the new engineer system for dummies

It's also worth noting - and forgive me for missing this - but I don't see too many solid alternatives to this system. So, let's say you could do G5s straight away like you currently can once you have engineer rep - because of the new engineering system, that means all you would need are these 4-10 rolls to take a module from unengineered to god-rolled. That's too short in my books, so some sort of investment barrier is needed.

I agree, that's the only reason that justifies the need to progress through G1-G5 for every module to me.
However, imho linear progress is the wrong way of keeping people from reaching their uber-ships too quickly.
It will still result in way too many top-end ships populating the bubble.
I'd rather prefer an exponential approach.

Answer to this is to have a rapid curve. Allow players to either go directly to low level Grade 5 (once it is unlocked) or to very quickly go from G1 to G5 with one roll per grade. And then have an increased number of rolls in the G5 category, i.e. 10 to 15 rolls to go from Low level G5 to top end G5.
This would mean higher material requirements for those chasing top end G5, but it would still be significantly lower than the current system. Meanwhile those players who are not interested in god rolls could get a low end G5 without having to jump through hoops.

I agree with the first bit: Let people go directly to low level Grade 5 (once unlocked) or to very quickly go from G1 to G5 with one roll per grade.
After that I'd either exponentially slow down the progress made per roll or increase the materials required per roll the closer it gets to the max.
Like bladebss I think it's important that it's still possible to improve a module for a long time if you're ready to spend the effort or if you just happen to have the spare materials.
I'd even add a decimal place for the stats to allow for very tiny improvements close to the max.
Think of modern race cars: Even in high end racing the cars aren't entirely on par despite all the money and engineering know-how they throw at it. The last fraction of a percent is always the most expensive one and it should be the same when engineering our ships.

I could support the new system if they implemented something like this to make sure low level G5 modules stay reasonable and top-end modules stay very rare.
 
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I'll speak for myself and maybe it will help you understand:

I didn't need and never sought after "god rolls". I would roll until I got a "pretty good" roll and move on. I'd usually get a "pretty good" roll in 1-5 tries.

I'm not someone who's interested in min-maxing, and I'd be playing another game before spending enough time to do 1,000 rolls in Elite: Dangerous.

For everyone who didn't care about "top spec G5" and really just wanted a decent G5, this is a huge increase in time required. HUGE. Before all you had to do was get an engineer to G5 and all of your internals on any ship you own could be G5'd as soon as you had the mats to do it. Now? You functionally have to start from scratch for every module you ever want to upgrade, on an individual basis.

This means an order of magnitude more time committed per ship after the first ship is done compared to the current system. For people that own many ships, the prospect of upgrading all of them like we were able to do under the current system becomes shocking.

Sorry, but this change sucks for everyone that owns more than a few ships or that does not have an obsessive-compulsive disorder that requires them to min-max in order to ever be happy.

Imagine if you owned 20 ships that you wanted to G5 just the engines on. Think about how long the new system would take you vs the current system. I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

I'll try it once with maybe one of the new ships being added, but I don't see any way this isn't a giant increase in lifetime required to G5 a fleet of ships, even if mats are marginally easier to find/acquire than under the current system. I can G5 an entire ship 5 or 6 hours right now. I am skeptical that will remain true going forward.

I guess this is the end game?

1000% agreed. It sucks for a lot of us casual players.
 
I agree with the first bit: Let people go directly to low level Grade 5 or to very quickly go from G1 to G5 with one roll per grade.
After that I'd either exponentially slow down the progress made per roll or increase the materials required per roll the closer it gets to the max.
As stated by bladebss I think it's important that it's still possible to improve a module for a long time if you're ready to spend the effort or if you just happen to have the spare materials.
I'd even add a decimal place for the stats to allow for very tiny improvements close to the max.
Think of modern race cars: Even in high end racing the cars aren't entirely on par despite all the money and engineering know-how they throw at it. The last fraction of a percent is always the most expensive one and it should be the same when engineering our ships.

I could support the new system if they implemented something like this to make sure low level G5 modules stay reasonable and top-end modules stay very rare.

Using mat's as a "currency", (based on the rates of exchange they plan on implementing), it could be, theoretically, possible to "buy" your way through the entire process using a single G5 mat', or a couple of G4 mat's, or 5 G3 mat's.

In doing so, you'd actually be handing over mat's of greater value than what you'd expend during the level-up process.

Trouble is, it seems like Sandro just flat-out does not want people to be able to fast-track through the levels because he seems to think the new system will force people to upgrade their ship gradually, over a period of weeks.
 
