Imperial Clipper should be considered a medium size ship not large
- Thread starter NewBlacksmurf
- Start date
I'm beginning to see a pattern to this and it's not pretty.
We seem to be seeing a discontinuity between "take control of a starship in a cutthroat universe" and giving into the entitlements for all players.
The problem is that the economy in this game is pretty unbalanced and all over the place. After reading Stich's and Max Factor's responses involving why there is a limitation on rare inventory moving from outposts I can see how large ships were stopped from being able to run those outposts as dry as the larger stations, there are better ways to control it that -- while truck drivers don't like it -- often do run into this on occasion in certain locations.
They aren't allowed to move product because the Dock Manager simply denies. They can complain all they want, but if the dock manager said no, it's no.
This can be arranged for Outposts simply by either denying the large ship access to that inventory, or setting quotas for moving product. It can be decided however and any complaints to be left to the denizens of the forum to remind them, "welcome to a cutthroat universe."
This would also solve another discontinuity with the Python vs. Clipper when you consider that the Clipper can only haul out 116+ tons vs. Python (which can land at outposts) and haul out 224+ tons.
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Heads up mate, there might be technical issues at fault here 'cus I've seen it a lot the last few days, but you're apparently quoting me.
You would still get compaints about arbitrary limits and it won't change anything. It works perfectly fine as it is, so see no need to change it. But if Fdev do change it, it won't be the end of the world.
But you have got it wrong about the clipper. It can carry 232 tons with a class 4 shield and the Python can carry 276 tons of cargo.
I actually think the python carries a bit too much, or the clipper needs to carry a little extra.
But on the whole its not an issue when the python costs twice the amount.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
The Type-7 is the other large ship that the Python "replaces" when affordable....
I personally think that the T7 needs some more love. FDev need to change one of the class 3s into a class 4 so you can put the smallest shield that it can handle without loosing space. Then it will be able to carry more cargo then the Python without being too over powered. I also think the T9 should be able to carry more.
Then it will be okay. I can live with the Clipper being a large ship, also even with the one less large hard point I prefer it over the Python when it comes to combat. Faster and more manouverable.
But I don't have issues with ships being better then others. If that was the case, then the Cobra shouldn't be better then the sidewinder etc. You replace ships with better versions until you find the one you like the best. For exploration it is my DBX. Is the AspX technically better, sure, but I prefer to fly my DBX, so I fly it.
Things don't need to be perfectly balanced all the time.
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Yeah, that's something that I would accept. But silence on that admission -- a habit developers often take -- doesn't always work in favour of them; particularly if the community has been getting saltier over the course of time.
We'll see how this turns with the changes for next year though.
Thanks for the correction and clarification. I should have explained what I used to set those numbers. I didn't remove the shields (or the class-type), I kept the scanner... All other optional module areas I filled with cargo slots. However, based on your correction it still comes up to more. And that's still a hook in the craws of players looking at the Clipper and saying, "why" in this thread.
And what I can accept is only going to incense the community responding to this more and that is:
The Empire doesn't have a medium ship (and people are looking to the clipper like it should be)
While I can understand the ostentatiousness of the Imperial line of ships, people will continue to complain that the Clipper should be considered one given that it is comparable to the Python (at least in cargo space). Because the fact of the matter is -- people will continue to complain. We might make peace with some -- others will take their place.
So Max Factor -- how would you prefer to remedy this?
Nah bud, you misunderstand. You quoted someone earlier complaining about the iClipper not being able to dock at outposts, but it's got my name on the quote instead.
Rental income? That's what I did.
I also think here should be an Empire medium sized vessel. The more ships the merrier in my eyes. Give the clipper a bit more cargo as you can't take away from the python. Make the cargo space similar to the python but keep it large sized. It has enough benefits to make it okay as large.
Then add an empire medium sized ship which is SLF capable. Kind of comparable to the Federal Gunship but with better shields and thrusters, but less cargo space and worse hull and the typical empire design.
At the moment the only empire ship that can use a SLF is the cutter which seems wrong to me.
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Excellent graphic...gives a new appreciation for my Beluga. No Dolphin though?
Though, I still wonder why a Type-7 is large...it looks so tiny on the large pad. I assume it is due to length...but maybe also height? Either way, really bugs me I have to tow around a Type-6 for those lucrative missions to outposts.
Since people apparently love to play the realism card, consider this:
Realistically, there are things that make way less sense than the Clipper, or the Type-7, or any other ship in the game. There are SUVs; they're neither good at "sport", nor at "utility", most are borderline "vehicle", and oh my dog have you ever tried them in close quarters parking. The Gutamaya ships may be a bit of that, but by and large they have at least some use other than being stupid ugly products aimed at stupid ugly people of which there seem to be quite enough. The Clipper is a large ship because someone thought it'd be cool to slap nacelles on a way oversize Courier. Deal with it.
Realistically, there are things that make way less sense than the Clipper, or the Type-7, or any other ship in the game. There are SUVs; they're neither good at "sport", nor at "utility", most are borderline "vehicle", and oh my dog have you ever tried them in close quarters parking. The Gutamaya ships may be a bit of that, but by and large they have at least some use other than being stupid ugly products aimed at stupid ugly people of which there seem to be quite enough. The Clipper is a large ship because someone thought it'd be cool to slap nacelles on a way oversize Courier. Deal with it.
It's due to height. Some idiot in Lakon planning decided to make it a foot too tall for it to fit in the medium hangers. To me, that is by far the worst designed ship in ED.
