ED and Windows MR (Samsung Odyssey @ 1440x1600)

Thanks. I suspect that it may be an issue, but we will see. Thanks for your impressions!

No Worries .. final confirmation .. reconnected my Pimax 4k/BE - launched ED with the same settings as I was using for Samsung, and everything is razor sharp - text is crystal clear and no god-rays - so it's definitely something with the Samsung/Elite combination.

Nail in the coffin I think..
 
So I've gone back to the Pimax and It's absolutely razor sharp with crystal clear text (Let's ignore the God-Rays for now)

I've noticed something with SteamVR - here are my settings for Elite Dangerous

zD4WbDm.jpg


and here are my SteamVR detected

0dbbEQ4.jpg


I'm noting that the 'input' that SteamVR is getting from the Pimax is vastly higher than what I was seeing with the Windows Headset - i'm not sure of the exact figures, but they were actually *lower* than the native resolution of what the headset is supposed to be. (Update - possibly something like 1428x1778@90hz)

Is this the smoking gun? is there an issue with the SteamVR integration or what WindowsMR is feeding into SteamVR - that would explain the generally crapness of the text in Elite.
 
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I finally spent some "quality time" (running missions) with the Samsung Odyssey/Windows MR for SteamVR/SteamVR/ED last night. I had spent some time prior experimenting with various image setting to try and optimize the display quality but did not have a chance to actually run any missions or do any fighting. (BTW - Setting "HMD Quality" to 1.5X still seems to be the only modification required for the best image). Here is what I've also observed.

First the easy part. Like most guys, I like a little head. Unfortunately, I have a big head. A REALLY big head. ...and its horribly misshapen. My head is kind of oblong like an American football. Think "Stewie" on Family guy but rotated 90 degrees. Otherwise, if you could find a hat which fits the creature from "Aliens", I could probably wear it quite comfortably... Seriously, I wear a size 7-3/4 hat if its flexible and a size 8 in a motorsports helmet. So If I tell you the Samsung HMD doesn't fit my head as well as the Rift, it probably won't matter much to folks with a "normal" noggin. That being said, I have to wear the Samsung with the headband fully extended and even then its a little snug on me. This also requires me to have the earphones fully extended downward. I'm hoping as the cushions on the unit break in a bit this all settles in pretty comfortably. In any case, this probably won't matter to 99% of folks.

The OLED image on the Samsung is brighter and much more colorful and crisp then the Rift. So much so that you will notice and shortcomings in the rendering much more quickly. As stated earlier, the "jaggies" are pretty apparent right off the bat. Increasing the HMD Quality to 1.5X seems to solve most (but not all) of this. Increasing it further, or increasing the supersampling does not seem to add any value (but will slow down the rendering substantially). The star field is so much sharper and colorful than with the Rift. You will notice the color differences in the stars right away.

The SDE (Screen Door Effect) is all but gone and you really have to look for it in the right image lighting. You can notice it if you look for it in very neutral, even colored, flat textures or backgrounds. Much better than the Rift though and if you are not looking for it you likely won't notice it.

Resolution is significantly higher and your will find that on screen cockpit text is much easier to read. Ships also resolve better at higher distances.

Tracking is spot on. Nothing more needs to be said here.

God Rays from bright spots in the image are also reduce greatly vs the Rift. However, there is something else going on. There appear to be other "reflections" primarily at the outer edges of the lenses which do not appear to be related to anything on screen. I did detect some of this as ambient light coming in from the back through gaps in the sides of the HMD (oblong head, remember?) but this doesn't explain all of it. I don't think its any light leakage from within the HMD as the OLED panels should be self illuminating. However, these "reflections" don't seem to be related to the image being displayed or the angle of my head, etc. I need to continue testing tonight in a fully darkened room to see if I can nail it down further. These "reflections" don't appear to be "God Rays" but might be similarly distracting for some people.