OK for me to upgrade a New FSD to Increased range G5 I would need to collect materials for 10 rolls to make sure i get a ok roll

for G5 Thats
10x Arsenic
10x Chemical Manipulators
10x Datamined Wake Exceptions

Total 30 materials

Sweet I am guaranteed a good roll With 5 Rolls with the new system
That is just
5x Arsenic
5x Chemical Manipulators
5x Datamined Wake Exceptions

Total 15 materials
Sweet that is half of what I need now

Oh No Wait a moment I Have to do Max 5 of each lesser Grade to get to G5 on a new FSD

So i need to collect How many materials lets start counting
For G1 blueprint I need
5x Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes

Total Mats for this grade 5

For G2 blueprint I need
5x Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes
5x Chemical Processors

Total Mats for this grade 10

For G3 blueprint I need
5x Chemical Processors
5x Phosphorus
5x Strange Wake Solutions

Total Mats for this grade 15

For G4 blueprint I need
5x Chemical Distillery
5x Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories
5x Manganese

Total Mats for this grade 15

Finally I can apply the G5 blueprint I want
5x Arsenic
5x Chemical Manipulators
5x Datamined Wake Exceptions

Total Mats for this grade 15
Lets have a look at the numbers

30 Materials for the System we have now
60 Materials For the new system

that is double the materials needed & I am not going to count the time required to collect them
 
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OK for me to upgrade a New FSD to Increased range G5 I would need to collect materials for 10 rolls to make sure i get a ok roll

for G5 Thats
10x Arsenic
10x Chemical Manipulators
10x Datamined Wake Exceptions

Total 30 materials

Sweet I am guaranteed a good roll With 5 Rolls with the new system
That is just
5x Arsenic
5x Chemical Manipulators
5x Datamined Wake Exceptions

Total 15 materials
Sweet that is half of what I need now

Oh No Wait a moment I Have to do Max 5 of each lesser Grade to get to G5 on a new FSD

So i need to collect How many materials lets start counting
For G1 blueprint I need
5x Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes

Total Mats for this grade 5

For G2 blueprint I need
5x Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes
5x Chemical Processors

Total Mats for this grade 10

For G3 blueprint I need
5x Chemical Processors
5x Phosphorus
5x Strange Wake Solutions

Total Mats for this grade 15

For G4 blueprint I need
5x Chemical Distillery
5x Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories
5x Manganese

Total Mats for this grade 15

Finally I can apply the G5 blueprint I want
5x Arsenic
5x Chemical Manipulators
5x Datamined Wake Exceptions

Total Mats for this grade 15
Lets have a look at the numbers

30 Materials for the System we have now
60 Materials For the new system

that is double the materials needed & I am not going to count the time required to collect them


It's called more engaging gameplay, aka timesink, aka grind, aka bound to get boring.
 
Question - do we know for certain that the blueprints haven't changed? One problem I observe with the forced progression from level 1 to 5 is the overlapping material requirements. For example, if grades 1-3 of a modification require "Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes", that's a whole lot of ADWEs we'll be burning through. If, however, the blueprints have changed and now each grade requires something different (no duplicate dependencies), at least that would reduce the overlap and perhaps makes the new system "suck less".
 
Question - do we know for certain that the blueprints haven't changed? One problem I observe with the forced progression from level 1 to 5 is the overlapping material requirements. For example, if grades 1-3 of a modification require "Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes", that's a whole lot of ADWEs we'll be burning through. If, however, the blueprints have changed and now each grade requires something different (no duplicate dependencies), at least that would reduce the overlap and perhaps makes the new system "suck less".

I would say the opposite.

Overlap in material requirements means overlap in material collecting.

I'd rather collect 20 of material A than 10 each of material B and material C
 
Of course we will use up more materials, considering we will have a lot more storage space for it and have a materials trader which can condense surplus stock/spread out material between storage slots.

You may spend more time looking for materials but your time spend will be more productive. It has more positive reinforcement as you no longer (or less likely to) find complete duds along the way.
 
Exactly my thoughts.
The grind will just shift from gathering materials for a couple grade 5 rolls to gathering a lot more materials for a couple grade 5 rolls.
I can't see any longterm improvement here but then again I'm not a game developer.

My take: They are prepping for Free to Play. Now you will need enough Materials per module, that selling Mat Drop Boosters, Free Roll Tokens, etc in the Store will be plausible...

Other than that...this isnt an improvement. At all. Which is about what I expected FDEV to come up with: Another grind that doesnt improve anything. Given their track record, it was a safe bet.
 
Although I dabbled ungrading a number of modules at the start I only Engineers FSD and Thrusters now so mabye I should stock up on a number of Grade 5 FSD's and Thruster's for different sized slots and store them, then I'm covered :)

Anyone know what sized FSD and Thruster the Chieftain uses ?
 
I would say the opposite.

Overlap in material requirements means overlap in material collecting.

I'd rather collect 20 of material A than 10 each of material B and material C

Hmmm... I suppose so. I was thinking about how much I dislike chasing and scanning wake signatures, but I also dislike chasing and shooting rocks in my SRV...
 
Hmmm... I suppose so. I was thinking about how much I dislike chasing and scanning wake signatures, but I also dislike chasing and shooting rocks in my SRV...

With the material trader, that scanning and mining will be not as frustrating anymore. All those 'wrong' materials can now be traded for something more worthwhile or be needed for something else anyway. They're not using up precious storage space. Every wake scan and rock fragment will be at least somewhat worthwhile.
 
With the material trader, that scanning and mining will be not as frustrating anymore. All those 'wrong' materials can now be traded for something more worthwhile or be needed for something else anyway. They're not using up precious storage space. Every wake scan and rock fragment will be at least somewhat worthwhile.

