The epic fail of Beyond

[GreyAreaUK]

The plans for this next years development are so slim

Slim? What?

 

[Franc Kaos]

Actually, you most certainly do look like the description of a white knight - time and time again. Don't kid yourself here. This game has issues; it's not perfect. And the points being raised by many are valid. But this thread isn't about you. It's about speculating on Beyond. And as of right now there's little to defend what Beyond will be but lots of evidence to suggest it will disappoint as many of the core issues have not been mentioned as things being fixed.
Defend away. As Sun Tzu said "defend only that which needs defending". Think about it...

I don't often agree with babelfisch but in this respect I think he's in the right*. He's (badly paraphrasing here), said he's not sure sure that Beyond is going to massively change things and that if you dom't enjoy the game as is now, Beyond probably isn't going to change that.
And I'm pretty sure (not read the Art of War admittedly), that he meant those less able to defend themselves not some stupid** game on a gaming forum.

* I consider myself having lost all faith in fdev on the white knight / hater spectrum and will slowly drift away from this forum over the next six months as acceptance ends the five stages of grief.
** No offense Fdev (still secretly hoping you pull a Hail Mary in Beyond).

 

[babelfisch]

I kind of agree. But I think people are looking at this from two different angles here. Some are looking at the list and saying "Look at all these things they're doing. How can you call all this slim?" And that's fair enough. They ARE improving some things and adding new things, and from that perspective it's not 'slim'.

But then there's the perspective that I, and I think alot of others, have that the game has some quite serious core problems still after 3 years. Looking at their proposals for how they plan to fix the core game, I already have the feeling it's not remotely enough. We're still not addressing a criminal career, even though it's the perfect time to do it alongside the punishment updates. The engineering revamp is already widely criticized. The BGS is still a mess. Etc etc.

And that's assuming they actually pull off everything they say they have planned, which historically they have proven they have a problem with time and time again.

So when you look at the amount of "stuff" they are doing - not thin. When you compare how much they are doing with how much NEEDS to be done to fix the core game, pretty thin if you ask me.

I agree with you there. But I also believe that no amount of features and updates will fix the game for those who think the core of the game is utterly broken. You either like the game and discuss the various features, make suggestions, criticise stuff that can be changed with reasonable effort and time or you don't like the game, in that case I think it would be best if people move on. People will not suddenly like the game just because they add planetary bookmarks...

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I agree with you there. But I also believe that no amount of features and updates will fix the game for those who think the core of the game is utterly broken. You either like the game and discuss the various features, make suggestions, criticise stuff that can be changed with reasonable effort and time or you don't like the game, in that case I think it would be best if people move on. People will not suddenly like the game just because they add planetary bookmarks...

While I repped you, I don't think it is all truth - there are many players who find some nitpicky things annoying and stop playing because of them. See beige debate and other issues.

So Beyond will allow lot of players enjoy game more. But fundamentally I agree though...Beyond nor next paid for dlc will make people suddenly enjoy ED if they simply don't.

 

[babelfisch]

According to the forums they need
- a different CEO
- a different Lead Designer
- different programmers
- different QA
- different priorities
- a different server structure
- different community management
- a different core
- different features
...

Well they already have different offices, but apart from that... Wouldn't it be easier to look for a different company and game?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Well they already have different offices, but apart from that... Wouldn't it be easier to look for a different company and game?

Turns out there's certain mental capabilities required to pull this stuff off Aka - "this is only ship actually swimming around the sea, so we have to rearrange this...otherwise we should sit sad at seaside".

 

[NeilF]

I guess you played the game for a few thousand hours, no surprise that it is no longer fun. Nothing is fun for thousands of hours, eating, sleeping, mating...

Yes and no...

I'm (also) no longer playing, so let's go through some of the additions to the game over the last X years?