Graphics performance and quality during flight and engagement did not suffer. I could see opponent ships clearer and make out their details from further away. No loss of video performance was noticed during a brief one-on-one encounter. However, I did not get a chance to fly into a CZ or other highly populated fight zone.

However, frame rates with the Samsung HMD are not as high and buttery smooth as with the Rift. I'm not sure if this difference is due to the relative immaturity of the "Windows MR for SteamVR" component, hard-coded optimizations for lower resolution HMD's in ED, or just a general increase in video processing requirements. My gut feeling is that this will likely become a non-issue as the various software components mature for use with a greater variety of HMD resolutions and requirements. I don't think the relatively small difference in frame rates or smoothness is related to any shortcoming or inability of the underlying hardware. (I'm running a very fast i7, on an X99 MB, with 64GB of RAM, off a Samsung Pro 960 SSD, and a GTX-1080ti). My system is running the native Windows MR stuff, at the higher Samsung resolutions, without breaking a sweat and should be able to handle pretty much anything thrown at it as long as all the software components are working efficiently.

The biggest issue right now with the Samsung is 3rd party software related (I think). There appears to be some sort of a rendering issue which is particularly noticeable when working on-screen menus in ED. I think it has something to do with the mouse being present and active. It is very noticeable and is mainly an issue when your running the mission boards in the station. The image will blink and shift to the point that I've even seen the "Windows MR for SteamVR" environment flicker through in the process. Because of that, I'm thinking it has something to do with that specific software component which is still in Beta/Preview release). I'm going to post this info over on the "Windows MR for SteamVR" developer forums to make sure the developers know about it. It is very noticeable and distracting but it really only appears to be an issue if you are operating in an image which supports Mouse interaction (Station Menus, Galmap, Sysmap). ED has always been pretty funky in the way in which it works withe the mouse in VR, I expect it may just be exacerbating this shortcoming. Of course, the good news is that the "Windows MR for SteamVR" is still in Beta/Preview release so those developers are probably pretty motivated to address anything that needs fixing.

Similarly, I'ld like to see FDEV put down their Holo-Me crayons for a bit and spend some more time examining their VR HMD support code. It used to be that "all" the HMD's out there ran a single common resolution (1280x1024). This is no longer the case. If the VR/HMD code in ED was built to optimize for this old resolution, it really needs to be revisited. Pushing my "HMD Quality" to 1.5X really helped the image quality but I don't think this should be necessary. Most HMDs now run 1440x1440, the Samsung runs 1440x1600, and we also have the Pimax8K coming which upscales from 2Kx2K native images. (Pimax also has a "native" 8K unit coming in April which does 4K per eye without any upscaling). In any case, now would be a very good time for FDEV to sit down and ensure the code base is ready for these enhanced resolutions and not just optimized for a 2 year old standard.

Pros:
Higher Resolution
Brighter Colors
Better Contrast
Perfect Tracking
No external Tracking equipment required
SDE greatly reduced
Reduction of "God Rays" effect
Can wear glasses

Cons:
Image "Disruption" in specific environments (Short-term "Windows MR for SteamVR" maturity issue I think/Hope)
Some sort of Image/Lens reflection artifacts (Still Researching)
Higher Demands on Video Subsystem
Less comfortable if you have a mutant head
 
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So I've gone back to the Pimax and It's absolutely razor sharp with crystal clear text (Let's ignore the God-Rays for now)

I've noticed something with SteamVR - here are my settings for Elite Dangerous

https://i.imgur.com/zD4WbDm.jpg

and here are my SteamVR detected

https://i.imgur.com/0dbbEQ4.jpg

I'm noting that the 'input' that SteamVR is getting from the Pimax is vastly higher than what I was seeing with the Windows Headset - i'm not sure of the exact figures, but they were actually *lower* than the native resolution of what the headset is supposed to be. (Update - possibly something like 1428x1778@90hz)

Is this the smoking gun? is there an issue with the SteamVR integration or what WindowsMR is feeding into SteamVR - that would explain the generally crapness of the text in Elite.

