Putting the crime in crime and punishment.

[Drelthar]

If you want to be a pirate, learn to disable and rob ships. It should take less time to disable than detroy a ship, (if it doesnt then that needs work!) so the only threat you have being destroying their ship is not really a valid argument.

You can threaten to rob them. Then carry out that threat if they don't comply.

If you want to be a brutal murderous pirate, then you can kill them too, but you'll be a wanted criminal in no time.


Seems to make sense to me.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

Moar non-lethal weapons and or options.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Moar non-lethal weapons and or options.

And turning off ships, making them floating wrecks. Yeah, I would approve that.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

lol,
why should FDev put in rewards for murderer?

if you choose to play a criminal murderer - then its your choice that noone has forced upon you.
if its not rewarding for you, why do you do it?

it also sounds like you are not really that dedicated to be a pirate either.

 

[Drelthar]

Moar non-lethal weapons and or options.

Yeah, I've been saying this for a long time.

I would be perfectly happy with a weapon which deals 0% hull damage, but normal damage to shields and modules.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Simply put. No one robs a bank for no reason.

The pay off should be good for being a successful criminal. And being caught or killed should have equal consequences. At the same time, it should also be player driven. They already have a step in the right direction with the pilots federation bounty.

I would love to see more context besides pirating and killing. I would also like to sign up for something like 30 minutes to an hour of being a known criminal. Being lit up on the galaxy map to be hunted. And only able to dock in anarchy systems, or after you accept the fact you signed up to be a criminal. You cant land at all until the timer runs out.

You should also have an objective to complete while signed up to be a criminal. Kill X amount of players, Transfer X amount of illegal goods, whatever it is.

There is a lot that can go into this. And make it fun and engaging for EVERYONE!

Great post my dude.

 

[Reinbach III]

I'm all for more interesting high risk, high reward PvE crime options. This would improve the game to some players without really harming the experience of others.
It would be ill advised to encourage PvP crime though; that kind of change improves the game for some at the expense of many others. This kind of thing could lead to people not playing in open mode at all or even quitting the game altogether, leading to less revenue generated by the game.

 

[rrobes]

The gentleman pirate is a niche career, very difficult to sustain, as has been noted before, there just isn't support or acceptance of the role.

Even if you try to engage in banter and sweet-talk the victim out of some cargo, the pirate is still using the threat of damage/destruction against the victim to obtain the goods, the majority of players will not role play w/ you.

Many are past victims of NPC piracy (if they trade regularly) and probably have a low tolerance for being pirated. Others may plainly hate pirates for what they are and are predictably hostile to anything the pirate may want to achieve.

All that being said, piracy could be boosted if a few tools could be given to the pirates, such as a updated version of grappling hooks where the pirate could maneuver his ship and snare the victim, bringing his own ship to the belly of the target ship. A hatch break arm would deploy to start stealing the cargo. A limpet could then be launched to remove cargo from the victim's hold and transfer it to the pirate ship. Destruction of the victim ship could be avoided.

Still, the cargo you obtain from piracy is not likely to make you rich (unless you go after lo-temp diamonds) plus the amount of cargo you can carry in your pirate ship is limited because I can't see large cargo carriers as pirate vessels.

Another alternative is the hijacking of the ship where it is taken to the pirates' lair after it's disabled, unloaded and maybe stripped of modules and then dumped in a nearby system for the victim to limp to port and make repairs.

It would take redesign on FD's part and I don't run the place, it's their baby, however, OP made a lot of valid points, it's just that he's a PIRATE at the end.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

You do have some points and criminal gameplay needs to be expanded.

- PVP is still alive and well but blatantly attacking someone outside of Anarchy space IS a crime unless the target is wanted, as it should be.
- If you want pure PVP then look at anarchy space or Powerplay

That said, anarchy, low sec and other less legal areas need to have something special to draw people there.

- Hide Black markets if you have no bounty on your head (legal citizens usually have no idea where to buy illegal stuff)
- Allow black markets to buy AND sell illegal goods
- Add "stolen goods" as an option in anarchy system commodities at half price but beware being scanned in legal space
- Make criminals and pirates FEAR high sec space but add their profit there to sell stolen goods at a high price
- Make lawful citizens fear anarchy but lure traders there for the cheap stolen goods and where common goods are expensive
- Add a "notoriety" rating for every crime to get a "Notoriety Elite Rating" similar to trading but making criminal actions like smuggling, assassinations and similar missions tied to that instead of regular trade elite rating.

