Frontier cant deliver.

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I think we can have a look at how the thargons work and how crowd mechanics can work in a similar way, all online with multiple commanders.

Yeah, Thargons tech can clearly be used for NPCs walking around in stations. Also it is worth to remember that stations are hosted by server (as NPC characters) as far as I remember.

My little hope is that walking NPCs are something FD might - not necessarily will - add during Beyond as testing measure and nice immersion bonus.

 

[xondk]

I think we can have a look at how the thargons work and how crowd mechanics can work in a similar way, all online with multiple commanders.

Dunno, thargon swarm might use internal crowd for their animation, but is still based on seemingly one entity. So yeah Maybe?

 

[lenna]

64 players does not need a 1 Gb lan, at all, telemetry data doesn't take up that much space even with a lot of players, its low amount but highly time sensitive data, 'basically' say x, y, z coordinates, orientation, facing, weapon status, shield status, that sort of thing. And probably more but even say if that was raw text, we'd be looking at no more then what 10kb? (guess obviously, but 10kb can contain a lot of data) of data per second maybe per connection, I think you can actually get the numbers on bandwidth usage from elite itself,
So even with say 10kb per player per second, even at 100 players, we'd only be talking about 1000 kb/s, so 1mb/s of sustained data transmission.
Game data really doesn't take up much actual bandwidth, declaring a minimum in a game where the amount of players found is variable, really would make little sense though I suppose they could just write 10kb/s per player?

Add on to that articulations and other data that may not be easy to dead-reckon. Remember that there are a theoretical maximum of 17 turrets (9 Hardpoints + 8 utility mounts - say multi-canons+point defence) per entity plus bullets per gun to consider, ok that is a worst case and assumes independent targeting of each turret but it is not entirely unrealistic. There are some cheats that can be used such as not sending the full bullet flight information and calculating much of it locally at each end but there would be inevitable disparity in higher latency and lower bandwidth situations. On the basis of a friend's experience in this area - 10kb/s per player is probably too low. On that basis even the worst case ADSL internet connection should be able to handle 50 players, something that is definitely not the case.

200kb/s per player including voice traffic may be closer to the mark IMO but the point was for FD to give us the basis of their claim not for us to speculate about it.

 

[lenna]

...

There is a substantial difference between contracted goods and services and the DDF.

Arguably, once ED hit release one they had made good on the contracted goods and services. Specific in-game rewards for kickstarter players I believe have also been satisfied. Now ED is a released product with a wider customer base to support the DDF specifics are mostly moot. Also anyone with any solid industry experience should know that where software design is concerned, anything with a development time of any significance is subject to change over the life of the product. That is a fact of life I am afraid.

On specific game features, FD are not really obliged to follow through if there is reasonable cause not to. A prime example that was covered by the DDF (or so I am led to believe) is the off-line single player mode.

 

[Kaltern]

Anything mentioned in the KS is not legally binding, in any way shape or form.

DDF folks, with all respect.. get over it yes?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Anything mentioned in the KS is not legally binding, in any way shape or form.

DDF folks, with all respect.. get over it yes?

KS mentioned very little, there was no 3D cockpit, VR, just few concept arts, pictures, videos and David and Michael describing game. And DDF had disclaimer about these being just ideas which FD will use to design game and they never promise to make it as it is described there.

 

[Genus]

I think a lot of people in this thread are still confusing "fans", with "customers".

It's difficult for fans to be told they can vote with their feet as many feel they are unable to. Who would want to give up on something they love, just because the current designers are having trouble?

Things will come around this year. If Beyond hits the mark, a lot of fans will be happy. If it doesn't, they'll see changes of a different sort.

It's the way business is done.

 

[lenna]

I think a lot of people in this thread are still confusing "fans", with "customers".

I am not sure what you mean by this, but I think I am getting what you are implying by the latter part of your post.

As far as ED is concerned the term "customers" is moot unless you are talking about them purchasing new premium content (cosmetic items are mostly moot). I suppose that could include the diehards who still have not bought into Horizons but such people are likely to not fully benefit from the Beyond changes if I understand things correctly but there are at least some who simply can not justify paying out the extra for Horizons (or any game DLC) regardless of how much they play ED. LEP owners could technically count as customers but that is another matter entirely since there has never been a declared timescale for delivery of the content for ED and any expectations of timescale is largely moot and irrelevant since it is a "Lifetime" expansion pass.