I don't know what your issue with text is but mine is much better than with the rift. Its as I expect it would be with a higher resolution.

I'm also NOT running any "magic" profiler and I haven't made any lasting tweaks to the SteamVR control panel. The ONLY thing I've changed is setting the "HMD Quaility to 1.5x" in ED itself.

The readability of my text is outstanding. However, I prefer NOT to "over-tweak" my system and always take a very methodical approach starting from ground zero. Sometimes "less is more".
 
I don't know what your issue with text is but mine is much better than with the rift. Its as I expect it would be with a higher resolution.

I'm also NOT running any "magic" profiler and I haven't made any lasting tweaks to the SteamVR control panel. The ONLY thing I've changed is setting the "HMD Quaility to 1.5x" in ED itself.

The readability of my text is outstanding. However, I prefer NOT to "over-tweak" my system and always take a very methodical approach starting from ground zero. Sometimes "less is more".

No matter what I set the HMD quality to, the text is simply unreadable. I have no idea where the issue lies. I suspect its got something to do with those numbers that SteamVR is detecting - they're *vastly* higher on the Pimax - this is whatever the driver (Piplay or Windows MR) is feeding steam.

If start Elite on the Samsung and I dial up the super-sample in steam so the numbers match what the Pimax driver is delivering, I still don't get the clarity I am seeing with the Pimax headset - which has a per-eye resolution of 1280x1440.
 
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Take ALL your tweaks (SteamVR and Elite) back down to the defaults and change only ONE thing: HMD Quality to 1.5X and see what happens...

BTW - I also noticed that my resolutions identified in SteamVR were slightly higher than the native Samsung Resolution of 1440x1600 but I didn't change change them. (I forget the specific values)

I think you may have "over-tweaked" your system. It may be time to ground everything and establish a new baseline. Too many spices in the stew....

UPDATE: I just remoted into my home machine and the resolutions I see in SteamVR with the Samsung HMD connected are 1428x1777
 
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No matter what I set the HMD quality to, the text is simply unreadable. I have no idea where the issue lies. I suspect its got something to do with those numbers that SteamVR is detecting - they're *vastly* higher on the Pimax - this is whatever the driver (Piplay or Windows MR) is feeding steam.

If start Elite on the Samsung and I dial up the super-sample in steam so the numbers match what the Pimax driver is delivering, I still don't get the clarity I am seeing with the Pimax headset - which has a per-eye resolution of 1280x1440.

Where did you see that "Windows MR" setting (mentioned in the other thread)? I'ld like to check it for you but I don't remember where I saw it. I don't see it in the SteamVR settings. I don't think it was a setting in ED as "Windows MR" wasn't even a thing yet...

In any case, if its a setting in ED, I don't think I will be able to pull it up remotely (as my ED runs in VR) and will have to wait till I get home tonight to confirm. I can see the SteamVR settings remotely though.

I can assure you, whatever I'm running is absolutely "stock" except for the HMD Quality setting at 1.5x. (Part of my job involves hardware/software performance optimization so I'm very methodical and conservative on how many things I change at one time...)
 
Where did you see that "Windows MR" setting (mentioned in the other thread)? I'ld like to check it for you but I don't remember where I saw it. I don't see it in the SteamVR settings. I don't think it was a setting in ED as "Windows MR" wasn't even a thing yet...

In any case, if its a setting in ED, I don't think I will be able to pull it up remotely (as my ED runs in VR) and will have to wait till I get home tonight to confirm. I can see the SteamVR settings remotely though.

I can assure you, whatever I'm running is absolutely "stock" except for the HMD Quality setting at 1.5x. (Part of my job involves hardware/software performance optimization so I'm very methodical and conservative on how many things I change at one time...)

