Shield Booster should generate a LOT more heat!!!

[MBaldelli]

Diminishing returns are bad for the game in the end. why? Because nobody really understands what the hell is going on. just look at the mess resist are right now, nobody ever know exactly how much your ship will have until you actually fit everything.

No, it's initially difficult to figure out for the average user. That's why the third party programmers come into play to assist the average player in how to figure this out. There's several third party programmers and tools for STO that cover how diminishing return works out for those lacking the understanding or time to figure it out for themselves.

On the conter hand. Heat is the optimal way to punish big shields. Why? Couple of reasons.

Only if this is being determined for larger ships than smaller. As it stands what's been suggested is player sadism for the smaller players that don't have stacks of Shield Booster on their ship. And that's something I will neither approve of nor endorse.

 

[Ka_Tor]

Big ships are already vulnerable from being out maneuvered by medium and small ships. Adept pilots have no issues engaging with them, and taking them down via equipping the right weapons and performing the right strategic strikes, e.g. targeting and picking apart subsystems. Handicapping the cmdrs ability to enhance large ships shields any further, than the fdevs already have, would be approaching rendering the large ships useless in any pvp combat engagements. IMO

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

No, it's initially difficult to figure out for the average user. That's why the third party programmers come into play to assist the average player in how to figure this out. There's several third party programmers and tools for STO that cover how diminishing return works out for those lacking the understanding or time to figure it out for themselves.

Coriolis DOES NOT do resist right BTW so you just proved my point

Only if this is being determined for larger ships than smaller. As it stands what's been suggested is player sadism for the smaller players that don't have stacks of Shield Booster on their ship. And that's something I will neither approve of nor endorse.

what? "player sadism for the smaller players" What the hell should this means?!

BTW flak 2.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

...
I run 6 SBs on my 'Vette and, combined, they increase my effective shielding by <20%. That's hardly out of control.
....

i wouldn't post in such a topic,
if not for this strange comment

what kind of shield booster do you fit there?
even E grade SB give you 4% extra shield. and to my knowledge 6*4 = 24%
since noone would fit E grade ones here, but actually A Grade ones,
we end up with up to 120% more effective hitpoints PRE modding.

and those, not understanding the diminishing returns on resists,
maybe need a visual on WHY they are there

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Big ships are already vulnerable from being out maneuvered by medium and small ships. Adept pilots have no issues engaging with them, and taking them down via equipping the right weapons and performing the right strategic strikes, e.g. targeting and picking apart subsystems. Handicapping the cmdrs ability to enhance large ships shields any further, than the fdevs already have, would be approaching rendering the large ships useless in any pvp combat engagements. IMO

Yep a Small ship with 50 DPS max will be able to take down a Cutter with 4K Mj shields in what? half an hour of fire? Ha ha... You are just trying to "enhance" your god mode that is.

" e.g. targeting and picking apart subsystems."

Yeah because you can target subsystem trough shields ¬¬' great...

Flak 3 : "Handicapping the cmdrs ability to enhance large ships shields any further,"

Another God mode CMDR...

i wouldn't post in such a topic,
if not for this strange comment

what kind of shield booster do you fit there?
even E grade SB give you 4% extra shield. and to my knowledge 6*4 = 24%
since noone would fit E grade ones here, but actually A Grade ones,
we end up with up to 120% more effective hitpoints PRE modding.

and those, not understanding the diminishing returns on resists,
maybe need a visual on WHY they are there

Probl missed one 0 of 200%

 

[Ka_Tor]

Yep a Small ship with 50 DPS max will be able to take down a Cutter with 4K Mj shields in what? half an hour of fire? Ha ha... You are just trying to "enhance" your god mode that is.

" e.g. targeting and picking apart subsystems."

Yeah because you can target subsystem trough shields ¬¬' great...

Flak 3 : "Handicapping the cmdrs ability to enhance large ships shields any further,"

Another God mode CMDR...

Meh. If you dont like 30 minute battles then dont engage in combat with players in Large ships. I place my bet on a decent pilot in a FDL against any of the big 3 anyday. You are obviosly not one of them since you are on here throwing a hissy fit.
I dont own a 'god ship' build btw.