 

[bladebss]

I'm all for more interesting high risk, high reward PvE crime options. This would improve the game to some players without really harming the experience of others.
It would be ill advised to encourage PvP crime though; that kind of change improves the game for some at the expense of many others. This kind of thing could lead to people not playing in open mode at all or even quitting the game altogether, leading to less revenue generated by the game.

No! Well yes and no realy, the pvp is what i REALY want! As long as the punishment is balanced well with the risk. Yea npc interactions would help big time but we should be able to do the same.

Its not ruined game play its... game play! Npcs pirate you.. or at least try to. They bounty hunt you and they try to murder you. Players in open can do the same and thats half the fun!

People who dont want the risk and danger that comes from being in open should not be there.

The problem comes when there is no consaquences for people. Because then they do it with impunity.

Like i said, if you go kill an inocent trader you will find your self in a world of pain rather quickly. Especialy in quarter 1 of next year! And you have to leave the system and cant hang around starports. And are basicaly banished to operate out of anarchy systems. So the ganker/griefers murderes what ever.. wont be around to get you again and may well die. Just like the trader did.

People may well quit the game because they CANT do pvp crimes. For me it was a driving force and dream i had before i played that i would be able to pirate people and be a criminal on the run from the law and other player bounty hunters etc. I want to be pirated! Trade is so boring without the risk of pirates. I love the rush!.. even if its only in my head cus no one pirates me.. EVER!

 

[CMDR-AD]

Simply put. No one robs a bank for no reason.

The pay off should be good for being a successful criminal.

I dunno, there's a huge number of people who will steal a $10 item from a shop. They may be successful in their theft, but they still got a reward worth nearly nothing.

I'd rephrase the second sentence as: "To be a successful criminal, target the good pay offs."

And that's the rub for me, in so far as piracy goes in Elite. There is no commodity that I can really see that's worth stealing. Certainly not the joke that is tasty bio-waste. But even stealing 10 or 15 tons of commodities that are worth $3k each... Really? When CMDRs are complaining that missions are only offering the same $30k rewards, this is what I'd choose to do as a pirate? Seems to be on the same level as feeling like a success for stuffing a $10 item down the pants.

Somehow it seems like there should be some kind of BIG prize out here. As in your example, bank robbery. Some actually valuable prizes... IF the CMDR can manage to take them. In a single player game, this is pie to do. Just have NPC ships carrying financial assets data. When successfully heisted, bingo... Enjoy the $3 million credits just hack-deposited into your account balance. But the risks continue past the brutal NPC fight to get it. Randomly from then on, when CMDR with hacked funds in their account spends some money, the transaction is flagged and they become Wanted in-system (or by a minor faction, maybe). Ship lost while wanted for stolen credits? They'll be confiscated from your balance on rebuy... Ouch.

But on a PvP level, this isn't possible. Nothing a CMDR has in cargo will ever be worth that much, that big a juicy target, to make it possible to be really successful at crime.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
Still, the cargo you obtain from piracy is not likely to make you rich (unless you go after lo-temp diamonds) plus the amount of cargo you can carry in your pirate ship is limited because I can't see large cargo carriers as pirate vessels.…

Piracy only makes sense if it is the only way for the pirate to get something the pirate would otherwise not get.
This can be because the pirate has no access to the markets where those goods are traded or because the goods are restricted.
And even if the would be pirate has no access to certain markets or there are restricted goods, becoming a pirate makes only sense if the risk vs. reward vs. effort is balanced.
Why would anybody sane become a pirate if earning more money is easier, less risky and quicker by doing something legal?

The problem of piracy and crime in this game is, there is no reason for piracy.
Almost all commodities are easily accessible. Every CMDR has easy access to all markets and there are plenty methods of making credits without having to become a criminal.

The only reason to engage in criminal activities in this game is because some player consider doing those things fun - nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't help if it affects/reduces the fun of other players.

In my opinion things would dramatically change if there where situations in the game where becoming a criminal is not only a valid choice but maybe even the only choice.
This would require activities that are legal having bad consequences in some cases - getting cut off from markets and other profitable activities.
It would require activities that result in extreme profits, but that some or a lot of players can do because they are not allowed to.
And it would require ships, ship maintenance and modules to be extremely expensive for higher tier ships.

To be honest, I have no idea how this could be implemented without everybody getting angry about it.


TL;DR: The economy and the basic design of the game doesn't support the concept of piracy.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

The problem of piracy and crime in this game is, there is no reason for piracy.
Almost all commodities are easily accessible. Every CMDR has easy access to all markets and there are plenty methods of making credits without having to become a criminal.

First of all it has always been a choice to become one. Also you can balance and tweak game that at certain points it might be path of least resistance.

