Horizons Atmospheric landings?

[rootsrat]

Will there be atmospheric landings this year?

My guess is no, but we'll get it next year. This is pure speculation on my side, but:

1) They have some of the required tech already. See Planet Coaster and upcoming JWE. Atmosphere, weather systems, varied fauna and flora... All you need for Earth-likes. Seems like those games, while really good ones standalone projects (well, PC at least - honestly, I can't recommend it enough!), were kind of a testing ground for the atmospheric tech
2) David Braben was hinting (with visible enthusiasm) about flying into the atmospheres of gas giants, possible gameplay elements in there, creatures that may be lurking in the storms etc.
3) It seems a natural next step and progression after Horizons and what we got in Beyond.
4) It's one of the 2 big expansions promised in Kickstarter and there is no way we're getting space legs, because:
5) They always said that space legs are far away. They used to say that about atmospheric planet landings, but they've stopped saying that recently about the latter

Again, this is pure speculation on my side.

So, 2019 - Elite Dangerous Season 4: The Atmospheres?

 

[Lightspeed]

I always thought "Glide Mode" is a preparation for atmospheric landings. Substitute red color for the blue, and you have re-entry conditions Add a bit of buffeting, depending on the atmosphere, and that's about it.

 

[ChipStar65]

Substitute red color for the blue, and you have re-entry conditions...

Well, only if you use a lot of handwavium. The extremely hot, ionized gases that surround a re-entering vehicle, be it an Apollo-type capsule or a shuttle-like craft with some aerodynamics, is virtually opaque, there would be zero visibility for a substantial portion of the atmo entry. The blue haze from Glide Mode is very weak tea by comparison.

I've wondered since my first planetoid landing what Glide Mode is all about, anyway, other than as a mechanic for shifting the game from one frame of reference to another, like dropping out of warp. It really makes no sense if the point is to be physically accurate. But hey, it's a game, right?

 

[popuptoaster]

You only need to come in hot if you have to aero-brake due to lack of power, EDs ships have huge amounts of power at their disposal, they'd just slow down enough not to cause the atmosphere to create a fireball around the ship. Even if you wanted to get down fast in an emergency the shields would hardly notice, the amount of friction energy (if there is any at all) created by gas molecules rubbing past the shields is nothing compared to the huge energy that weapons fire pumps into them.

 

[ChipStar65]

You only need to come in hot if you have to aero-brake due to lack of power, EDs ships have huge amounts of power at their disposal, they'd just slow down enough not to cause the atmosphere to create a fireball around the ship. Even if you wanted to get down fast in an emergency the shields would hardly notice, the amount of friction energy (if there is any at all) created by gas molecules rubbing past the shields is nothing compared to the huge energy that weapons fire pumps into them.

Well, if you toss orbital mechanics out the window and invoke tons of handwavium, you might come close to being able to do this. Orbits require a certain velocity to maintain a certain altitude -- the slower, the lower. As you slow down, you lose altitude, so even at relatively slow speeds you drop into thick atmosphere faster than shields could easily handle (given their performance in burning stations). Progressive aerobraking to relieve that problem requires a great deal of time as it has to be done in small increments, and can still generate a lot of heat. Slow down too much and you drop like a stone, and stones that do that (meteors) burn up. Re-entry temperatures from friction are upwards of 3000deg K, as hot as the surface of some red dwarf stars, and the heat envelopes the ship for a substantial amount of time (Apollo LOS due to re-entry ionization lasted around 4 minutes), whereas weapons concentrate their energy on a small spot, and can still break down shields in a matter of tens of seconds. Not sure what tech is used in ship weaponry but there is a lot of handwavium going on there as well, unless the power output is actually less than most might assume. Too much "TV learning" about that subject .

I'm not saying atmo landings aren't a possibility, just that they present considerable hurdles if preserving a semblance of physical reality is the goal, which I assume is part of the dev's design philosophy. But, as it is a game and not a full-out sim, I'm sure many interesting and fun compromises can be worked out. I for one am looking forward to it.

 

[popuptoaster]

Well, if you toss orbital mechanics out the window and invoke tons of handwavium, you might come close to being able to do this. Orbits require a certain velocity to maintain a certain altitude -- the slower, the lower. As you slow down, you lose altitude, so even at relatively slow speeds you drop into thick atmosphere faster than shields could easily handle (given their performance in burning stations). Progressive aerobraking to relieve that problem requires a great deal of time as it has to be done in small increments, and can still generate a lot of heat. Slow down too much and you drop like a stone, and stones that do that (meteors) burn up. Re-entry temperatures from friction are upwards of 3000deg K, as hot as the surface of some red dwarf stars, and the heat envelopes the ship for a substantial amount of time (Apollo LOS due to re-entry ionization lasted around 4 minutes), whereas weapons concentrate their energy on a small spot, and can still break down shields in a matter of tens of seconds. Not sure what tech is used in ship weaponry but there is a lot of handwavium going on there as well, unless the power output is actually less than most might assume. Too much "TV learning" about that subject .

I'm not saying atmo landings aren't a possibility, just that they present considerable hurdles if preserving a semblance of physical reality is the goal, which I assume is part of the dev's design philosophy. But, as it is a game and not a full-out sim, I'm sure many interesting and fun compromises can be worked out. I for one am looking forward to it.