Voting with your feet is normally referring to buying something and that is largely moot where Beyond is concerned because it is expected to basically be free for Horizons owners - additional premium content not included. When considering people who do not own ED at all and are still critiquing ED then in all likelihood they are arguing from a point of ignorance and on the most part should be ignored IMO.

TL;DR perhaps you could be more clear in what you are meaning for those who can not (or find it hard to) read between the lines.

 

[GraXXoR]

Oh I will quote here, because I didn't see your responses

IT's not the flight model that's the issue - it's the actual physics of the planets themselves. I mean, adding atmosphere to what we already have is trivial. No, PROPER atmospheric planets would be adding vegetation, climates, weather... that sort of thing. I don't believe that's possible with the current set up - maybe, if they rewrite a LOT of the planetary generation code, it might be.

Will they? I don't believe so, no. Why? Because.. they don't 'need' to.

(I just saw your response, and I aplologise - as I say, I never saw it - Rep duly given

They don’t even have proper NPC gravity on planets yet, forget any idea of higher level physics.

Fast forward to about 2:30 in the following video.
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CKFU0c916vE[/video]

 

[Julio Montega]

There is a substantial difference between contracted goods and services and the DDF.

Arguably, once ED hit release one they had made good on the contracted goods and services. Specific in-game rewards for kickstarter players I believe have also been satisfied. Now ED is a released product with a wider customer base to support the DDF specifics are mostly moot. Also anyone with any solid industry experience should know that where software design is concerned, anything with a development time of any significance is subject to change over the life of the product. That is a fact of life I am afraid.

On specific game features, FD are not really obliged to follow through if there is reasonable cause not to. A prime example that was covered by the DDF (or so I am led to believer) is the off-line single player mode.

So what i get from the responses nobody has any
real answer, it is all guesstimation.
The DDFs look very similar to a Technical Design Specifications document,
which is used to clarify the way stuff is done and implemented on a legal basis.

Fd fail really to deliver the feeling that the players are valued customers.
It needs a big cryout to get them into a dialogue,
and then some month after, as they have eased the ache,
they retreat again.
That is not how to do it!

 

[babelfisch]

So what i get from the responses nobody has any
real answer, it is all guesstimation.
The DDFs look very similar to a Technical Design Specifications document,
which is used to clarify the way stuff is done and implemented on a legal basis.

Fd fail really to deliver the feeling that the players are valued customers.
It needs a big cryout to get them into a dialogue,
and then some month after, as they have eased the ache,
they retreat again.
That is not how to do it!

No, it doesn't. Not even slightly.

 

[Julio Montega]

No, it doesn't. Not even slightly.

Well it is a forum, not a document, simple and correct.
I meant similar to, from the way they are discussed
and finished, how "features" are decided and how
we at work then finalize them for documentation.

The whole project and kickstarter stuff is very fuzzy,
easy for FD to deliver half and still keep within
ramifications.

It is just sad to see, that after a lot of discussing
hot topics and questionable design, FD IMO
still continues on the course of not going the extra
step with mechanics and their new "features".

You see the love in the presentation of the galaxy,
the sound design and the graphipcs detail,
but love in the mechanics, there is none.
I left out ship design on purpose,
as we see the rushed results of introducing
"upgraded" ships like Viper MKIV, Cobra MKIV,
Diamondback Explorer and T-10.
Hardly any real changes, especially on the cockpits.

 

[babelfisch]

Well it is a forum, not a document, simple and correct.
I meant similar to, from the way they are discussed
and finished, how "features" are decided and how
we at work then finalize them for documentation.

The whole project and kickstarter stuff is very fuzzy,
easy for FD to deliver half and still keep within
ramifications.

It is just sad to see, that after a lot of discussing
hot topics and questionable design, FD IMO
still continues on the course of not going the extra
step with mechanics and their new "features".

You see the love in the presentation of the galaxy,
the sound design and the graphipcs detail,
but love in the mechanics, there is none.
I left out ship design on purpose,
as we see the rushed results of introducing
"upgraded" ships like Viper MKIV, Cobra MKIV,
Diamondback Explorer and T-10.
Hardly any real changes, especially on the cockpits.

