General / Off-Topic What did we think of Doctor Who (spoilers allowed)

[Alodia]

Look, there's nothing wrong with strong women characters, but the decision to make the Doctor regenerate into a woman this time wasn't done to serve the story, unlike they did with Missy where we had almost a whole series wondering just who this woman was before the reveal moment and the collective "OH ..." from all of us. No, the decision to have the doctor be female was done solely because people kept asking "Why can't the Doctor be female?" and someone at the BBC decided to make the Doctor be female because it then ticked a politically correct box.

the *creator of the show* almost forced michael grade to turn the lead into a woman in the 80s. they went with sylvester mccoy instead and the show was canned shortly after, so maybe they should have listened to him.

numerous actors from troughton onward and various showrunners had zero issue with it, or said it would be a good thing, and JNT floated it throughout his tenure, including mentioning that he'd spoken to various women actors to drum up press for the show during various recastings.

that's almost forty years of it being asked for and suggested but please keep trying to reframe this as some sort of super recent thing with a tickbox attached to it. the showrunner always gets final say, and chibnall went with whittaker. if you want to insist that your version of events is correct over the actual people involved in the show from producers to series creator, then fire away with the elusive "some mysterious backroom diversity figure did it".

There has not been a single story reason for the Doctor to be female, not one.

except, you know, the last six years of the show weaving the possibility for it into the canon should a showrunner down the line ever decide to roll with it. you've had the corsair, river song turning black and back again (looking forward to the rage festival should we ever get a black doctor), the head of security changing sex onscreen, an entire series arc involving missy and numerous other references to it. even outside of that, it's long since cropped up in the novels while the show was off the air, along with a bunch of big finish audios. this really isn't any sort of big deal at all but some people seem to have had actual meltdowns over it. no matter how much you choose to not accept it, it's all right there in filmed episodes of the show and no longer relegated to "but big finish audios aren't even canon and nobody cares about the new adventures line".

EDIT: I don't see them making the central characters in Call The Midwife male just to tick that politically correctness box ... strange eh?

probably because it's a period drama about midwives in the 1950s with no in-story reason why someone would randomly explode and change sex, unlike the program you're currently talking about which stars a time travelling, shape shifting alien.

 

[Alien]

except, you know, the last six years of the show weaving the possibility for it into the canon should a showrunner down the line ever decide to roll with it. you've had the corsair, river song turning black and back again (looking forward to the rage festival should we ever get a black doctor), the head of security changing sex onscreen, an entire series arc involving missy and numerous other references to it. even outside of that, it's long since cropped up in the novels while the show was off the air, along with a bunch of big finish audios. this really isn't any sort of big deal at all but some people seem to have had actual meltdowns over it. no matter how much you choose to not accept it, it's all right there in filmed episodes of the show and no longer relegated to "but big finish audios aren't even canon and nobody cares about the new adventures line".

Doctor Who has also referenced the Doctor being ginger or saving America, yet those things don't happen. Just because the show has at times referenced the Doctor being female, is not the same thing as there being a story reason for it happening. The Doctor also plays guitar now, and it was used in the story for an episode. The Doctor drove a car, had a Granddaughter and was even Peter Cushing at one point, yet none of those things get mentioned.

There was a social media frenzy these last couple of years during Peter Capaldi's run for the Doctor to be female, all to fulfil a politically correct agenda, so yeah, I do take issue with the "why" of it and you have yet to say anything to effectively explain it.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Just because the show has at times referenced the Doctor being female, is not the same thing as there being a story reason for it happening.

Except you've ​literally just stated the story reason for it happening!

Time Lords can change sex when they regenerate. Whether or not they can choose to is unclear, but the fact that the Doctor has now going through one entire regeneration cycle without ever having been female could almost be considered odd.

Let's give Jodie a fair chance before we pan her, eh?

 

[Alodia]

Doctor Who has also referenced the Doctor being ginger or saving America, yet those things don't happen. Just because the show has at times referenced the Doctor being female, is not the same thing as there being a story reason for it happening. The Doctor also plays guitar now, and it was used in the story for an episode. The Doctor drove a car, had a Granddaughter and was even Peter Cushing at one point, yet none of those things get mentioned.

There was a social media frenzy these last couple of years during Peter Capaldi's run for the Doctor to be female, all to fulfil a politically correct agenda, so yeah, I do take issue with the "why" of it and you have yet to say anything to effectively explain it.

Yet to say anything, except an entire post describing it being suggested for close to 40 years by anyone important connected to the show, and a rundown of everything in canon since 2011.

People have been vocal about it since capaldi took over because of the previously mentioned canon additions *making it a viable in universe suggestion*.

Outside of that, it was brought back as a suggestion by fans the moment it turned out 9 was departing, and again for tennant, and again for smith. a carefully crafted plot point that's been added to for six odd years is not the same as the still not ginger running joke or him owning a guitar, sorry.

