truth. Otherwise the only motivation is attempting to advocate knowing sabotage to a playstyle you acknowledge other may prefer to yours.

 

[Zeeman]

Those quotes seem about right to me. Earning a big ship should be a major accomplishment, something you really felt like you EARNED, not an instant gimme. I've been playing for a couple of years now, averaging a few hours a day; no exploits. I still don't have an Anaconda, but I don't really want one either. I've flown all the big ships in the beta; they are big and slow. I'm much happier in my AspX.



I agree, 100%.



Unfortunately, you're right. It does feel like a joke.


It took months for me to get in a Cobra. It felt like a real achievement. It was a great ship. Because payouts were low, I was in that Cobra for 6 months or so. I had a great time flying that ship. That experience is completely lost now and current players have no idea of what they've missed.

Agreed. Each time I bought a new ship, it did not feel like a stepping stone, it felt like I had accomplished something. Then I got to spend time with said ship, learning to get the most of it.I also kept all my ships, which I now engineer when I feel like it, I flew my Cobra for the first time in a year a few weeks back, used it as a planetary landing ship - it was a heck of a lot of fun, especially with G5 DD's through canyons.

Z...

 

[Zeeman]

Ok everyone, we need to talk about this self contradiction. In the course of the same posts you express the desire to have large ships feel like exceptional accomplishments then immediately counter the weight of any such argument by professing your love for smaller ships.

Firstly, no, a timesink is probably not something one should be proud of or feel accomplished about. A completed complex task or triumphed test of skill perhaps, but a timesink is a shallow eventuality, not a goal. It's something that will inevitably happen regardless of will of effort save simply leaving the game. I struggle to think of "I played a lot of E" as an accomplishment in itself, and thus still don't get the worth being applied to it. I seriously don't understand the "It took me months" brag. It's like being slow is a badge of honor for some, and everyone needs to wear it.

Second, that you prefer the AspX to the conda is a personal preference which while certainly nothing to begrudge, doesn't have anything to do evaluating the pace of the game. Well, there is one exception to that: Advocating that others be artificially restricted to ships in the same range to retain some competitive advantage others could have on you through preferring more capable ships. I'm hoping no one here is that petty and is only genuinely mistaking the basis of their own subjective enjoyment with a more universal truth. Otherwise the only motivation is attempting to advocate knowing sabotage to a playstyle you acknowledge other may prefer to yours.

It's not a contradiction. When I bought my first Anaconda, it was a huge accomplishment. I spent 9 months exploring to earn the 250m cr it cost me to buy it and fit it out for exploration. The Asp was still more fun to fly, but having the Anaconda now available for long distance travel was something I felt I had earned. I still prefer and enjoy the small ships to a larger degree than the big ones, but there are, I am happy to admit, some things that the Anaconda does that no other ship can. It will get a few extra LY above any other ship, as an explorer, that does matter. But I earned mine over a year and a half (from my first Beta outing).

I now have more credits than I know what to do with, with several Anacondas, Asps, in fact, multiples of most ships outfitted for different roles. It's still fun, but the struggling to survive part, and working for it was the best part.

I'd say it's "the kids of today", except a lot of players are around my age (mid 30's-mid 40's+). Maybe this "must have now" mentality is just all encompassing now. As an example, my GF and her siblings will actually get onto Google and search for the endings and spoilers about the shows they are in the middle of watching.

If that isn't a What The Frack moment, I don't know what is - and when I tell people about this, many, and by that I mean most, shrug and ask what the problem is. If you can't wait 'till the end of the movie you are watching to see what happens... What hope do you have of waiting for anything?

I have a CBR954RR, but want a Ducati 1299S, and a KTM690SMC. I can have one, but not both. I can afford either, and will choose soon, but that doesn't stop me enjoying my Fireblade, even if it is 14 years old. I also seriously enjoy taking small bikes for a ride - nothing like riding an old VT250 or the like to remind you what it's like to redline through 4 gears and still be under the speed limit! My GF's father has a Kawasaki KLX250 - that thing is a hoot! I don't think it can break 80km/h, but it is so light and flickable!