The DDF was started after Kickstarter, I think almost everything they talked about during Kickstarter is already in the game or was always planned to be released at a later date as paid expansion. I think only Solo Offline mode is missing and people got a refund for that AFAIK. There was a lot of "we could" or "we would like to" but no "we will". The lifetime of the game is also not over yet, there are still many years and expansions to come, I absolutely expect the game to get better. If you take all ideas, expectations and wishes the community has and try to develop a game it would take 15 years and you would end up with Star Citizen...

Now is the current state of the game perfect? No. Do I always agree with their design decisions? No. Are they working on improving the game? Yes, since 3 years and it looks like they are continuing to do so for another few years, which can't be said about 99% of all other games out there. Continue to provide constructive feedback and criticism but people should never expect that everyone agrees with them.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Well it is a forum, not a document, simple and correct.
I meant similar to, from the way they are discussed
and finished, how "features" are decided and how
we at work then finalize them for documentation.

The whole project and kickstarter stuff is very fuzzy,
easy for FD to deliver half and still keep within
ramifications.

Yes, it was fuzzy for good reason - FD didn't want promise anything they can't deliver.
It is strange for you to insist they owe you more.

It is just sad to see, that after a lot of discussing
hot topics and questionable design, FD IMO
still continues on the course of not going the extra
step with mechanics and their new "features".

Because extra doesn't mean good. It is also funny how people pick few things for DDF and ignore rest of it. Also features described on paper feels awesome and immersive, but when boiled down to something you can actually play, that's portable across devices, that feels natural...it appears as simple button press in the end.

Also you can measure dev's work against your excitement for it, but that's not really how it works.

 

[Julio Montega]

The DDF was started after Kickstarter, I think almost everything they talked about during Kickstarter is already in the game or was always planned to be released at a later date as paid expansion. I think only Solo Offline mode is missing and people got a refund for that AFAIK. There was a lot of "we could" or "we would like to" but no "we will". The lifetime of the game is also not over yet, there are still many years and expansions to come, I absolutely expect the game to get better. If you take all ideas, expectations and wishes the community has and try to develop a game it would take 15 years and you would end up with Star Citizen...

Now is the current state of the game perfect? No. Do I always agree with their design decisions? No. Are they working on improving the game? Yes, since 3 years and it looks like they are continuing to do so for another few years, which can't be said about 99% of all other games out there. Continue to provide constructive feedback and criticism but people should never expect that everyone agrees with them.

Thanks for clarification, if the DDF started after the KS campaign,
then the pledge is fulfilled, due to the fuzzy description of "design involvement".

Yes, it was fuzzy for good reason - FD didn't want promise anything they can't deliver.
It is strange for you to insist they owe you more.

Where did i say they owe me more or anything?
I am just looking into some stuff that interests me,
and try to investigate FDs implementation and development
behaviour including customer treatment.
You start at the beginning with that task, aye?

 

[Eros]

They don’t even have proper NPC gravity on planets yet, forget any idea of higher level physics.

Fast forward to about 2:30 in the following video.
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CKFU0c916vE[/url]

Whats that? using a video which is about 2 years old to make a statement that isn't true anymore. There are plenty of videos out there showing NPCs crashing on planets when their drives have been taken out. Iv done it myself.

The physics in game does have some weirdness that is for sure, and does appear to have terminal velocities in place when really there shouldn't be. Regardless, your point is rendered moot...

Try harder

 

[lenna]

Where did i say they owe me more or anything?

It was your tirade about DDF being effectively the bible for what should or should not be done that gave that impression whether you meant it to be the case or not.

 

[Julio Montega]

It was your tirade about DDF being effectively the bible for what should or should not be done that gave that impression whether you meant it to be the case or not.

Well i do see the points made in these archives as important.
As these reflect the result of player dialogue with the designers,
discussing the different parameters the finished game should reflect.

We have clarified the question whether FD has any more liabilities
to the ddfs as they don't.
That point is discussed.

But i wonder if the people who discussed those feature designs
with FD are disappointed not seeing them ingame as they were finalized.
Customer appreciation is a very important part of keeping a playerbase.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

The DDF was started after Kickstarter

I suggest you take a look at the KS pledge levels and the rewards that are listed - the DDF was one of those - in other words the DDF membership was SPECIFICALLY SOLD DURING THE KS.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

look at the entry for £300.

Technically you are correct the DDF started after but that is a consequence of it having been sold DURING the KS.