Set VR to Defaults

Steam SS 1.0 (1426x1780 5.1MP/frame 456 MP/sec@90hz) - close to you i think
Elite Super Sample quality looks like it defaults to 0.65
Set HMD quality from default of 1.75 to 1.50

loaded up elite and the text on the HUD looks absolutely awful

I also work in Tech in QA//interop - so I am pretty used to testing stuff :)
 
Isn't the Elite Supersample default at 1.0? (That's where I'm at right now in any case) My HMD Quality was also at 1.0 (default I expect) before I ultimately changed it to 1.5X.

If you are running similarly then either the original Pimax is very, very, good with text or something is very wrong.

I don't have an original Pimax unit to compare my text quality with (although I have a Pimax8K on order). Do you have a Rift, or have you seen the text in a Rift? That's what I'm comparing my Oddyssey with and the text is noticeably better in the Odyssey...
 
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How does your Samsung look in the native Windows MR environment (or with native Windows MR apps). That would be a good question. If it looks good with native Windows MR, then something is likely messed up with your SteamVR or ED Settings... If it still looks like crap in Windows MR then maybe there is a defect in the HMD...
 
Windows cliff house looks relatively ok .. so maybe its something in Elite or SteamVR - Even the steamVR home text does not look as clear and crisp as it does with the pimax.

Maybe something to do with the new SteamVR Driver for windows MR?

There are only two settings in Elite from what i can tell .. SuperSample and HMD quality - not much to reset those to low

The issue seems to be with text in steam in general - graphics look fine on the headset.
 
Windows cliff house looks relatively ok .. so maybe its something in Elite or SteamVR - Even the steamVR home text does not look as clear and crisp as it does with the pimax.

Maybe something to do with the new SteamVR Driver for windows MR?

There are only two settings in Elite from what i can tell .. SuperSample and HMD quality - not much to reset those to low

The issue seems to be with text in steam in general - graphics look fine on the headset.

There are LOTS of graphics settings in ELITE - I don't know why you would only be seeing two? Check under Options -> Graphics -> Quality
 
There are LOTS of graphics settings in ELITE - I don't know why you would only be seeing two? Check under Options -> Graphics -> Quality

There does not seem to be a “reset to default” option i selected VR low which i would assume would set everything to a particular set of values, this still made no difference to on screen text.

The two settings I mentioned seem to be the only two that effect text rendering
 
I just noticed that you see 1428x1777 in SteamVR and I see 1426x1780. Wouldn’t these be the same given we’re using the same headset.
 
Hardware availability of brand new devices just coming or about to come to the market in limited numbers will need several months at the very least to gain somewhat stable middleware and drivers, not to mention in-game support. Even for Oculus and Vive--despite DK1 and DK2 being on the developer market for years--it took FD quite some time to enable support and even then there were several issues with 2.2 and 2.3 releases. The Vive fared even worse, despite Steam support.

We now have multiple resolutions from different vendors and varying hardware requirements and refresh rates. There is no way FD has any bandwidth or business justification to invest scarce dev resources, so any early adopters of these devices will be on their own in terms of trying to hack something that is usable and stable enough for use and even then there could be one Microsoft patch or ED point release away from getting it screwed up again and again. The marketing materials are big on improved specs, but all that won't mean a thing without solid driver/middleware support and that will take a lot longer to develop once the hardware is out there.

YMMV, but for me the Fall Creators Update was a near-disaster even on the CV1. Oculus offered no help, Microsoft had no clue why my frame rates dropped to the teens with random flashes all over the screen in ED. Other titles had fared better but remember that ED uses a proprietary engine. ED and ST:BC are the only two VR titles I play with the little time I have so I'd rather have something that works instead of spending hours and hours on troubleshooting the underlying mess. Luckily I was able to "hide" the Fall Creators Update for a year so I won't get that cancer reloaded again. Hopefully by that time Microsoft had enough time to debug that crap and the OEM drivers have also caught up to their hardware by that time (roughly by the timeframe the Q4 Beyond update is expected to roll out for ED).