You can also just spend time collecting the G5 material in whatever tree you need and cascade down from there. Say, you find a material twice (each material gives you a yield of 3 and can be exchanged for 3 of the grade below)

That gives you 6 G5s.
Take 2 and convert to 6 G4s.
Take 2 and convert to 6 G3s
Take 2 and convert to 6 G2s
Take 2 and convert to 6 G1s

So from two pieces of G5 material/data, you can end up with
4x G5
4x G4
4x G3
4x G2
6x G1

So instead of having to gather materials for every single mod you want, just spend time gathering G5s and use that to create the paltry amounts needed to rank up 1 through 5
 
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With the material trader, that scanning and mining will be not as frustrating anymore. All those 'wrong' materials can now be traded for something more worthwhile or be needed for something else anyway. They're not using up precious storage space. Every wake scan and rock fragment will be at least somewhat worthwhile.

the problem i see with the material brokers is you will trade something for a G4-G5 Blueprint only to find you traded things you needed to get the G1-G3 blueprint & you have to get them again! before you can upgrade
 
the problem i see with the material brokers is you will trade something for a G4-G5 Blueprint only to find you traded things you needed to get the G1-G3 blueprint & you have to get them again! before you can upgrade

That's not a problem with the broker, that's a problem with your planning. I don't remember from the stream, but I'm guessing pinning a blueprint will allow you to check on all grades for your needed materials before going through the materials trader. And you can go backwards again without loss, IIRC.
 
the problem i see with the material brokers is you will trade something for a G4-G5 Blueprint only to find you traded things you needed to get the G1-G3 blueprint & you have to get them again! before you can upgrade

That we even NEED a Mat Broker in the first place is a problem. Its an open admission that materials grinding is a miserable facade trying in vain to cover a lack of content. That its even necessary is a travesty.

That this new system doesnt actually make anything better is even worse.
 
3-5 rolls, per grade, per module.

It's ultimately much longer than before, vastly more work for you 30-minute a week gamers. You're looking at a minimum of 15 rolls per module, 25 if you roll garbage, and a whole lot more material consumption.

Even with a nice garbage collector ship like I run around in, filling up on materials to the new limit is going to take quite a bit of time as well - with material caps pushed to 100 of each item, that's 34 collections of each item type to fill. Given the already painful process of locating certain materials, such as those spawned only in High Grade Signal Sources, In Anarchy system, In Boom, when the Primary star is in alignment with the tertiary star and the planets are in retrograde... this is going to mean dozens of dozens of trips to materials and data brokers to trade up, at a loss of course, to fill bins that will be emptied every 4-5 modules upgraded.

We're finally getting some EVE-style grind. Happy now EVE people?
 
OK for me to upgrade a New FSD to Increased range G5 I would need to collect materials for 10 rolls to make sure i get a ok roll

for G5 Thats
10x Arsenic
10x Chemical Manipulators
10x Datamined Wake Exceptions

Total 30 materials

Sweet I am guaranteed a good roll With 5 Rolls with the new system
That is just
5x Arsenic
5x Chemical Manipulators
5x Datamined Wake Exceptions

Total 15 materials
Sweet that is half of what I need now

Oh No Wait a moment I Have to do Max 5 of each lesser Grade to get to G5 on a new FSD

So i need to collect How many materials lets start counting
For G1 blueprint I need
5x Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes

Total Mats for this grade 5

For G2 blueprint I need
5x Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes
5x Chemical Processors

Total Mats for this grade 10

For G3 blueprint I need
5x Chemical Processors
5x Phosphorus
5x Strange Wake Solutions

Total Mats for this grade 15

For G4 blueprint I need
5x Chemical Distillery
5x Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories
5x Manganese

Total Mats for this grade 15

Finally I can apply the G5 blueprint I want
5x Arsenic
5x Chemical Manipulators
5x Datamined Wake Exceptions

Total Mats for this grade 15
Lets have a look at the numbers

30 Materials for the System we have now
60 Materials For the new system

that is double the materials needed & I am not going to count the time required to collect them

Your conclusion is hideously flawed for 2 reasons.

First.

Collecting arsenic by driving arojnd on a planet you will fins an excess of the other 2 more common materials

Collecting chemicql manipulators. Probably shooting t9s in a famine anarchy system? They also drop distilleries and processors in greater numbers.

Scanning for datamined wakea? Oh wait you get loads of other wakes.

If anything this decreasea time to get the g5s too as you can trade some up.

Alternatively if you get 2 more of each of arsenic, manipulators, datamined you could trade those down for an excess of the lower materials needed.

Making 7 vs 10 so fewer materials under new system.

Also thirdly. The new g5 max will be better than current.

Additional to the additonal i can see now people are claiming it ia now 3-5 if not more to do each level when the stated design is 2.9 on average. But carry on making stuff up to support a good moan.
 
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That's not a problem with the broker, that's a problem with your planning. I don't remember from the stream, but I'm guessing pinning a blueprint will allow you to check on all grades for your needed materials before going through the materials trader. And you can go backwards again without loss, IIRC.

Bad memory more then bad planning lol
hope your correct with pinning a blueprint pins the set not just Grade X
 
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