• CQC - Played it for a couple of weeks. Done.
• Powerplay - Only really taken part in order to get modules.
• Ship fighters - Vaguely interesting, but rather limited.
• Guardian Bases - Spent a couple of hours at one. Done.
• Thargoid Bases - Spent a couple of hours at one. Done.
• Generation Ships - Went to one with a friend. We both pointed and clicked. Done.
• Asteroid bases - Seen one in passing. No new gameplay so done.
• The Engineers - Begrudgingly taken part in the shallow grind mechanics to simply make ships "competitive".
• Thargoid Interdiction - Spent hours trying to get interdicted... Was... Done.
• Thargoid Ships - Spent an hour or two fighting/sampling these new boss ships. But all a tad meaningless so done.
• Damaged stations - Spent an hour or two at these visual treats. Done.
• Multi-Crew - Spent less than a hour. Done.

Of course the above list isn't exhaustive (and other features have been excellent - eg: surfaces), but my point? Of course you stand the risk of getting tired of mechanics and gameplay. But so very much of what FD have added over the past X years seems to be shallow fire and forget gameplay. I cannot help but wonder if some/most/all of this effort had instead gone into creating content/mechanics with depth and layers, which ideally fed off each other, how much different the story might be (at least for me).


The game started wearing thin for me end of 2015, when I realised I was only really playing in order to improve my position for when it might mean something. eg: Credits to spend on something meaningful. You can understand maybe that given the content that's come in the two years since then, and with my view of it, why I'm not enamoured with the design choices we've seen given a thumbs up.

I'm truly hoping the content this year adds to the depth of the game. Enough to at least bring me back for a few dozen (or hundreds) of hours... But it would require (IMHO) FDEV to show a significant change in design direction/aspiration from the past X years. Fingers crossed!

 

[babelfisch]

Yes and no...

I'm (also) no longer playing, so let's go through some of the additions to the game over the last X years?

• CQC - Played it for a couple of weeks. Done.
• Powerplay - Only really taken part in order to get modules.
• Ship fighters - Vaguely interesting, but rather limited.
• Guardian Bases - Spent a couple of hours at one. Done.
• Thargoid Bases - Spent a couple of hours at one. Done.
• Generation Ships - Went to one with a friend. We both pointed and clicked. Done.
• Asteroid bases - Seen one in passing. No new gameplay so done.
• The Engineers - Begrudgingly taken part in the shallow grind mechanics to simply make ships "competitive".
• Thargoid Interdiction - Spent hours trying to get interdicted... Was... Done.
• Thargoid Ships - Spent an hour or two fighting/sampling these new boss ships. But all a tad meaningless so done.
• Multi-Crew - Spent less than a hour. Done.

Of course the above this isn't exhaustive, but my point? Of course you stand the risk of getting tired of mechanics and gameplay. But so very much of what FD have added over the past X years seems to be shallow fire and forget gameplay. I cannot help but wonder if some/most/all of this effort had instead gone into creating content/mechanics with depth and layers, which ideally fed off each other, how much different the story might be (at least for me).


The game started wearing thin for me end of 2015, when I realised I was only really playing in order to improve my position for when it might mean something. eg: Credits to spend on something meaningful. You can understand maybe that given the content that's come in the two years since then, and with my view of it, why I'm not enamoured with the design choices we've seen given a thumbs up.

I think that's a perfectly valid opinion and I absolutely understand it.

 

[Skizomeuh]

Yes and no...

I'm (also) no longer playing, so let's go through some of the additions to the game over the last X years?

• CQC - Played it for a couple of weeks. Done.
• Powerplay - Only really taken part in order to get modules.
• Ship fighters - Vaguely interesting, but rather limited.
• Guardian Bases - Spent a couple of hours at one. Done.
• Thargoid Bases - Spent a couple of hours at one. Done.
• Generation Ships - Went to one with a friend. We both pointed and clicked. Done.
• Asteroid bases - Seen one in passing. No new gameplay so done.
• The Engineers - Begrudgingly taken part in the shallow grind mechanics to simply make ships "competitive".
• Thargoid Interdiction - Spent hours trying to get interdicted... Was... Done.
• Thargoid Ships - Spent an hour or two fighting/sampling these new boss ships. But all a tad meaningless so done.
• Damaged stations - Spent an hour or two at these visual treats. Done.
• Multi-Crew - Spent less than a hour. Done.

