Still as Inconvenient as Possible to Play

[Iskariot]

With all the changes - and the Chieftain - on the way, I figured now would be a good time to take another look. Especially since I was excited to learn about a combat CG. In a High Tech, Empire system, no less.So I fly there. Only 3 jumps from my home base. Figured I would buy a combat ship when I get there. I mean...high tech. And Empire. Maybe grab a Courier. Or Imp Eagle...But no. Of course not. Neither of these are available. Nor are Vultures. so I alt+tab out...try and remember the name of the website I normally use to find information Frontier should have made available in the game literally years ago...and then I have a sudden realization:Its Friday night, and instead of playing a game, I am looking stuff up on a website, trying to get to a point where I CAN play.Then I logged out, and loaded up a game that actually WANTS me to enjoy it. I just thought I would come here and leave this. In the admittedly vain hope it will make a difference. Enough is enough with the intentional obfuscation of information. The deliberate inconvenience. I can order a car online in the 21st century. And yet in Elite...I cant even see what ships a station has for sale without flying there. Its patently absurd, the degree to which technology has apparently regressed in the Elite universe. Not to mention: Its intentional inconvenience for the sake of inflating time spent "playing" the game. Let me know when FDev actually care whether we enjoy this mess of disparate, unrelated mechanics masquerading (badly) as a game.Also...I would love to use paragraphs on the forum again. Alas, in Chrome at least this is apparently no longer possible.

Why would your post not make a difference as you assume?
FDev have proven on countless occasions that they listen to the community.

It is not unthinkable that they will implement a system for finding what type of ships or modules are sold in a station that is comparable to what is going to be implemented for trading.

 

[Alodia]

Indeed, FDev is making headway on the kind of solution you're talking about. Thursday's livestream detailed in-game trade tools, and the Q4 update will be adding the Codex, which is both a journal of where you've been and a source of in-game lore and information. It's coming, but they've got a lot they're working on all at once. My biggest concern is "how big will the Q1 update be in terms of download size, and if that's the small update compared to Q4, how big is THAT one?"

Yeah, the codex sounds like a solution to a lot of issues. My concern with that one is ordering of released content- looking at the rollout list it feels like codex would have been invaluable if placed sooner rather than later but I assume the devs have chosen this order because it's most optimal for them.

I'll say this much, the trading update isn't what I was hoping for in terms of ships but it's a definite plus point - both for traders and, perhaps, those wanting to indulge in a spot of piracy

 

[CMDR pollycough]

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

The lack of information in ED bugs me too, OP.

I once set myself a simple little task.

Find a 4A Fuel Scoop for my FDL, without using any out of game tools.

First stop, high-tech System, based on the assumption that they might have one.

Nope.

Another station in the same system.

Nope.

Next high tech system.

Nope.

Checked all stations in said system.

Nope.

My FDL still has a 4B fuel scoop. Lol

IMHO, when browsing items(and ships) the controlling faction of the station should also have an accurate list of modules and ships available in other stations they control, and a less accurate list for stations they only have a presence in.

So say an FDL isn't available at my current station, but is at another owned by the faction, instead of simply not showing, it'll say "out of stock, available at station X in system Y, Z ly away"

Ideally, with the option of remote purchase, with say a +10% fee. But that's not essential.

That'd solve pretty much most of the ship and module shopping issues, bar limited module storage.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Oss133]

I can haz ur stu...

Can I haz ur stuff then?

DAMN!

 

[Noobilite]

Isn't kind of reasonable to have some sort of a trade network for people to find your goods. It must be kind of bad for business if nobody can figure out where to guy or sell before going somewhere? What are the RP reasons for the lack of space internet or things basically required for business?! Are there billboards all over stations saying what system to visit to purchase goods currently? What type of trade infrastructure exists in the fiction?! the original was from the 80's and I could see it reflecting that, but it had games made in the 90's too and I would imagine it added them or similar.. Or has Elite always been low tech trading? I know from videos there are very large trade vehicles in the universe fiction... So, how did they do business?

