[Suggestion] Beyond - If you do not have access to station facilities, sell LEGAL cargo on the Black Market

[NeilF]

In a large way, however, getting a fair price is what the controlled market is for. Fairness doesn't really exist, when a CMDR is asking some shady contact to please take some stuff off their hands. The shady buyer isn't a charity. And it's tough that CMDR is in a hard spot. But the black market buyer is looking for a profit, too. A CMDR who's in a pinch is easy to take advantage of, and the black market dealer's offer is really a "take it or leave it" situation.

Of course, I'm writing this from the perspective of imagining a quite vivid, living sense of the Elite galaxy, of dealing with legal burdens, of financial and/or situational woe. A black market isn't a fair or sanctioned place, really. Sometimes, advantages are going to be taken of those who are in a bad spot.

EDIT: I'm imagining here looking at an NPC offering me 50% of my cargo value and thinking... "Sorry piece of garbage." Then maybe having to take the offer, anyway. That's a sort of interesting layer of interaction that might crop up, by letting things get a bit "unfair" on this front.

I'm thinking of two scenarios where for example I need to sell otherwise legal/non-stolen goods on a Black Market?

I'm pirating at a CG, threatened a CMDR than they've abandoned 10t of cargo so it's not stolen. I turn up to the station, and as I have a bounty I can't sell the Gold on the Commodity Market. Instead, I'd want to duck into the Black Market and sell it for a reasonable price there.

I'm delivering some passengers to a station where I have a find/bounty. I complete the first lot, and they give me some cargo, which fills up my cargo space. I can't complete the second passenger mission as they are also giving me cargo. I can't sell the cargo on the COmmodity Market, so have to dump it? Really? Surely better if I can simply duck into the Black Market and sell it at least for something there?

And I suspect there's a myriad more scenarios where it would just be nice to be able to sell non-stolen/non-illegal goods on the Black Market when you don't have access to the station's Commodity Market.

 

[Boff'in]

To the op, I think this is in there, the black market contacts (by definition) would always be flexible.
Of course being physically locked down in your ship, might be a thing for when you can walk out of your ship but alas I speculate stupidly

 

[NeilF]

Initial thoughts: it should be a big reduction in price, if so. What's the point of having restricted services if you can still just go about your business as normal? Why not have a shady Universal Cartographics dealer who pays a fair price too if so?

There's gotta be some incentive to go to Anarchies too, no?

Not suggesting going about your business normal, simply suggesting where you do have restricted access, if you have 1t of legal Gold, and 1t of stolen Gold, instead of only being able to seel the 1t of Stolen gold and having no way to get rid of the legal Gold other than jettisoning it, you should be able to sell that on the Black Market too!

If they're willing to take 1t of stolen Gold off your hands for price X, you can bet they'd love to take 1t of legal Gold off your hands for at least the same price surely?


It's a subtle suggestion but just means it gets rid of lots of little potential annoyances. eg:-

I'm delivering some passengers to a station where I have a fine/bounty. I complete the first lot, and they give me some cargo which fills up my cargo space. I can't complete the second passenger mission as they are also giving me cargo. I can't sell the cargo on the Commodity Market, so have to dump it? Really? Surely better if I can simply duck into the Black Market (if there is one) and sell it at least for something there?​

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Aren't you confusing what you'd like, with what actually is in the game?

Unless I'm missing something, if you have stolen goods or illegal goods, you can sell them on the Black Market in ED? ie: They will appear in your list of cargo applicable to sell on the Station's Black Market.

All I'm suggesting is, if you do not have access to the Commodity Market, then your other cargo (not-stolen, not-illegal) is also listed and can be sold (if applicable etc).

Nope. I just looked up the definition of them and that is what it came back as in the dictionary.

 

[NeilF]

To the op, I think this is in there, the black market contacts (by definition) would always be flexible.
Of course being physically locked down in your ship, might be a thing for when you can walk out of your ship but alas I speculate stupidly

Only cargo with a state of Illegal or Stolen is listed for you to sell when you go to the Black Market (I'm 99% sure)?

Hence the suggestion to including non-stolen/non-illegal cargo if you do not have access to the Commodity Market etc.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You can sell stolen items on the black market. You can sell not stolen items on the black market. The whole point about the black market is that it involves clandestine dealing, avoiding some legal requirement (tax, quality, whatever). It covers any illegal trade (though some illegal trades have more specific names, e.g. fencing).

Then what it says in the dictionary is wrong and you are right. Okay.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You don't have access to anything.

Off to anarchy you go.

 

[Terry Bruge-Hiplo]

If they're willing to take 1t of stolen Gold off your hands for price X, you can bet they'd love to take 1t of legal Gold off your hands for at least the same price surely?