The really fun bit is rounding up people one Litrebikes on a 250, because they wanted the shiny big bike, rather than learning to actually ride first.

Z...

 

[MrFailfactory]

Ok everyone, we need to talk about this self contradiction. In the course of the same posts you express the desire to have large ships feel like exceptional accomplishments then immediately counter the weight of any such argument by professing your love for smaller ships.

Firstly, no, a timesink is probably not something one should be proud of or feel accomplished about. A completed complex task or triumphed test of skill perhaps, but a timesink is a shallow eventuality, not a goal. It's something that will inevitably happen regardless of will of effort save simply leaving the game. I struggle to think of "I played a lot of E" as an accomplishment in itself, and thus still don't get the worth being applied to it. I seriously don't understand the "It took me months" brag. It's like being slow is a badge of honor for some, and everyone needs to wear it.

Second, that you prefer the AspX to the conda is a personal preference which while certainly nothing to begrudge, doesn't have anything to do evaluating the pace of the game. Well, there is one exception to that: Advocating that others be artificially restricted to ships in the same range to retain some competitive advantage others could have on you through preferring more capable ships. I'm hoping no one here is that petty and is only genuinely mistaking the basis of their own subjective enjoyment with a more universal truth. Otherwise the only motivation is attempting to advocate knowing sabotage to a playstyle you acknowledge other may prefer to yours.

Really, it comes down to the difference between the mentalities of "I Earn," versus "I Deserve." The time sink isn't the accomplishment, but you already know that. You are not as clever as you think you are, just fyi.

The whole discussion is moot, anyway - not because it has happened, but because it had to happen. As Frontier adds more content, the early ramp needs to get shorter. Every MMO does this in some form or other, and it is inevitable.

Riôt

 

[Chris Simon]

Really, it comes down to the difference between the mentalities of "I Earn," versus "I Deserve." The time sink isn't the accomplishment, but you already know that. You are not as clever as you think you are, just fyi.

The whole discussion is moot, anyway - not because it has happened, but because it had to happen. As Frontier adds more content, the early ramp needs to get shorter. Every MMO does this in some form or other, and it is inevitable.

Riôt

Sadly true. Although I won't change my mind that timesink strategy was still better, more enjoyable and more rewarding than artificial "endgame" money sinks that were and going to be introduced.

 

[House0fDerp]

Really, it comes down to the difference between the mentalities of "I Earn," versus "I Deserve." The time sink isn't the accomplishment, but you already know that. You are not as clever as you think you are, just fyi.

The whole discussion is moot, anyway - not because it has happened, but because it had to happen. As Frontier adds more content, the early ramp needs to get shorter. Every MMO does this in some form or other, and it is inevitable.

Riôt

That would have been a valid point were it not for examples of the kind of things I would equate to earning. Waiting is not among them. I am patient, so time doesn't feel like a test in itself. Something I'm not sure I can do on the other hand, or which makes me acquire knowledge would be something I'd qualify as an accomplishment.

There is irony in defending the idea of just making things an eventuality while trying to draw a distinction between deserving and earning. Timesinks are merely deserving through presence, not earning. But you already know that most likely, you are not as clever as you think you are, fyi.

 

[WR3ND]

Really? Chris said 100k credits per hour. That is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on here...

It's actually not all that far off from what I've averaged playing the game so far, and I get along just fine in the game. But yeah, I don't care for the PVP meta really either. I don't really play this game as some kind of sport with throwaway equipment. People that do are playing a different game than me, regardless of what mode we're in, sort of like playing checkers with a chess set. Oh well, to each their own... I guess.

 

[MrFailfactory]

That would have been a valid point were it not for examples of the kind of things I would equate to earning. Waiting is not among them. I am patient, so time doesn't feel like a test in itself. Something I'm not sure I can do on the other hand, or which makes me acquire knowledge would be something I'd qualify as an accomplishment.