I think almost everything they talked about during Kickstarter is already in the game or was always planned to be released at a later date as paid expansion.

WOW talk about your quintissential sweeping statement - it's also based on wildly subjective assumptions with ZERO facts to back it up, unless you personally have access to the developmental timeline records or were otherwise involved at the time. No? Didn't think so.

Because FDev were quite careful to not give specifics about delivery dates, one COULD say that they are ahead of schedule - but the flip side of not giving any timelines means one could ALSO say they are behind, which is the more accurate summation, based on the facts that CqC and PP WERE NOT PART OF THE KS, and NEITHER WAS XBONE COMPATIBILITY - point of fact it was specifically stated that ED was being funded via KS for the VERY REASON that FDev didn't want to get into bed with publishers.

*cough* but they did it anyway.

I think only Solo Offline mode is missing and people got a refund for that AFAIK.

wrong - watch the development plan videos ON THE KS PLEDGE PAGE, to see just how many things mentioned in the KS are STILL MISSING.

Also the only people who got refunds (eventually) were those who requested FULL refunds for their entire KS pledge, because of missing offline mode - all the KS backers that didn't request a full refund got fk all by way of a token refund - not even so much as a "sorry we couldn't get you offline mode KS backers, as a token of that we are giving you £10 worth of instore credit"

and I'll take this opportunity to remind you AGAIN that the KS reward of a physical 3d modeled ship, HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN OR A PARTIAL REFUND OFFERED TO MAKE UP FOR THE DIFFERENCE IN COST BETWEEN THAT KS LEVEL AND THE ONES WITHOUT. - the KS page has been altered to remove that from the rewards page (aka "hiding the evidence" - but some forward thinking people archived it elsewhere...

the monetary difference between the KS rewards with models and without starts at £100 - ONE HUNDRED POUNDS!!!! and it gets worse - the 1st tier 3d models is £400 (viper) the next is £500 (cobra), then there's a cutaway viper for £550, next up is the (anaconda) at £700.... and lastly there was cutaway anaconda for a whopping £950.

so in actuality for those 100 that backed for a cutaway anaconda they paid £650 SIX HUNDRED AND FIFTY POUNDS MORE for the same level of rewards.

in total FDEV gained almost TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND POUNDS by not honoring or refunding the 3d model rewards of the KS pledges. - Money they have still not returned even after making 20 million.

Edit - on the 21st of september 2017 DB sold 3 million shares in FDev for a total of £3o,742,500 GBP.

I suggest he either refunds that £200,000 to the KS backers missing theier 3d model ships - or delivers them as promised (and paid for).

There was a lot of "we could" or "we would like to" but no "we will". The lifetime of the game is also not over yet, there are still many years and expansions to come, I absolutely expect the game to get better. If you take all ideas, expectations and wishes the community has and try to develop a game it would take 15 years and you would end up with Star Citizen...

Eve Online has been running 15 years and counting and show ZERO signs of slowing down - if anything it has more accounts than it ever has.

Now is the current state of the game perfect? No. Do I always agree with their design decisions? No. Are they working on improving the game? Yes, since 3 years and it looks like they are continuing to do so for another few years, which can't be said about 99% of all other games out there.

Yeah, because they don't stay in beta state for 3 years after a supposed "gold launch" - ED should have stayed in an extended alpha state for at least another 18 months rather than when it was launched as "complete" - with the game having expansions after that.

If ED had stayed in extended alpha at least until Horizons had been launched (and CqC and PP not been done at all) - FDev would have had a lot less backlash for the poor choices they made.

People would still be playing, as they are now but the delivery of content, experience and expectations would have been more realistic for the players, instead of expecting a game where the current content is fully "finished" (because that's how its marketed), and expansions are just that - not constant fixes of the SAME GODDAMN STUFF.... over and over and over and over.

 

[babelfisch]

I suggest you take a look at the KS pledge levels and the rewards that are listed - the DDF was one of those - in other words the DDF membership was SPECIFICALLY SOLD DURING THE KS.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

look at the entry for £300.

Technically you are correct the DDF started after but that is a consequence of it having been sold DURING the KS.

The point was that the stuff they discussed in the DDF (which was started after Kickstarter) was not promised during Kickstarter. I don't see how you could possibly fail to understand that, but since English isn't my first language I guess I am to blame for that.