Oh and by the way:

* capaldi had a guitar for the six string samurai reference in hell bent.
* the doctor has saved america and multiple portions of history thereof in everything from the gunslingers right up to day of the moon
* Bessie was in name of the doctor
* capaldi had a photograph of susan on his desk at the university.
* Cushing is a non canon doctor, along with Richard e Grant and many others, and finding them and Rowan Atkinson randomly being mentioned in the tv series would be a bit weird to say the least.

What any of this has to do with the doctor now being a woman, I've no idea, but please don't claim no reasons have been given when there's a whole post right above giving canon and production team reasons dating back close to 40 years.

 

[Shanaeri]

I'm happy to give it a go. But it looks like my fears of it being a gimmick or an attempt to boost ratings/pacify people have been confirmed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40624288

"Chibnall said the 13th Doctor was always going to be a woman.

He said: "I always knew I wanted the 13th Doctor to be a woman and we're thrilled to have secured our number one choice.

"Her audition for the Doctor simply blew us all away. Jodie is an in-demand, funny, inspiring, super-smart force of nature and will bring loads of wit, strength and warmth to the role. The 13th Doctor is on her way."

and also from the same article
"It was always unlikely that the Doctor would continue to be white and male, especially as the BBC has committed itself to greater diversity on its programmes."

If it was purely down to merit(and I am sure she's a great actress), but on principle then surely they shouldn't have excluded anyone from the auditions and simply gone for the best. this reads like "If you're not an actress we don't want you"

As I said, happy to give it a go. but can't help but shake the feeling that a desire to keep certain groups of people quiet or boost ratings was a big factor, rather than story reasons.

As for the actual episode. I felt it a bit meh and mawkish and far too up itself. Not a fan of making the 1str doctor a misogynist either

 

[Alodia]

I'm happy to give it a go. But it looks like my fears of it being a gimmick or an attempt to boost ratings/pacify people have been confirmed.

"It was always unlikely that the Doctor would continue to be white and male, especially as the BBC has committed itself to greater diversity on its programmes." [/I]

If it was purely down to merit(and I am sure she's a great actress), but on principle then surely they shouldn't have excluded anyone from the auditions and simply gone for the best. this reads like "If you're not an actress we don't want you"

i would point out that the person saying this is someone called Lizo Mzimba, a BBC news entertainment correspondent who says this under an "analysis" header and has absolutely nothing to do with the show itself, much less have any say in casting of any kind. that isn't anything chibnall came out with.

 

[Shanaeri]

i would point out that the person saying this is someone called Lizo Mzimba, a BBC news entertainment correspondent who says this under an "analysis" header and has absolutely nothing to do with the show itself, much less have any say in casting of any kind. that isn't anything chibnall came out with.

Agreed, yet she is speaking on behalf of the BBC and putting that what chibnall says together fills in the gaps. Hence leaving me with the feeling rather than the fact. It's a deduction based on what BBC employees have said and assuming that she would not have commented on anything she did not validate first, esp since they work for the same company.

 

[Alodia]

Agreed, yet she is speaking on behalf of the BBC and putting that what chibnall says together fills in the gaps. Hence leaving me with the feeling rather than the fact. It's a deduction based on what BBC employee have said.

Lizo is a dude but outside of that, BBC entertainment correspondents say all kinds of things, including criticising programs on air. they don't speak on behalf of the showrunner at all, in the exact same way the very article you link also has plenty of mentions from people who thought a woman doctor is a terrible idea. having worked in and around television throughout my life including parts of the bbc, i can categorically state that some rando talking head employee with an opinion on a bbc product is not a BBC (capitals) stance on something no more than the other talking heads saying his opinion is wrong.

i would also mention that a huge part of doctor who funding comes from the commercial entity worldwide and their stance again is often at odds with regular bbc, and the only statements you should take as definitive opinion on something where doctor who is concerned is from the showrunner (and to a lesser degree, the producers during the RTD era). anything else is just an opinion, including my own.

 

[Shanaeri]

as I said, more than happy to give it a go and they are never ever going to say "We did it for diversity reasons" so we'll never know the truth. It just leaves a sneaky suspicion that's all. Had they said "we auditioned actors and actresses alike and Jodie was the best of the lot" I'd be fine.

But they didn't hence leaving me with an uneasy feeling.

 

[Alien]

as I said, more than happy to give it a go and they are never ever going to say "We did it for diversity reasons" so we'll never know the truth. It just leaves a sneaky suspicion that's all. Had they said "we auditioned actors and actresses alike and Jodie was the best of the lot" I'd be fine.

But they didn't hence leaving me with an uneasy feeling.

I've given up trying to explain why the Doctor is now female. Some people don't see the wood for the trees. But hey, their PC boxes are ticked.

 

[Ethaidan]

Oh give it a rest. Better yet, shove your PC tickbox rational up your tightly wound tickbox. Here's a something to think about. While historically the sci-fi, fantasy and superhero genres have predominantly appealed to and been marketted towards men/boys, that has been changing (exponentially) over the past decade (at least). Given that 51% of the potential TV & film audience are women/girls, why wouldn't any franchise embrace the growing potential to reach out and try to increase their audience share?