 

[Alodia]

Isn't kind of reasonable to have some sort of a trade network for people to find your goods. It must be kind of bad for business if nobody can figure out where to guy or sell before going somewhere? What are the RP reasons for the lack of space internet or things basically required for business?! Are there billboards all over stations saying what system to visit to purchase goods currently? What type of trade infrastructure exists in the fiction?! the original was from the 80's and I could see it reflecting that, but it had games made in the 90's too and I would imagine it added them or similar.. Or has Elite always been low tech trading? I know from videos there are very large trade vehicles in the universe fiction... So, how did they do business?

might surprise some of the folks I disagree with on this one in terms of how important they consider this to be, but I too used to not really care about tabbing into websites. it was only when I got an IRL friend into the game who's in a wheelchair and can play fine but needs assistance getting his headset on and off that I thought, well, actually yeah this is not as optimal for some players. he often feels like a hassle for his relative for asking them to pop his headset off so much, and then *I* started playing in vr and was like, if this annoys *me* so much it must be quite a drain for him. as a result, I'm pretty passionate about this as something that could - and needs to be - improved.

I doubt I'll see eye to eye on this with everybody here, but I do think the trade shakeup could lead to a solution that works for everyone where not having to tab out so much is concerned.

 

[Noobilite]

My point was a part of normal trading are things like fuel efficiency. Unless all traders use fuel scoops for all trade it's a loss of profits to mess up travel times... It depends on the environment though. But even with fuel scoops there could be loss of opportunity. So time and knowledge are important for profit from an RP standpoint. The game may not have mechanics in it for NPC's to use, or it may be they have auto knowledge of the location to go, but from a standpoint of realism in the environment it might be important for it to exist. This is regardless of the current game mechanics. The point of an MMO should be to create a living breathing world. But, yea convenience for circumstances like that would be massively important, especially to individuals in his circumstances. Which is all the more reason to add those things in game. I would imagine if they looked at how the fiction should work there would be means to deal with this on all sides. I just assume the game is not developed that much at this point. But that brings up a good reason to add that sort of thing if that is a hindrance to some players.

 

[Cmdr Esteban]

In attempting to read the OP, I realised that the internet forum world needs a new abbreviation to supplement the lauded "TL;DR" (too long; didn't read).

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: NP;DR.

No paragraphing; didn't read.

 

[nanite2000]

I love the fact that Blackcompany evidently logs on to the game every few weeks, becomes instantly infuriated, rants about it on the forum, and then disappears for a few more weeks before repeating the whole process.

Like a drug addict, Elite is his reward, and it is also his punishment.

Let me know when FDev actually care whether we enjoy this mess of disparate, unrelated mechanics masquerading (badly) as a game.

Let us know when you've finally found something different to play, so we're all spared your incessant whining.

 

[Noobilite]

In attempting to read the OP, I realised that the internet forum world needs a new abbreviation to supplement the lauded "TL;DR" (too long; didn't read).

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: NP;DR.

No paragraphing; didn't read.

There isn't enough there to technically have paragraphs. It is basically one proper paragraph...

I love the fact that Blackcompany evidently logs on to the game every few weeks, becomes instantly infuriated, rants about it on the forum, and then disappears for a few more weeks before repeating the whole process.

Like a drug addict, Elite is his reward, and it is also his punishment.



Let us know when you've finally found something different to play, so we're all spared your incessant whining.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that. It is proper feedback. It's honesty and something to consider. It was very normal at one point in gaming/software history. And was considered fundamental. It's not being able to take the criticism that is the problem. In an ideal environment you want as much as possible. And that used to actually exist.

Half of this is coming from players that are not familiar enough with how programming and similar fields work and need to work. Hopefully it's not the people working in it. That would be very bad.. But if one is going the other probably is relatively also. Which is sad and will dent development of games in general over time.

Criticisms is important. Especially in this sort of thing. The measure is how you deal with it. If you use it and thrive off of it you are doing well. If you struggle with it and are angry it means very bad things. And it is a literally measure of ability. Which is why it used to be so prized and desired. That is why if you go back far enough nobody on the internet complained about criticism. They expected it. So did game developers and software writers. Our current environment is not going anywhere good. You can't even openly speak out about this sort of thing in a full manner. People are offended. That means the environment is flooded with people with a lack of experience and knowledge. This dents the development of knowledge among individuals among other things over time. Which in turn lowers the level of ability to produce things like games.

So, consider that.

BTW, I'm massively understating this because I can't without people being massively offended. That is as sick of an environment as it gets. And it will be getting worse. If you don't know how to make the things around you cannot understand what is important and what is not.

 

[Cmdr Esteban]

There isn't enough there to technically have paragraphs. It is basically one proper paragraph...