Also, there is a similar sentiment over in the PS4 forums regarding the (lack of) PSVR support despite high expectations of VR on a budget with both the console hardware/software and the VR gear being manufactured by the same vendor.

In the end it's all about expectations but then there is reality. Best of luck to any of you brave enough to test the waters and it's exciting to see this slew of devices coming to the market. AR will be cool but I see it being more of a use case from the mobile devices as opposed to PCs but eventually they will all converge in time and the winners who survive will cash in big.
 
I finally spent some "quality time" (running missions) with the Samsung Odyssey/Windows MR for SteamVR/SteamVR/ED last night. I had spent some time prior experimenting with various image setting to try and optimize the display quality but did not have a chance to actually run any missions or do any fighting. (BTW - Setting "HMD Quality" to 1.5X still seems to be the only modification required for the best image). Here is what I've also observed.

First the easy part. Like most guys, I like a little head. Unfortunately, I have a big head. A REALLY big head. ...and its horribly misshapen. My head is kind of oblong like an American football. Think "Stewie" on Family guy but rotated 90 degrees. Otherwise, if you could find a hat which fits the creature from "Aliens", I could probably wear it quite comfortably... Seriously, I wear a size 7-3/4 hat if its flexible and a size 8 in a motorsports helmet. So If I tell you the Samsung HMD doesn't fit my head as well as the Rift, it probably won't matter much to folks with a "normal" noggin. That being said, I have to wear the Samsung with the headband fully extended and even then its a little snug on me. This also requires me to have the earphones fully extended downward. I'm hoping as the cushions on the unit break in a bit this all settles in pretty comfortably. In any case, this probably won't matter to 99% of folks.

The OLED image on the Samsung is brighter and much more colorful and crisp then the Rift. So much so that you will notice and shortcomings in the rendering much more quickly. As stated earlier, the "jaggies" are pretty apparent right off the bat. Increasing the HMD Quality to 1.5X seems to solve most (but not all) of this. Increasing it further, or increasing the supersampling does not seem to add any value (but will slow down the rendering substantially). The star field is so much sharper and colorful than with the Rift. You will notice the color differences in the stars right away.

The SDE (Screen Door Effect) is all but gone and you really have to look for it in the right image lighting. You can notice it if you look for it in very neutral, even colored, flat textures or backgrounds. Much better than the Rift though and if you are not looking for it you likely won't notice it.

Resolution is significantly higher and your will find that on screen cockpit text is much easier to read. Ships also resolve better at higher distances.

Tracking is spot on. Nothing more needs to be said here.

God Rays from bright spots in the image are also reduce greatly vs the Rift. However, there is something else going on. There appear to be other "reflections" primarily at the outer edges of the lenses which do not appear to be related to anything on screen. I did detect some of this as ambient light coming in from the back through gaps in the sides of the HMD (oblong head, remember?) but this doesn't explain all of it. I don't think its any light leakage from within the HMD as the OLED panels should be self illuminating. However, these "reflections" don't seem to be related to the image being displayed or the angle of my head, etc. I need to continue testing tonight in a fully darkened room to see if I can nail it down further. These "reflections" don't appear to be "God Rays" but might be similarly distracting for some people.

Graphics performance and quality during flight and engagement did not suffer. I could see opponent ships clearer and make out their details from further away. No loss of video performance was noticed during a brief one-on-one encounter. However, I did not get a chance to fly into a CZ or other highly populated fight zone.

However, frame rates with the Samsung HMD are not as high and buttery smooth as with the Rift. I'm not sure if this difference is due to the relative immaturity of the "Windows MR for SteamVR" component, hard-coded optimizations for lower resolution HMD's in ED, or just a general increase in video processing requirements. My gut feeling is that this will likely become a non-issue as the various software components mature for use with a greater variety of HMD resolutions and requirements. I don't think the relatively small difference in frame rates or smoothness is related to any shortcoming or inability of the underlying hardware. (I'm running a very fast i7, on an X99 MB, with 64GB of RAM, off a Samsung Pro 960 SSD, and a GTX-1080ti). My system is running the native Windows MR stuff, at the higher Samsung resolutions, without breaking a sweat and should be able to handle pretty much anything thrown at it as long as all the software components are working efficiently.