 

[Whatnow]

Since sbs are in utility slots on the outside of your ship dont they just vent any heat they generate straight into space? Seems like they should double as heat sinks if anything lol
/devils advocate

 

[krylite]

OP, do you have one of the "big 3"? If I'm not mistaken, scb stacking already got a nerf. It used to be almost double what it is now. So a ship with 4k MJ stacked used to be closer to 8k. In general the scb's are more passive stable load devices imo, so generate far less heat and current change than the shield banks. The ships in ED are already balanced fairly well, high & haz rez sites are often filled with pirates of varying combat ranks so many could be seen as flimsy compared to a buffed ship. CZ's on the other hand have ships usually close to the player's combat rank. So it's easier to lose shields quick when surrounded by dangerous to elite level opponents. Seems already balanced in that respect to me. Maybe you just need to spend more time in a big three ship to see it's all good already.

 

[AbsinthSvK]

In what planet are you from? if not shields only got buffed in the last patches... increased regen. AND instashield at reboot was the last ones...

You probably haven't OP shield before nerf, im from Earth and you probably dont know what you talking about.

No, to your "heat" suggestion because big ships will suffer most. When you cant take down shields you probably havent good equipment for that. Its really easy to bypass shield and doing dmg to hull with Phasing Sequence effect. Also very useful effect: Feedback Cascade.

As i see you are flustered player and you need shotgun to destroy any kind of ship in game in seconds. I hope that never happens.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

....As i see you are flustered player and you need shotgun to destroy any kind of ship in game in seconds. I hope that never happens.

lol, obviously, using the giant "shotguns" eventually works best to get rid of lots of shieldpoints in seconds.

 

[Frenotx]

While I completely agree that shields are a big problem right now, I don't think heat is the issue. All that will do is put further emphasis on efficient low-heat weapons (I.e. multicannons) combined with mega-shields as the defacto apex build. The ridiculous importance of keeping 4 pips in sys already puts way too much focus on capacitor-light weapons as it is.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

You probably haven't OP shield before nerf, im from Earth and you probably dont know what you talking about.

No, to your "heat" suggestion because big ships will suffer most. When you cant take down shields you probably havent good equipment for that. Its really easy to bypass shield and doing dmg to hull with Phasing Sequence effect. Also very useful effect: Feedback Cascade.

As i see you are flustered player and you need shotgun to destroy any kind of ship in game in seconds. I hope that never happens.

All personal attacks... not a single point.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

OP, do you have one of the "big 3"? If I'm not mistaken, scb stacking already got a nerf. It used to be almost double what it is now. So a ship with 4k MJ stacked used to be closer to 8k. In general the scb's are more passive stable load devices imo, so generate far less heat and current change than the shield banks. The ships in ED are already balanced fairly well, high & haz rez sites are often filled with pirates of varying combat ranks so many could be seen as flimsy compared to a buffed ship. CZ's on the other hand have ships usually close to the player's combat rank. So it's easier to lose shields quick when surrounded by dangerous to elite level opponents. Seems already balanced in that respect to me. Maybe you just need to spend more time in a big three ship to see it's all good already.

There was NO change in SCB... since 2.1.

Shield stack changes were only in beta. and haven't seen the light of day in live build.

Ships in ED are hardly balanced.

I can kill most pirates in Haz res with a python and no sweat.

CZ is just awareness, of course if you are in an area with lots of red and few greens you will suffer... but even so... a big ship can outtank about to 8 elite ships(npc) at a time with little to none consequences.

So if you please prove to me that there was a SCB change and a Shield booster change please links.
Otherwise this is just flak...

lol, obviously, using the giant "shotguns" eventually works best to get rid of lots of shieldpoints in seconds.

It's funny since Frag cannons are the way to go to remove shields. since the shield boost stack are so OP that they can tank another big 3 ship spilling about to 1000 DPS weapons at point blank and still have no danger at all... so if not he only proven my point.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

While I completely agree that shields are a big problem right now, I don't think heat is the issue. All that will do is put further emphasis on efficient low-heat weapons (I.e. multicannons) combined with mega-shields as the defacto apex build. The ridiculous importance of keeping 4 pips in sys already puts way too much focus on capacitor-light weapons as it is.