There is irony in defending the idea of just making things an eventuality while trying to draw a distinction between deserving and earning. Timesinks are merely deserving through presence, not earning. But you already know that most likely, you are not as clever as you think you are, fyi.

Actually, I only answered a question of yours from earlier in the thread. Nothing more.

Also, your opinion as to what constitutes something earned in your own life is just that - your opinion.

Riôt

 

[House0fDerp]

Also, your opinion as to what constitutes something earned in your own life is just that - your opinion.

Riôt

So then why should others feel more justified ecpressing their opinions as facts? Or is this a "You're right as long as you agree with me, otherwise it's just opinions," kind of thing?

You say you answered a question of mine, but I don't recall asking a question that would be answered by the presumption of deserving something, not when that's already the presumption through time. Especially in the context of a game.

 

[Surprised Brony]

Such extremes. I don't think some of the current extremes that go above 30m cr/hr should be possible, but I also think sustaining a large ship and covering rebuy and such needs to be viable.

Yeah, you can progress extremely fast in this game now, but it only took me a day in the Xbox One GPP days (way before Horizons) to reach an A-rated cobra. Not one day of play, but 24 hours. Only a few of those were spent earning credits. Then again, I tend to understand games easily and learn about them quickly.

My stance is that we need credit gain to scale with your Commander's overall reputation up to a point. Sort of like harmless-elite missions, but a separate scale to keep sidewinder from hitting Anniville in a day.

 

[WR3ND]

Such extremes. I don't think some of the current extremes that go above 30m cr/hr should be possible, but I also think sustaining a large ship and covering rebuy and such needs to be viable.

...

Depends how you play the game. I could get an Anaconda if for some strange reason I actually wanted one. I just prefer piloting small ships as I think they're more enjoyable and rewarding to use in general.

I haven't lost a ship since 3301 (2015) and only 5 ships total worth a total of around 1.8 million in rebuys. 3 of the 5 ship losses were PVP related, 1 alcohol, and 1 PVE.

 

[NW3]

Really, it comes down to the difference between the mentalities of "I Earn," versus "I Deserve."

That sounds about right.

I enjoy riding "centuries" on my bicycle; that's 100 miles in a day. (seriously)

I'm now 1 year into painting all the porches and decks on my house. I've got at least a year to go. (I have 3 large decks, 1 small deck, 3 staircases, and 2 porches.) I could certainly pay someone to do it, but they wouldn't do as good of a job. I'm sanding it first and doing 2 coats with a brush, not a sprayer. When I'm finished, I'll have the pride of a "job well done".

I guess this sums it up: I really want to play ED in VR, but the current headsets have a few serious flaws, so I've signed up on Kickstarter for a Pimax 5K, which fixes most/all of those flaws, but I have to wait until Jan/Feb to get it. It's a good thing I'm a patient man. I'm sure I'll really enjoy the headset, once it finally arrives.

 

[House0fDerp]

That sounds about right.

I enjoy riding "centuries" on my bicycle; that's 100 miles in a day. (seriously)

I'm now 1 year into painting all the porches and decks on my house. I've got at least a year to go. (I have 3 large decks, 1 small deck, and 2 porches.) I could certainly pay someone to do it, but they wouldn't do as good of a job. I'm sanding it first and doing 2 coats with a brush, not a sprayer. When I'm finished, I'll have the pride of a "job well done".

I guess this sums it up: I really want to play ED in VR, but the current headsets have a few serious flaws, so I've signed up on the Kickstarter for a Pimax 5K, which fixes most/all of those flaws, but I have to wait until Jan/Feb to get it. It's a good thing I'm a patient man.

I think perhaps you gents have lost the scope of the conversation alongside the rather odd presumption that because someone doesn't see the logic in arbitrarily extending the time it takes to do something in game they do nothing that takes time out of game.

Maybe remember the scale of what we're discussing.