OK, I'm kinda on board with you there... [up]

But only if you have the same kind of cargo (one lot legal, the other illegal)... just for the sake of convenience, and not just making it another commodity market. I'd still be good with the idea of them taking other regular commodities as long as they shaft you on the price.

Edit: clarification

 

[NeilF]

Nope. I just looked up the definition of them and that is what it came back as in the dictionary.

For goodness sake... It seems you're always in such a rush to prove a point you don't actually read what people write before responding.

I suggested your terms for Black Market and Fence were not what the game meant? ie: We're questioning where/how you sell illegal/stolen goods in the game, and how this relates to "Black Market".

Now unless I'm getting very confused and even this ED Wiki is wrong? - http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Market

Some starports offer a black market. This is additional to the Commodities Market and is the only place where stolen goods and/or illegal goods can be traded.

Or - http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Stolen_Goods

Stolen goods may be sold at any station offering a Black Market in the Contacts menu of Starport Services.

Now please, can we just back to the simple suggestion at hand, and the nice little rough edges it removes from the gameplay.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Would you want an ISIS leader as a neighbor? Charlie Manson living in the apartment upstairs? The Mongols across the street?

Most normal folk wouldn't, and that's part of the point of this - CMDR Scumbag, find somewhere else to go.

Of course, this is a Frontier implementation, so we do only get part of it at first, with other parts to follow later, so hopefully...


Criminal is a valid career choice, as much as anything else, and while there certainly should be consequences which have been sorely lacking, or laughable at best, there also needs to be some supporting infrastructure for it as well. Right now at most we have a Black Market where stolen and illegal goods can be sold. That's it.

I know Sandro mentioned going to great lengths to prevent folks from being able to "launder" hot ships - a concept I still find incredibly stupid, but what do I know? The Ship made me do it. However, I think someone advancing on a Criminal Career path should be able to "launder" a hot ship, even if just once a week, perhaps in exchange for Favors (Criminal Missions), and Criminals should be able to access Criminal features - a Black Market vendor of illicit goods, services and technology not available to law-abiding citizens.

Let's say I had a need for several grams of curare or tetrodotoxin, or both. These are not things one can simply purchase under normal circumstances, and for good reason. But with the right contacts, the right reputation, and no small amount of money, these things can be obtained. This same principle should apply to career Criminals in Elite - they can obtain things that cannot be obtained through normal channels, or are particularly difficult to obtain through normal channels. It's a valid avenue of game play, but one I don't expect to see touched in Beyond. Maybe in Back to Beyond ("Not-a-Season-4").

 

[NeilF]

You don't have access to anything.

Off to anarchy you go.

Are you sure? Not even the Black Market? If so, that's a major issue IMHO?

 

[NeilF]

Would you want an ISIS leader as a neighbor? Charlie Manson living in the apartment upstairs? The Mongols across the street?

Most normal folk wouldn't, and that's part of the point of this - CMDR Scumbag, find somewhere else to go.

Of course, this is a Frontier implementation, so we do only get part of it at first, with other parts to follow later, so hopefully...


Criminal is a valid career choice, as much as anything else, and while there certainly should be consequences which have been sorely lacking, or laughable at best, there also needs to be some supporting infrastructure for it as well. Right now at most we have a Black Market where stolen and illegal goods can be sold. That's it.

I know Sandro mentioned going to great lengths to prevent folks from being able to "launder" hot ships - a concept I still find incredibly stupid, but what do I know? The Ship made me do it. However, I think someone advancing on a Criminal Career path should be able to "launder" a hot ship, even if just once a week, perhaps in exchange for Favors (Criminal Missions), and Criminals should be able to access Criminal features - a Black Market vendor of illicit goods, services and technology not available to law-abiding citizens.

Let's say I had a need for several grams of curare or tetrodotoxin, or both. These are not things one can simply purchase under normal circumstances, and for good reason. But with the right contacts, the right reputation, and no small amount of money, these things can be obtained. This same principle should apply to career Criminals in Elite - they can obtain things that cannot be obtained through normal channels, or are particularly difficult to obtain through normal channels. It's a valid avenue of game play, but one I don't expect to see touched in Beyond. Maybe in Back to Beyond ("Not-a-Season-4").

That's a nice post. But how does it relate to the OP?

Anyhow - If Cmdr Eagleboy's post is correct, that if you anonymously log on to the Station Services, you even lose access to the Black Market, that to me seems like a major no no in outcome. ie: Is a significant unnecessary hurdle.

 

[Crank Larson]

Then what it says in the dictionary is wrong and you are right. Okay.