The new meta is hardly MCs. The new meta are a mix between plasma and rails.


BUT you have a point... it will bring MCs back in those kind of ships.... but even so... they still will have problem since they will not be able to use OC MCs... So it's not that much of a big deal.

Since sbs are in utility slots on the outside of your ship dont they just vent any heat they generate straight into space? Seems like they should double as heat sinks if anything lol
/devils advocate

That would be the same for plasmas? rails? Torpedoes? I can see a patern here

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Meh. If you dont like 30 minute battles then dont engage in combat with players in Large ships. I place my bet on a decent pilot in a FDL against any of the big 3 anyday. You are obviosly not one of them since you are on here throwing a hissy fit.
I dont own a 'god ship' build btw.

That's the old rule of If you dont like it dont use it... Please grow up. We all know how flawed this kind of "idea" is... If this was the case we would still have:

- Heat missiles with uncaped heat levels
- Rail boats since rails at one point had very little heat
- "Real" SR... since today you can "lock" on a ship even if it is SR, you just need to be shot by it....
- Old G5 overcharged with Incendiary doing 100% thermal DMG...
- Missiles ignoring shields.
- Torpedoes not being shot by stations.
- Heat cannons ( this one i dont know if still working BTW)


All of those fall into the "if you don't like don't use it" argument. The only difference is that you probably was on the receiving end of the problem...

Guess you have a VERY diferent point over those features of the game ,right?!


God players are fun to deal with...

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

somehow i don't understand these topics.

first, i see one where someone crys about how useless the big ships are, because they can be pwned by smaller, cheaper ones.
then,
like this one here, the total oppositte request -> nerf big ships, because they can not be pwned by smaller, cheaper ones?

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

somehow i don't understand these topics.

first, i see one where someone crys about how useless the big ships are, because they can be pwned by smaller, cheaper ones.
then,
like this one here, the total oppositte request -> nerf big ships, because they can not be pwned by smaller, cheaper ones?

anyone effectively saying that a big ship cannot kill a small ship is insane. it's a matter of DPS and shield stacking. Small ships cannot cut trough this much Shield stacking.And this much of stacking is also killing the game combat to tedious grind... just stop a day and look for ANY PvE streamer. they will rover around a Haz res for like an hour or so in a big corvette or Cutter..... kill thousands of NPCs and never even lose their shields... The stacking is eating too much of the challenge of the game... that at this point is 0.

BTW I'm not saying that big ships should be easilly killed by smaller ones... Buut at this point a small ship would need about to 30 mins to take down a 3k MJ shield. on the best case scenario.


BTW² just look at the ships on the signatures... and you'll se a partern on those defending shield stacking... Cutter Cutter Cutter...

 

[Ka_Tor]

That's the old rule of If you dont like it dont use it... Please grow up. We all know how flawed this kind of "idea" is... If this was the case we would still have:

- Heat missiles with uncaped heat levels
- Rail boats since rails at one point had very little heat
- "Real" SR... since today you can "lock" on a ship even if it is SR, you just need to be shot by it....
- Old G5 overcharged with Incendiary doing 100% thermal DMG...
- Missiles ignoring shields.
- Torpedoes not being shot by stations.
- Heat cannons ( this one i dont know if still working BTW)


All of those fall into the "if you don't like don't use it" argument. The only difference is that you probably was on the receiving end of the problem...

Guess you have a VERY diferent point over those features of the game ,right?!


God players are fun to deal with...

Grow up? You are upset that you can not take down a large ship with stacked shield boosters in less than 30 minutes. How about you Stop sobbing and stop demanding ANOTHER nerf, of which you foolishly believe wasn't implemented, and take the time to adjust your strategy. Or simply stay away from actions that upset you so much. You will live longer.

Whiny nonsensical players are a waste to deal with

 

[Nero Tacitus]

i wouldn't post in such a topic,
if not for this strange comment

what kind of shield booster do you fit there?
even E grade SB give you 4% extra shield. and to my knowledge 6*4 = 24%
since noone would fit E grade ones here, but actually A Grade ones,
we end up with up to 120% more effective hitpoints PRE modding.