From PvE point of view having solid piracy is very possible. From PvP it is mostly RP and in the end choice of commander to do so. If FD provides tools to do that, suddenly RP might become more of people choose to do first before just pew pewing newbies.

 

[bladebss]

I haul 5 million credits of slaves about quite regularly amd paladium. If i have to give up 20% of my load to a pvp pirate they just made 1mill that is worth it.. just they have to scoop 100tons of cargo canisters under HEAVY fire from the cops and mabe the trade conda i am flying. Suddenly not so worth it when you could just go blow up a generator for the same if not more cash.

If i could parallel dock onto another ship cargo hatch to cargo hatch or some thing and just extract the goods that would be nice.

Better yet just bord the ship kill the pilot.. or make them get in the escape pod and jettison them. And take the lot.. its fine there insured and i get one hell of a prize. It would be harder than just killing them and if they kill me during hostile bording i would have a rebuy... ? And they say space legs has no game play lol


Also can any one remember when you had to pirate unknown probes? It involved taking on a convoy of vultures and anacondas and then getting the shields down on the ship with the UA in and then stealing it. If only some thing like that was available but the comodity was worth say 2 mill on the lack market like some prototype weapon or something. Npcs could be carrying them and players could get missions to transport them safly to there destination. And pirates could steal them if they could. It would be small so not much cargo would be required on eather side so it will be a war ship carrying it?

 

[Reinbach III]

No! Well yes and no realy, the pvp is what i REALY want! As long as the punishment is balanced well with the risk. Yea npc interactions would help big time but we should be able to do the same.

Its not ruined game play its... game play! Npcs pirate you.. or at least try to. They bounty hunt you and they try to murder you. Players in open can do the same and thats half the fun!

People who dont want the risk and danger that comes from being in open should not be there.

The problem comes when there is no consaquences for people. Because then they do it with impunity.

Like i said, if you go kill an inocent trader you will find your self in a world of pain rather quickly. Especialy in quarter 1 of next year! And you have to leave the system and cant hang around starports. And are basicaly banished to operate out of anarchy systems. So the ganker/griefers murderes what ever.. wont be around to get you again and may well die. Just like the trader did.

People may well quit the game because they CANT do pvp crimes. For me it was a driving force and dream i had before i played that i would be able to pirate people and be a criminal on the run from the law and other player bounty hunters etc. I want to be pirated! Trade is so boring without the risk of pirates. I love the rush!.. even if its only in my head cus no one pirates me.. EVER!

On NPCs pirating you; those interdictions are far easier to evade than those of other players and won't be up against heavily engineered ships even if they do mess up the mini game, so it's not the same experience at all. I suppose they could make it the same experience by making the PvP interdictions just as easy to evade and restricting it to unengineered pirates, but somehow I doubt you'd want that.

You mentioned earlier in this topic how often people combat log or high wake at the earliest opportunity when you try to pirate them. That should give you a big clue as to how much you are in the minority when it comes to wanting to be pirated. The fact is, you don't just want PvP; you want PvP against people who don't want to do PvP. In a game where there are plenty of options for people who want PvP to fight each other, I don't see the need to encourage and reward PvP forced on others.

As for the idea that people who can't get rich from griefing quitting the game, think about what the career pirate to victim ratio is and it's pretty obvious which way will lose more players.

 

[Andovar]

I dont want criminal activity to be easier i like that its harder.

I want there to be more potential reward for playing the harder role. More INTERESTING game play/role play.

Pirate bases should require a bounty or good rep to dock there! They should be the black market!
In a fed system where everything is ilegal, a pirtae base there should accept the goods on there market aswell as fence stolen goods, hatch braker limpet controllers should only be sold in places like this!

Lots of assasination missions to kill celebrities and police chiefs.

Being in good rep with the loacal pirates should be like being in good rep with the local law enforcement.

Piracy missions to go steal a load of diamonds from a ship passing thrugh at x system at x time to show them rich do gooders they arnt safe. Go get the dimonds and get a FAT reward.

Pirated ships with damaged hulls and modules on sale at 50% off but no insurance available at the shipyards.

Mabe in the future when we can do hostile bordings and steal ships you could sell them at the local pirate base if you are in good with them.

The fun and interesting game play that could be had is amazing!

I have NEVER been pirated... not once! I have traded and smuggled in open 90% of the time and i was always hoping some one migh pirate me. Just once. But no.

If i pirate some one else 90% of the time they just log out or high wake before my hatchbraker completes.. sigh

Its been 3 years and all we have is hatchbrakers now work thugh shields.. yaaaay!