You mean the definition that comes back at the top of a search engine page? Was that the limit of your investigation? You might want to check a few different sources, as what you have quoted is a rather trite summary of what the black market is. Dare I say that Wikipedia has a good description, which happens to concur with my original description...

 

[CMDR-AD]

I'm thinking of two scenarios where for example I need to sell otherwise legal/non-stolen goods on a Black Market?
...
And I suspect there's a myriad more scenarios where it would just be nice to be able to sell non-stolen/non-illegal goods on the Black Market when you don't have access to the station's Commodity Market.

Yes, those are good example situations.

I realize that what I envision (sometimes getting a really lousy price offered, or even a NO SALE for certain goods) might mean some hassles here and there. But for me, the Black Market isn't really something I imagine as a convenience store. If a CMDR is having to deal off the legal market, they will have some problems. It's part of the price of their choices. It's part of what happens without some form of law and order regulating what that shady contact can get away with.

Largely, my imagination of this situation is really a 100% "flavor text" kind of thing. Imparting some sense that doing business with crooks and thieves is sometimes like a canister of Biowaste. Smelly, but still we sometimes haul it. A sort of "flavor" that maybe takes things a step beyond merely a reskinned Commodity Merket list.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You mean the definition that comes back at the top of a search engine page? Was that the limit of your investigation? You might want to check a few different sources, as what you have quoted is a rather trite summary of what the black market is. Dare I say that Wikipedia has a good description, which happens to concur with my original description...

Google Dictionary:
black market
noun
an illegal traffic or trade in officially controlled or scarce commodities.

Cambridge Dictionary
Black market
illegal trading of goods that are not allowed to be bought and sold, or that there are not enough of for everyone who wants them:

During the war, they bought food on the black market.
They blamed high taxes for the growth of a black market in cigarettes.

Collins Dictionary
black market in British
noun
1. a. any system in which goods or currencies are sold and bought illegally, esp in violation of controls or rationing

I can go on. Stolen goods can be pawned or fenced etc. Of course there could could be some stolen goods that can be sold on the black market if they meet the criterior. Most wouldn't and would just be sold off to the local fence at less then market value. Items to buy or sell on the black market would be stuff like drugs, ivory, onion head. Also stolen ivory, drugs and onion head could also be sold on the black market.

Do I need to go on.

 

[NeilF]

Note...

One day one of beta, I'm going to a station with a fine/bounty, and if I then cannot sell my cargo, even though there's a black market, I'll raise a ticket

Yes I think the matter is that black and white and needlessly problematic/erroneous

 

[DaveB]

Rational.

In fact, if the black market is there in spite of station officialdoms wishes (which it is, or it wouldn't be black) why stop there? Have the black market accessible even during lockdown and be able to sell legal goods that you could otherwise dispose of on the (closed) legal market. Of course, black market activity is, by definition, criminal activity and would prolong the lockdown....

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

I'd like to suggest a potential small change to Beyond's mechanics - If you have legal (non-stolen) cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market.


If I've understood, if you have a fine/bounty and arrive at a station, you can find yourself unable to use many of its facilities, eg: The Commodity Market.

First and foremost, I'd hope that you can still sell stolen & illegal goods (I originally only put "illegal" but meant "stolen" as well) on the Black Market (if there is one). If this facility is also removed, that would be a mistake IMHO.

If you have any legal good, and cannot access the Commodity Market, you should simply then be able to sell them on the Black Market too (obviously at the same/lower price than the Commodity Market).


This is a small change in my mind, but means if you have legal cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market. eg: You are a pirate and have legal cargo. Or you hand in a mission and are given commodities.

This seems simple, logical and easy to add IMHO.



Scale Of The Change?
Could be as simple as when your list of cargo for the black market is shown... Currently:-

IF (cargo.stolen = "YES" OR cargo.state= "ILLEGAL") show on black market​

After my proposal:-

IF (cargo.stolen = "YES" OR cargo.state = "ILLEGAL" OR station.facilities = "OFF") show on Black Market​

^ A very simple logic change. So could be as simple as something like that, maybe with a secondary condition around its price if legal. Maybe with a bit of update on the UI to show its state (not-stolen, not-illegal) etc.

So...

You want a loophole so you can carry on playing the game if you're a criminal? ...

 

[FrogsFriend]

I'm confused. As I understand it you'll be able to go to any station you're not Wanted at, including any Anarchy controlled station, and sell your goods there. Why do you need to sell them at stations where you're Wanted?

 

[WR3ND]

I wouldn't think most people go to the black market to buy legal commodities. But other than that, sure, might be something that would make some sense working in one way or another.