Given the (not so) recent changes we've seen with female characters moving away from 'damsel-props' the BBC is actually lagging behind this outrageous trend we've had to endure where women are portrayed as just as capable as men... Oh the horror! Personally I blame Ripley, Janeway, Buffy, Six, Starbuck, Gwen Cooper, Zoe Washburne (and Greystone), River Tam (and Song), Martha Jones, Two, Dutch, Diana, Jessica Jones, Kara... Oh and let's not forget Rey and Jyn. Any of them not kickass enough to be the lead character in what used to be a little boys club?

How about you give everyone else a good reason why the doctor shouldn't be a women, how only a man could possible drive forward the longest most complex everchanging organic storyline in sci-fi history. Go on, a Good reason.

 

[Alodia]

I've given up trying to explain why the Doctor is now female. Some people don't see the wood for the trees. But hey, their PC boxes are ticked.

presenting: 2 posts describing exactly why the character is now a woman, one of which goes back some 40 odd years into the show's past.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ers-allowed)?p=6246927&viewfull=1#post6246927
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ers-allowed)?p=6247142&viewfull=1#post6247142

i'm not sure what else you want to be told, given all the information you need is right there.

 

[Ethaidan]

And back on topic... Loved the Xmas episode, loved Capaldi - imho they've been going from one great doctor to the next with fantastic companions since it all restarted (I know I'm in the minority, but I liked CE), and I have every reason to expect that to continue with the next season.

 

[Alien]

i'm not sure what else you want to be told, given all the information you need is right there.

I have not, nor will I, read anything you post. You are too blinkered trying to prove you're right.

 

[Alodia]

I have not, nor will I, read anything you post. You are too blinkered trying to prove you're right.

it's weird how you decided to bail at the exact moment the answers to your questions about how the doctor could possibly be a woman, were in fact answered. whether you choose to read or not, anyone wandering into this thread will be able to read about

1) how most of the main producers, and the show creator, and many of the leading actors, have asked for (or in one case demanded) a woman take the role
2) how those comments and requests go back almost 40 years, and so this is not in fact some recent liberal pc tickbox agenda thing unless you consider most of the lifespan of the show "recent"
3) the in-universe explanation for how it's possible, which has existed as an option for showrunners since 2011.

all of this information, the quotes from people cited, video footage, and more besides are all readily available online. it's utterly baffling that you keep suggesting you don't know how it's possible when the answers have been given at length and freely. at this point, you are more than welcome to refute any or all of the evidence presented that differs with your reading of the situation -no blinkers here, just actual documented doctor who history.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

I have not, nor will I, read anything you post. You are too blinkered trying to prove you're right.

So, basically, you refuse to read anything that runs counter to your opinions.

Gotcha. Say no more.

 

[beelbeebub]

WW1

Look, there's nothing wrong with strong women characters, but the decision to make the Doctor regenerate into a woman this time wasn't done to serve the story, unlike they did with Missy where we had almost a whole series wondering just who this woman was before the reveal moment and the collective "OH ..." from all of us. No, the decision to have the doctor be female was done solely because people kept asking "Why can't the Doctor be female?" and someone at the BBC decided to make the Doctor be female because it then ticked a politically correct box. There has not been a single story reason for the Doctor to be female, not one.

EDIT: I don't see them making the central characters in Call The Midwife male just to tick that politically correctness box ... strange eh?

Let's turn this around.

Have you got any reason why Dr Who cannot be a woman?

Other than some fans don't like the idea (but some do, so it's a wash there).

I can't think of any stories that cannot be told because the Dr is female. In fact there could be some interesting stories generated during time periods where a female Dr might not get listened to simply because she was female. After all, the dynamic we have become used to is of "the Dr is the smartest person in the room and everyone knows it". How many times does the Dr just simply take command and everyone just defers to him?

How might stories go if people of ore the doctor despite her being the smartest person in the room?

It's entirely possible JW might suck as the Dr. I wasn't overly taken with the few seconds I saw but maybe we should all take a beat and wait and see.

As I mentioned there was a vocal backlash against Daniel Craig as Bond and he's turned out pretty well.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I think she's hot.

Probably not why she was cast though. XD

 

[Eidolon]

Let's turn this around.

Have you got any reason why Dr Who cannot be a woman?

I will freely admit that I don't like the idea of a female Doctor. Female Timelord, yes. Female Doctor, no.
The character has always been male, even the unmentioned Peter Cushing movies. I cannot yet reference the episode of Dr Who where he states he always will regenerate as a male, because he is male. Perhaps someone will, but I know it to be cannon.
As soon as the gender change happens the show simply won't be Dr Who anymore. A sad end to a glorious tale.

 

[Stigbob]

I've just re-watched it sober, and I have an observation I missed earlier.

The shows (very funny) running gag about the first Doctor being a bit of a misogynist was specifically included to irritate the sort of people who would lose it about a female Doctor. The programs makers were actively mocking the old fashioned intolerant attitudes of the very people they knew they were about to upset.

I hope they keep this going, it's a good as Captain Jack.