Of course the above list isn't exhaustive (and other features have been excellent - eg: surfaces), but my point? Of course you stand the risk of getting tired of mechanics and gameplay. But so very much of what FD have added over the past X years seems to be shallow fire and forget gameplay. I cannot help but wonder if some/most/all of this effort had instead gone into creating content/mechanics with depth and layers, which ideally fed off each other, how much different the story might be (at least for me).


The game started wearing thin for me end of 2015, when I realised I was only really playing in order to improve my position for when it might mean something. eg: Credits to spend on something meaningful. You can understand maybe that given the content that's come in the two years since then, and with my view of it, why I'm not enamoured with the design choices we've seen given a thumbs up.

I'm truly hoping the content this year adds to the depth of the game. Enough to at least bring me back for a few dozen (or hundreds) of hours... But it would require (IMHO) FDEV to show a significant change in design direction/aspiration from the past X years. Fingers crossed!

That's what's called constructive criticism. +rep even though the game hasn't started wearing thin on me because I can't play very much, y'know... IRL reasons...

I second the "fire & forget" aspect plaguing several added features. Though some could be tempered because of the slow pace of the story arcs and the required developments to bring them (and new features) further.

 

[CMDR Rusty Dog]

The priority during Horizons development happened to be Planet Coaster. We all know how Horizons has turned out as a result.

Planet Coaster has separate people working in a separate building to the people working on Eliteangerous.
The development of one is not to the detriment of the other.

 

[Komemiute]

So slim to compare to what? How many dev hours it take?

Obviously you have no idea the games john willi designed, developed and published! Dude, ask him... He knows... stuff- you know?

 

[NeilF]

Planet Coaster has separate people working in a separate building to the people working on Eliteangerous.
The development of one is not to the detriment of the other.

Not sure how solid this statement is. Are you suggesting some individuals (code/artists/sound/graphics) were not working on both? I think it highly likely some individuals who were working on ED, were also spending some of their time on PC when it was being developed. Question really comes down to how significant would this have been to ED. ie: If it was a dozen individuals working 50/50 on the two titles, you could suggest then this wasn't insignificant. However, if it was more people and/or more of the time?


What I find more interesting is the art-heavy-gameplay-light nature of so much of the content in the past two years. Asteroid bases. Generation ships. CQC assets being added to the core game. Guardian bases. Thargoid bases. Thargoid interdictions... I'm confused why so much of the past two years seems to be heavy on art and light on gameplay depth (IMHO). Is this down to?:-

• FD playing it safe and not risking "significant improvements" to gameplay depth/mechanics?
• Lack of gameplay development resources to implement more complicated features?
• Lack of vision in designers to raise the bar in these areas?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Not sure how solid this statement is. Are you suggesting some individuals (code/artists/sound/graphics) were not working on both? I think it highly likely some individuals who were working on ED, were also spending some of their time on PC when it was being developed. Question really comes down to how significant would this have been to ED. ie: If it was a dozen individuals working 50/50 on the two titles, you could suggest then this wasn't insignificant. However, if it was more people and/or more of the time?


What I find more interesting is the art-heavy-gameplay-light nature of so much of the content in the past two years. Asteroid bases. Generation ships. CQC assets being added to the core game. Guardian bases. Thargoid bases. Thargoid interdictions... I'm confused why so much of the past two years seems to be heavy on art and light on gameplay depth (IMHO). Is this down to?:-

• FD playing it safe and not risking "significant improvements" to gameplay depth/mechanics?
• Lack of gameplay development resources to implement more complicated features?
• Lack of vision in designers to raise the bar in these areas?