Thank you, but I can't be attributed to it. Someone else used it on the last thread about why the Clipper isn't a Medium Ship. This picture was put together before the introduction of the Dolphin. Although the Dolphin's Dimensions are: 51.8L - 20.8W - 8.8H m qualifying it for a small pad (based on numbers).
I thought the same that it might have been the length for the Type-7, but it's clearly shorter than the Python and that lands on a Medium Pad.. And it's certainly not the width, as the ASPS is actually wider and also lands on a medium pad... So, yeah. Looks to be height. The cut-off appears to be 25 meters for height.
And here an excellent evaluation of changes we should actually see.
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I could live with that. The problem is most people will be against assigning development resources toward an entirely new ship, electing instead to "fix the existing problems within the game".
My suggestion was to edit an existing ship rather than introducing a completely new one. I think in essence, we're all really in agreement here- but the problem is more complex as there are existing "agendas" people are wanting to advance before assigning resources to new content.
Really? And how much resources are you thinking would be to used for an existing ship within the game for a medium build? You think there were new people and a new asset resources created when the Imperial Eagle was created?
vs.
Either you're not realizing that a make-over takes less work for an existing asset or you're not as flexible as you're trying to convey in your message and expecting the Clipper be made smaller.
I also suggested that Outposts could be made to accommodate larger vessels. Editing an existing resource vs creating a completely new one is ALWAYS easier to do.
But if it suits your fancy to consider me "inflexible", instead go for it.
You weren't the only one, as I clearly recall. But there's a problem with that if you were reading Stitch's and Max Factor's responses involving draining the rare resources of outposts by larger ships being able to dock on them. This goes back to an over-arching issues that we often see within the game and that involves the sandbox's economy and the way we also have disproportional methods of solution in this game which several people have referred to as "Gold Fountains".
Tell me, which do you think will be a faster solution:
1. Adding larger pads on all outposts through copy pasting?
2. Shrinking the Clipper to a medium size?
3. Imperialize the Python with a makeover as they did with the Eagle?
More importantly, where do you think it would end up in the current production queue? Especially when the majority of you people have demanded #3 only to see it ignored time, and time, and time, and time again? I've been around a year.. I've been in the forums officially more than 1/2 of that. From the 1/2 year I've been here I see your request no closer to production
Stitch (2016) and Max Factor (2014) can most probably tell you how often this has come up... If Max Factor says he's seen it since 2014, I'm more than reasonably sure: it... won't... happen.... ever.
Forgive me, I'm a bit confused now...
Is the problem that the Clipper, for its capabilities, should not be classified as a Large ship? (thread title, I know)
Or is the real problem that the Empire doesn't have a suitable Medium ship?
Because if it's the original post, the actual 'problem' then is that the fittings and statistics of Clipper are out of alignment with its size. You can't make the ship smaller without radically altering its art assets...which is why FPS titles don't transform rifles into pistols, they just alter the stats. The question, then, is how should the Clipper be modified to where - as a large ship - it has a niche or utility.
Federal has only ONE large ship, and it is very specific to its utility. I dream of getting a corvette and exploring in it - because let's be honest, like most large ships it looks highly capable of deep-space missions. But it isn't built or designed that way. All three of the medium ships are mild variations of the same frame, with only one of them having any real utility beyond combat (the FDS).
If it's the latter problem, I hate to break this to you...but Federal doesn't have a small ship. You don't hear folks getting up in arms over that. I commend FD for not making the Empire and Federation line of ships identical in all but appearance. That would be very boring. Parity is only a good feature in balancing PvP...that's about it. And none of the ships discussed are considered the top-game for PvP, so it's kinda moot.
The other thing to remember is that while the many ships of Elite have their niche roles, when it comes to 'best at X' - large ships largely dominate those various tasks. The DBE best excels at silent running is one of the few exceptions to this rule...but for the vast majority of tasks in Elite, a large ship is generally the best at it. The cost of being the best is, literally, the cost in credits.
Is the problem that the Clipper, for its capabilities, should not be classified as a Large ship? (thread title, I know)
Or is the real problem that the Empire doesn't have a suitable Medium ship?
Because if it's the original post, the actual 'problem' then is that the fittings and statistics of Clipper are out of alignment with its size. You can't make the ship smaller without radically altering its art assets...which is why FPS titles don't transform rifles into pistols, they just alter the stats. The question, then, is how should the Clipper be modified to where - as a large ship - it has a niche or utility.
Federal has only ONE large ship, and it is very specific to its utility. I dream of getting a corvette and exploring in it - because let's be honest, like most large ships it looks highly capable of deep-space missions. But it isn't built or designed that way. All three of the medium ships are mild variations of the same frame, with only one of them having any real utility beyond combat (the FDS).
If it's the latter problem, I hate to break this to you...but Federal doesn't have a small ship. You don't hear folks getting up in arms over that. I commend FD for not making the Empire and Federation line of ships identical in all but appearance. That would be very boring. Parity is only a good feature in balancing PvP...that's about it. And none of the ships discussed are considered the top-game for PvP, so it's kinda moot.
The other thing to remember is that while the many ships of Elite have their niche roles, when it comes to 'best at X' - large ships largely dominate those various tasks. The DBE best excels at silent running is one of the few exceptions to this rule...but for the vast majority of tasks in Elite, a large ship is generally the best at it. The cost of being the best is, literally, the cost in credits.