Ah, so the length of text dictates whether or not a tract should be separated into paragraphs...



And you use the word 'proper' in a most amusing way.

 

[Noobilite]

Ah, so the length of text dictates whether or not a tract should be separated into paragraphs...



And you use the word 'proper' in a most amusing way.

He's basically telling a story. There isn't really a place to cut it down.. It's one congruent thought. Where would he break it up?

And he said something about chrome stopping him from using paragraphs...

 

[S3B4ST13N]

With the change coming to trading that let's you see what other systems (you have visited) are selling, I'm hoping Frontier will implement something similar across the board .. eg: Visit a Shipyard, list ALL of the ships in the game and for those that aren't available, have the screen display all the systems (that you have visited) that DO have that ship and their buying cost by order of most recent.

 

[nanite2000]

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that. It is proper feedback. It's honesty and something to consider. It was very normal at one point in gaming/software history. And was considered fundamental. It's not being able to take the criticism that is the problem. In an ideal environment you want as much as possible. And that used to actually exist.

I agree that criticism should be welcomed. But criticism without suggesting any improvement is just ranting/whining. And if you do have a suggetion for improvement, there's a forum for exactly that:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php/76-Suggestions-amp-Feature-Requests

But Blackcompany's posts need to be taken into context with his posting history. I'd recommend you read it sometime - it's more depressing than a Leonard Cohen album.

 

[Noobilite]

criticism doesn't need to come with a solution.. That is the devs job. They specialize in game design. Either way probably slowly floating off topic. Although this is sort of on topic for the post.

 

[Kaocraft]

Except...it IS completely implausible. At the least, the inability to find ships at stations close to your current system is ridiculous. If this were impossible in the game universe, economies couldnt exist. Each system would be its own island, either entirely self sufficient in all of its needs...or doomed to failure because it could not communicate its needs to a wider economy.Literally nothing about the in game economy or its markets makes any sense. Least of all this.

Each system is its own island. That's why courier missions matter, it's why traders are so important, and it's why you can't just access a giant up-to-date list of every commodity price at every location in the galaxy. This is Age of Sail logistics with a scifi theme.

 

[TartanDragon]

I can haz ur stu...



DAMN!

What stuff does he haz to have....Apparently he can't find anything!!!1!

 

[Kaocraft]

And yet we have telepresence and messaging across the galaxy. OP is right.

Now that doesn't mean I want Frontier to mimic the work of 3PD. I don't have confidence they will get it right (remember powerplay, engineers, multi-crew, missions,...). Instead we need an API and tools so 3PD information can displayed in-game.

If a 3PD goes out of business, so to speak, then Frontier can think about inhouse development or incentivizing another developer.

Except telepresence is a dumb retcon made out of desperation to lampshade some kooky game design decisions, and the instant messaging is a more benign form of something similar, or, if you prefer it can be regarded as a pure game design convenience. The game didnt always have instant messaging - it used to be that ships would fly up to you in Supercruise and deliver the messages personally. The people currently in charge of the game do not understand the foundational vision behind Elite, or they no longer care about it the way they used to.

So there are big contradictions now, which gives people like yourself some rhetorical ammunition to say that things should be like X or Y. But clearly some of the recent additions to the game, and even the lore, *have* to be disregarded. And the way you figure out which things to disregard, is by looking at whichever quirk of the scenario design produces the *most* contradictions.

If you accept the general idea of Elite as an Age of Sail metaphor, where ships (and only ships) travel faster than light but everything else is restricted by real world physics; then the only things that glaringly *dont* make sense are Telepresence, Space email, and Materials/Synthesis system, all of which are recent additions. (Made by people who aren't all that interested in Space, Science, or Elite lore). If you accept those things as an integral part of the in-fiction lore, then *nothing* about the game world makes sense. Spaceships shouldn't even have pilots at that point, never mind all the other title things Blackcompany was complaining about.

 

[robbyp]

To clarify, frontier is providing lots of support for 3rd party apps now, as they realise we provide gearing for their Dev efforts. They do a bit, we amplify their results by providing free 3rd party tools.

The websites cost money to run,so it's legit for them to do advertising and ask for donations.

Our little tool, which feeds those websites, do not accept any donations as we don't have any cost involved in running it.

Every game has 3rd party websites and too!s, except for those which noone cares about!