The biggest issue right now with the Samsung is 3rd party software related (I think). There appears to be some sort of a rendering issue which is particularly noticeable when working on-screen menus in ED. I think it has something to do with the mouse being present and active. It is very noticeable and is mainly an issue when your running the mission boards in the station. The image will blink and shift to the point that I've even seen the "Windows MR for SteamVR" environment flicker through in the process. Because of that, I'm thinking it has something to do with that specific software component which is still in Beta/Preview release). I'm going to post this info over on the "Windows MR for SteamVR" developer forums to make sure the developers know about it. It is very noticeable and distracting but it really only appears to be an issue if you are operating in an image which supports Mouse interaction (Station Menus, Galmap, Sysmap). ED has always been pretty funky in the way in which it works withe the mouse in VR, I expect it may just be exacerbating this shortcoming. Of course, the good news is that the "Windows MR for SteamVR" is still in Beta/Preview release so those developers are probably pretty motivated to address anything that needs fixing.

Similarly, I'ld like to see FDEV put down their Holo-Me crayons for a bit and spend some more time examining their VR HMD support code. It used to be that "all" the HMD's out there ran a single common resolution (1280x1024). This is no longer the case. If the VR/HMD code in ED was built to optimize for this old resolution, it really needs to be revisited. Pushing my "HMD Quality" to 1.5X really helped the image quality but I don't think this should be necessary. Most HMDs now run 1440x1440, the Samsung runs 1440x1600, and we also have the Pimax8K coming which upscales from 2Kx2K native images. (Pimax also has a "native" 8K unit coming in April which does 4K per eye without any upscaling). In any case, now would be a very good time for FDEV to sit down and ensure the code base is ready for these enhanced resolutions and not just optimized for a 2 year old standard.

Pros:
Higher Resolution
Brighter Colors
Better Contrast
Perfect Tracking
No external Tracking equipment required
SDE greatly reduced
Reduction of "God Rays" effect
Can wear glasses

Cons:
Image "Disruption" in specific environments (Short-term "Windows MR for SteamVR" maturity issue I think/Hope)
Some sort of Image/Lens reflection artifacts (Still Researching)
Higher Demands on Video Subsystem
Less comfortable if you have a mutant head


waahahahaha
 
There is no way FD has any bandwidth or business justification to invest scarce dev resources...

Especially if they spend all their available resources working on useless crap like Holo-Me!

But don't worry... It will all take care of itself.

I don't care. I'm happy with Both my Rift and my Odyssey. I have absolutely no regrets. Despite being 1st generation technology, the Rift was (is) a game changer. I simply would not have been playing Elite without it.

The Odyssey is potentially even better. The "Windows MR for SteamVR" component was even released earlier then promised as a "Preview/Beta". There is a lot of development going on in this area and developers are tripping over themselves to get stuff out. Unlike FDEV, I'm absolutely convinced that the folks at Microsoft/Pimax/Samsung are working overtime to deliver really a really great VR experience as quickly as possible. ...and any traction they can achieve right now during the holiday season is going to be a market multiplier. I'm not worried at all that the glitches in the support software will be resolved very quickly.

The situation will take care of itself one way of the other. Basically, I only play ED right now in VR and if they don't keep up I'll just play something else. Problem solved.
 
I agree. I would expect so...

Supersample is essentially taking those numbers and upscaling them. Wouldn’t a weird number give weird results with text?

I was planning on returning it after work today. I’m certainly going to the Microsoft store to ask them why the IPD won’t dial down to 60. Maybe I’ve got a faulty headset, but what would cause the difference in our resolution numbers.
 
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