Probably because they have been doing the main features of the releases instead. Hopefully with the better core updates coming, some of these things will be built upon instead of left static.

 

[babelfisch]

Not sure how solid this statement is. Are you suggesting some individuals (code/artists/sound/graphics) were not working on both? I think it highly likely some individuals who were working on ED, were also spending some of their time on PC when it was being developed. Question really comes down to how significant would this have been to ED. ie: If it was a dozen individuals working 50/50 on the two titles, you could suggest then this wasn't insignificant. However, if it was more people and/or more of the time?


What I find more interesting is the art-heavy-gameplay-light nature of so much of the content in the past two years. Asteroid bases. Generation ships. CQC assets being added to the core game. Guardian bases. Thargoid bases. Thargoid interdictions... I'm confused why so much of the past two years seems to be heavy on art and light on gameplay depth (IMHO). Is this down to?:-

• FD playing it safe and not risking "significant improvements" to gameplay depth/mechanics?
• Lack of gameplay development resources to implement more complicated features?
• Lack of vision in designers to raise the bar in these areas?

Since they are using their own engine coding takes more time than creating assets. For proprietary engines the tools and mechanics you need often already exist while they must do everything from scratch. So it's a possibility that we haven't seen much of what they have been working on for the last years yet. But that's just me hoping, I don't necessarily believe in it.

 

[babelfisch]

I suspect it's a little more grey area than that. They both use the Cobra engine, so the coders who work on the engine may be prioritizing what Planet Coaster & Jurassic World need. But also, we do know that some of the Elite team got pulled to work on the other two games. I know for sure Michael Brookes, and I'm sure he wasn't the only one.

Yes but they are also constantly hiring new people.

 

[Enderby]

I am sure it’s not doomed to fail soon but it does seem doomed to not being particularly good.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I suspect it's a little more grey area than that. They both use the Cobra engine, so the coders who work on the engine may be prioritizing what Planet Coaster & Jurassic World need. But also, we do know that some of the Elite team got pulled to work on the other two games. I know for sure Michael Brookes, and I'm sure he wasn't the only one.

The cobra engine is a framework. It's already designed. While I suspect that people like the sound guys and some of the other none vital roles get shared they both have their own core teams. You can see this by looking at the ED and Planet Coaster credits. They both have their own programmers and designers for instance which have nothing to do with Planet Coaster and I suspect Jurassic world too.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I suspect it's a little more grey area than that. They both use the Cobra engine, so the coders who work on the engine may be prioritizing what Planet Coaster & Jurassic World need. But also, we do know that some of the Elite team got pulled to work on the other two games. I know for sure Michael Brookes, and I'm sure he wasn't the only one.

ED Horizons was produced by Adam Woods and Eddie. Michael Brookes still oversee proceedings, but both Adam and Eddie are more than capable to keep steady ship.

As for people get shared between games - of course. Coders with specific skills like AI, server code, etc. they move around. When server is like in production, code doesn't change much or even very little. Also lot of time during development takes planning and design, not actual code.

 

[NeilF]

...but both Adam and Eddie are more than capable to keep steady ship.

Well, if "the ship" continued to sail this year anothing like the past couple of years, rather than significantly changing course to deeper waters, I suspect I'll set sail for good...

 

[Jools]

I suspect it's a little more grey area than that. They both use the Cobra engine, so the coders who work on the engine may be prioritizing what Planet Coaster & Jurassic World need. But also, we do know that some of the Elite team got pulled to work on the other two games. I know for sure Michael Brookes, and I'm sure he wasn't the only one.

Quite a few

Including key staff:

[video=youtube;9NSMMTfwTOU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NSMMTfwTOU[/video]

hello here is the stuff we will not deliver

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maYufgvcRis&t=2m13s

Hello again. Elite? Undelivered promises? Never heard about it