Some interesting ideas here.
I've tried piracy for a bit, only against NPC's, to 'figure it out'. I was only mildly successful.
Could hatch-break a bit of cargo before they bolted, but that was only if they didn't have point defense destroying my limpets. I was never accurate enough to be able to shoot out thrusters or a cargo hold without blowing up the ship first.
So while it was fun to try out, it just wasn't rewarding. and I'm not just referring to simply monetary rewards. There's just not enough gameplay to it.
So for all the "that's what you get for being a pirate!" haters, that are associating pirating with griefing, that's not what this is about.
In it's current form, even piracy against NPC's stinks.

I would certainly try it again if there were more to it.
Fingers crossed that piracy gameplay gets a buff with "Beyond".

 

[bladebss]

@reinbach 111 but thats because piracy is borked. If it was made a viable and engaging activity more people would do it.

And the reason they run is because they think im just going to blow them up (and that was caused buy people having no direction to focus there pvp needs in). and because they can!

How about instead we make the npc pirates hevily engineered and then traders would have to think about defence a bit more and would feel so vunerable and would be used to the idea of having to hand over some cargo if they got interdicted.

Perhaps all the people who wanted crime to pay have left alredy. After 3 years of hopelessness!

And i will say it again! If people don't want pvp what the hell are they doing in open! If your balls arnt big enough get them the hell off the dam table!

 

[Reinbach III]

For PvP piracy, it would have to be something that both sides had opted in to.

Say, for instance, someone accepts an open play only mission where they are required to escort a transport ship. Upon accepting, a piracy mission for the same transport ship could be made available only to players with a poor criminal record.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

While I was downloading Elite, a little over a year ago, I really liked the notion of playing the part of "Space Pirate". Then, while I was waiting, I started reading up on thing Elite, and found that what sounded like it could be a fun way to play was really not all that it could be. Options were rather limited, payouts were terrible, and the ever-increasing bounties and general difficulties just made it seem rather untenable.

Fast forward to now - listening to all the tales, the complaints, and the problems surrounding Piracy, and I think I've actually come up with a solution - or perhaps just an innovative approach that would actually be viable, and not have to resort to random acts of violence. It all starts with the ship build. Now, being me, I'd want something a little... different: https://coriolis.edcd.io/outfit/orc...nRkqcIECAAA=.EweloBhBmcBYQFMCGBzANokICMF9A===

My approach would be to first signal my target, let them know I simply want some of what they have, give a scan of what they have, and give them the chance to pay up. If they refuse, then start hitting them with hatch breakers, while still giving them the option to share the wealth. If they try to run, FSD-disable them, and continue hatch-breaking until I either have what I want, they have nothing else to give, or the local authorities show up. I wouldn't want to actually destroy another ship unless they opened fire on me, and even then, I'd likely opt to destroy their weapons systems before their ship - after all, dead ships pay no cargo.

Of course, there is still a lot to be desired when it comes to Criminal activity as a viable profession - where's the Cargo Laundering operations to make Stolen Cargo appear for all intents and purposes, into legal cargo? Where's the incentive beyond unlocking some Engineers for dealing with Black Markets? Fences are one thing, but where are the black market dealers offering interesting items? Where are the criminal facilities that refuse landing to those without a price on their heads? In short, where is the content? Perhaps somewhere in 3.0.

 

[Gamatech]

I dunno, there's a huge number of people who will steal a $10 item from a shop. They may be successful in their theft, but they still got a reward worth nearly nothing.

I'd rephrase the second sentence as: "To be a successful criminal, target the good pay offs."

And that's the rub for me, in so far as piracy goes in Elite. There is no commodity that I can really see that's worth stealing. Certainly not the joke that is tasty bio-waste. But even stealing 10 or 15 tons of commodities that are worth $3k each... Really? When CMDRs are complaining that missions are only offering the same $30k rewards, this is what I'd choose to do as a pirate? Seems to be on the same level as feeling like a success for stuffing a $10 item down the pants.

Somehow it seems like there should be some kind of BIG prize out here. As in your example, bank robbery. Some actually valuable prizes... IF the CMDR can manage to take them. In a single player game, this is pie to do. Just have NPC ships carrying financial assets data. When successfully heisted, bingo... Enjoy the $3 million credits just hack-deposited into your account balance. But the risks continue past the brutal NPC fight to get it. Randomly from then on, when CMDR with hacked funds in their account spends some money, the transaction is flagged and they become Wanted in-system (or by a minor faction, maybe). Ship lost while wanted for stolen credits? They'll be confiscated from your balance on rebuy... Ouch.

But on a PvP level, this isn't possible. Nothing a CMDR has in cargo will ever be worth that much, that big a juicy target, to make it possible to be really successful at crime.

If $10 is nearly nothing to you, then you're doing okay with life.