 

[NW3]

I think perhaps you gents have lost the scope of the conversation alongside the rather odd presumption that because someone doesn't see the logic in arbitrarily extending the time it takes to do something in game they do nothing that takes time out of game.

Rep++ for a civil reply.

Actually, I'm trying to answer your earlier question... "I'm genuinely trying to work out the benefit of such a limit to income. Help me out here?" ...by explaining why I feel the way I do about ED.

Time and Effort == Rewarding Experience

Quick and Easy Path == Hollow Reward (and subsequent boredom with this game)

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Perhaps. And perhaps other people should realize that what's good for long-term gameplay.

Let me guess, you know exactly what is good for long-term game play?

I can tell you what isn't good for long-term game play - doing the same tasks over and over and over, tens of thousands of times, for years on end.

At least, not for me. Might be alright for you, and if so, I salute your tenacity.

For me, what is good for long-term game play is:

Evolving Content - not just more of the same old thing, but new things, different things, things I have not seen before - even if the doing of these things is essentially the same. There are certain comforts found in the familiar that makes it easier to embrace what is new and different.

Case in point:

The addition of Fighter Bays and NPC's to operate them.

Yes, we've done Blow Things Up a million times over, but this adds a new twist, new depth, new variation on Blow Things Up that made Blow Things Up interesting and fun again. As long as innovations continue, long-term game play will follow.

That's what does it for me.

 

[House0fDerp]

Rep++ for a civil reply.

Actually, I'm trying to answer your earlier question... "I'm genuinely trying to work out the benefit of such a limit to income. Help me out here?" ...by explaining why I feel the way I do about ED.

Time and Effort == Rewarding Experience

Quick and Easy Path == Hollow Reward (and subsequent boredom with this game)

That's the rub, isn't it.

Some of us value the balance of time and effort differently. Or more pointedly, define effort differently. If one does the same thing one would be doing if a reward didn't exist to get that reward, did they exert effort for it? Is there no effort to be found in finding how things work so as to maximize the return for time put in?

More importantly, will boredom universally be avoided by denying that capacity? I don't think the answer to that is yes. For some it clearly is, but the idea that the game would be better if the entire playerbase was restricted seems odd. You would be just as happy as you already are, but someone currently out there in a cutter and enjoying themselves may not have been feeling the same in a cobra and left due to pacing. Maybe they keep their interest by having both. That's an option only enabled through progress, not purely time.

So allow me top modify the question: Was the intent of the game in your opinion only to attract one type of player, the type not specifically goal oriented and not wanting something with both reward and time sensitivity?

 

[NW3]

Was the intent of the game in your opinion only to attract one type of player, the type not specifically goal oriented and not wanting something with both reward and time sensitivity?

My opinion of "the intent of the game" is irrelevant. DB himself said the intent was to build the kind of game he enjoys playing.

Personally, I liked his original vision more than I like what the game has become. I still enjoy it, but many of the subsequent changes have not made the game better, imo. Granted, many of the changes have made the game better too: Landing on planets, the SRV, the new ships, even the Thargoids.

 

[House0fDerp]

My opinion of "the intent of the game" is irrelevant. DB himself said the intent was to build the kind of game he enjoys playing.

Personally, I liked his original vision more than I like what the game has become. I still enjoy it, but many of the subsequent changes have not made the game better, imo. Granted, many of the changes have made the game better too: Landing on planets, the SRV, the new ships, even the Thargoids.

That seems a bit of a step down from the prior advocacy of lowering incomes: to say "this way would be better" to then say "my opinion is irrelevant." And the question was in response to the advocacy of the idea that a low income game would be a better one which held more long term interest, so while it may not hold sway over what it becomes, it's certainly relevant to the conversation at hand is it not?

Maybe it's my phrasing: Do you feel the game would be strengthened by catering to those who want it to demand more time of them for what they have, even to the potential exclusion of those put off by that?

Also, I would be overly presumptuous to assume what the vision of the game truly looks like vs what currently is so I'll not wade down that path of his personal intent.