Effective shielding is the total amount of damage needed to bring down shielding. My 'Vette's base shields (7C Biweave) are 630MJ, plus 2x7A SCBs (each totalling 3,250MJ). and a 5A in reserve (1,00MJ). 630 + 3,250 + 3,250 + 1,000 = 8,130MJ.
G5 A grade HD SBs give ~55% to base shields, I run 4 HDs and 2 Res, so ((55x4)+(20x2)=260%)x630) = 2,268MJ (1,638 increase). 1,638/8,130 = 20.14%. So not quite <20%, but acceptably close considering it was off the top of my head.

Diminishing returns are bad for the game in the end. why? Because nobody really understands what the hell is going on. just look at the mess resist are right now, nobody ever know exactly how much your ship will have until you actually fit everything.

As pointed out, there are numerous tools for calculating exactly how a ship will turn out once engineered. If you choose not to use them, that's on you. You're acting like your experience is the only one gamers ever have; I use the tools and do the math so I know exactly what's going on. This entire point translates as "I can't understand it, so it should be changed".

-More heat means that gigantic SCB will be very very hot... making it a maybe 2 sinks.

Honestly, have you ever flown any of the big 3? Grade 7, let alone grade 8, SCBs are already 2 heatsinks in a firefight, unless you're running low emissions (GL).

All personal attacks... not a single point.

Said the guy who responded to reasonable criticism with reductive dismission.

anyone effectively saying that a big ship cannot kill a small ship is insane. it's a matter of DPS and shield stacking. Small ships cannot cut trough this much Shield stacking.And this much of stacking is also killing the game combat to tedious grind... just stop a day and look for ANY PvE streamer. they will rover around a Haz res for like an hour or so in a big corvette or Cutter..... kill thousands of NPCs and never even lose their shields... The stacking is eating too much of the challenge of the game... that at this point is 0.

BTW I'm not saying that big ships should be easilly killed by smaller ones... Buut at this point a small ship would need about to 30 mins to take down a 3k MJ shield. on the best case scenario.


BTW² just look at the ships on the signatures... and you'll se a partern on those defending shield stacking... Cutter Cutter Cutter...

Your posts are indicating more and more that you simply don't understand the combat mechanics in ED. DPS is irrelevant when you have nothing to shoot at, look at the meta and you'll see that none of the big 3 are in high regard because DPS < maneuverability.
Challenge is what you make of it, you're seeking out a small portion of the population that enjoy the game at a calm pace and then complaining because it bores you. You want a challenge? Go fly small ships and enjoy how challenging the game is dealing with the extremely prevalent and widly OP big 3. Maybe try Googling sidewinder PvP before complaining that big ships are ruining the game.

I also don't fly a Cutter, cheers on reading my post in full.

 

[baqar79]

While I completely agree that shields are a big problem right now, I don't think heat is the issue. All that will do is put further emphasis on efficient low-heat weapons (I.e. multicannons) combined with mega-shields as the defacto apex build. The ridiculous importance of keeping 4 pips in sys already puts way too much focus on capacitor-light weapons as it is.

Your earlier research on heat mechanics can also show that the heat generation from OA shield boosters is already non trivial (awesome work BTW! [yesnod]).

Someone posted earlier about overheating problems on their FDL, so lets look at their build (link located in post):
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/388806-FDL-heat-management-help-needed

First, the basal heat generation; this is simply the power consumption of the ship multiplied by the efficiency of the power plant (+any other heat sources):

25.04MW * (0.4*1.096) = 11 BTU/sec (~+2 BTU/sec when using the thrusters, due to the heat added on top of this figure)

The shield boosters alone contribute 3.35 BTU/sec (adding the power consumptions of all 6 of their shield boosters together, and multiplying them by the power plant efficiency).

To give you an idea of the significance of this, clean drives contribute ~0.6 BTU/sec at best while dirty drives contribute 2.6 BTU/sec at worst (100% to heat efficiency). So already we have the shield boosters contributing more heat than switching to clean drives will ever save.

The FDL also has a much lower thermal capacity than the big 3, so if we did say, add 1.0/heat sec for each shield booster, ships with smaller heat capacities like the FDL will suffer more from those changes.

(Sorry in advance if the numbers don't quite add up right!).