WOW talk about your quintissential sweeping statement - it's also based on wildly subjective assumptions with ZERO facts to back it up, unless you personally have access to the developmental timeline records or were otherwise involved at the time. No? Didn't think so.

Because FDev were quite careful to not give specifics about delivery dates, one COULD say that they are ahead of schedule - but the flip side of not giving any timelines means one could ALSO say they are behind, which is the more accurate summation, based on the facts that CqC and PP WERE NOT PART OF THE KS, and NEITHER WAS XBONE COMPATIBILITY - point of fact it was specifically stated that ED was being funded via KS for the VERY REASON that FDev didn't want to get into bed with publishers.

*cough* but they did it anyway.

Again, I absoultely don't understand how you could fail to understand what I tried to say. I am obviously talking about the stuff they talked openly about and not behind closed doors.
It doesn't really matter if CQC and PP are part of the Kickstarter, it's their game and if they want to add it there is no reason they shouldn't (I wish they would not have wasted time on that too). By the way, PP is part of the DDF via Tier 1 NPCs. And they did announce console ports during Kickstarter, they always said they want to bring the game to different platforms, I can go and find a link if you want.

wrong - watch the development plan videos ON THE KS PLEDGE PAGE, to see just how many things mentioned in the KS are STILL MISSING.

Also the only people who got refunds (eventually) were those who requested FULL refunds for their entire KS pledge, because of missing offline mode - all the KS backers that didn't request a full refund got fk all by way of a token refund - not even so much as a "sorry we couldn't get you offline mode KS backers, as a token of that we are giving you £10 worth of instore credit"

and I'll take this opportunity to remind you AGAIN that the KS reward of a physical 3d modeled ship, HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN OR A PARTIAL REFUND OFFERED TO MAKE UP FOR THE DIFFERENCE IN COST BETWEEN THAT KS LEVEL AND THE ONES WITHOUT. - the KS page has been altered to remove that from the rewards page (aka "hiding the evidence" - but some forward thinking people archived it elsewhere...

the monetary difference between the KS rewards with models and without starts at £100 - ONE HUNDRED POUNDS!!!! and it gets worse - the 1st tier 3d models is £400 (viper) the next is £500 (cobra), then there's a cutaway viper for £550, next up is the (anaconda) at £700.... and lastly there was cutaway anaconda for a whopping £950.

so in actuality for those 100 that backed for a cutaway anaconda they paid £650 SIX HUNDRED AND FIFTY POUNDS MORE for the same level of rewards.

I suggest you contact your lawyer, I was talking about the game and not physical rewards.

COLOR="#FF8C00"]in total FDEV gained almost TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND POUNDS by not honoring or refunding the 3d model rewards of the KS pledges. - Money they have still not returned even after making 20 million.[/COLOR]

Your Kickstarter money only provided a fraction of the initial development costs (which were around 20 million IIRC) so following your argument you owe them money.

Edit - on the 21st of september 2017 DB sold 3 million shares in FDev for a total of £30,742,500 GBP.

I suggest he either refunds that £200,000 to the KS backers missing theier 3d model ships - or delivers them as promised (and paid for).

Again, I suggest you contact your lawyer rather than posting on their forums.

Eve Online has been running 15 years and counting and show ZERO signs of slowing down - if anything it has more accounts than it ever has.

Again, I don't understand how you managed to misunderstand my post. I am not talking about player accounts but about development of content. Anyway, since you are talking about player accounts, if it's worth anything, steam charts currently says that there are more people in the game than in 2014.

Yeah, because they don't stay in beta state for 3 years after a supposed "gold launch" - ED should have stayed in an extended alpha state for at least another 18 months rather than when it was launched as "complete" - with the game having expansions after that.

If ED had stayed in extended alpha at least until Horizons had been launched (and CqC and PP not been done at all) - FDev would have had a lot less backlash for the poor choices they made.

Funny that you say that, because that's exactly what I think as well and what I just posted in another thread that I started. However I don't know if they would've run out of money and we would end with no game at all, which is why I still believe that DBOBE makes a better CEO than both of us.

People would still be playing, as they are now but the delivery of content, experience and expectations would have been more realistic for the players, instead of expecting a game where the current content is fully "finished" (because that's how its marketed), and expansions are just that - not constant fixes of the SAME GODDAMN STUFF.... over and over and over and over.

People are still playing.