ED ships do not "drop like stones" they can hover hands of perfectly safely above very high G planets, Ed ships have enough power they don't need to orbit so you can toss orbital mechanics out of any window you like.

A rocket can get up into space by going straight up it just lacks the endurance to keep going and break free of our planets gravity well without picking up enough lateral speed to get into orbit, ALL the ships in ED can just fly straight up and away from any astronomical body in the game.

They can approach any planet (or star/black hole) in game and just stop relative to the planet without falling downwards, as i say, they don't need to aero brake, with the power they have available they can literally just stop moving and let themselves sink down towards the planet at whatever speed they like.

 

[ChipStar65]

And they do all this because they carry massive amounts of handwavium to fuel their imaginative aberrations from actual physical norms. Which is not a bad thing, as it is just a game, not even close to a true simulation. But in that case, why is atmo landing even a problem? Just wave away the physics and you can just pop right in and ignore all the hoopla, no sweat.

 

[popuptoaster]

And they do all this because they carry massive amounts of handwavium to fuel their imaginative aberrations from actual physical norms. Which is not a bad thing, as it is just a game, not even close to a true simulation. But in that case, why is atmo landing even a problem? Just wave away the physics and you can just pop right in and ignore all the hoopla, no sweat.

There is no handwavium in my post, simple fact is the game designers have given the ships sufficient power not to require aero braking and that means there is no "handwavium" required for atmospheric landings at all, unless FD decide the main thrusters only work in a vacuum, atmospheric flight will be a huge let down unless you are going at mach 7 and trying to melt your hull on purpose.

The ships can be brick shaped, have no lift or aerodynamic stability or control and still get to fly just fine simply due to having so much power they don't need to fly in the traditional sense.

 

[ChipStar65]

The ships can be brick shaped, have no lift or aerodynamic stability or control and still get to fly just fine simply due to having so much power they don't need to fly in the traditional sense.

That is the essence of handwavium. Power does not overcome all physical obstacles to atmospheric flight, and generating the kind of power you claim is in itself in a huge exercise of imagination. Which is just fine for a game. But if power can overcome it all, and ships can be given a near-infinite amount of power, why are we still not landing on atmo planets? Just graphical considerations? That would be a tremendous let-down.

 

[PuffyEichhorst]

He means landing on planetoids with atmospheres. That should be a hoot give the configuration of many of the ships. Seems like they look good but probably fly like bricks when in some kind of air. Not a lifting body among them.

Would love to see the face of a T9 pilot entering the atmosphere....i mean i wouldn’t go that far to call it flying...

 

[popuptoaster]

That is the essence of handwavium. Power does not overcome all physical obstacles to atmospheric flight, and generating the kind of power you claim is in itself in a huge exercise of imagination. Which is just fine for a game. But if power can overcome it all, and ships can be given a near-infinite amount of power, why are we still not landing on atmo planets? Just graphical considerations? That would be a tremendous let-down.

I assume English is not you first language? You seem to be having difficulty grasping what we are talking about.

FD gave the ships huge amounts of power, this is demonstrated within the game in multiple ways there is no handwavium in that sentence, it's all fact. Handwavium is only required if you try to explain HOW the ships have so much power and that is not what we are discussing.

The excess power the ships in game posses, does, in fact allow you to ignore all the atmospheric obstacle that we are discussing, in this game, a fully loaded cargo cutter can stop and hover at any altitude (without establishing an orbit), above any astronomical object in game and stay there using the power of its engines.

These ships do not need to use speed to fly and THAT means they can ignore atmosphere, they don't need to generate lift or control from aerodynamics, they can move in any direction or simply stop where they are, they can even flip themselves upside down and still hover, there would be no aerodynamic heating from re-entry unless it was done on purpose by the pilot, the ships don't need to aero brake or "fly" using the atmosphere at all.

It's not complicated, ask a harrier pilot what he could do with infinite fuel, no overheat problem and no altitude limit and those planes barely have more power than weight.

 

[Iskariot]

I agree there needs to be some design implentation for atmo landings, but we have FSD to compliment it also.

Also we would burn up from the friction. Like we completely burn up fuel scooping from a star which is hotter then atmospheric reentry. Im sure the ships have shielding considering if they didnt we would be irradiated hot messes flying system to system scooping stars.

It would be a nice touch if only ships with shields could enter atmospheres.

 

[ChipStar65]

It's not complicated, ask a harrier pilot what he could do with infinite fuel, no overheat problem and no altitude limit and those planes barely have more power than weight.

Yup, no handwavium there, nope. LMFAO.

 

[Lightspeed]

Is there any ship that doesn't have 'wings' or 'fins' or 'spoilers' that could provide some aerodynamic function in atmospheric flight?

The only one I can think of is the Keelback. The Cobra could be viewed as a flying wing.

 

[Ambroza]

why are we still not landing on atmo planets? Just graphical considerations? That would be a tremendous let-down.

Not just graphical. Frontier just aren't finished developing all of the content they want for atmospheric landings, that's all.

 

[IVAN__V]

I think this is just overthinking it...or over engineering it.
The ships have planetary landing modules, the planets have detailed surfaces... The atmosphere is just in the way like a bug. It can be made landable yesterday, the only reason is not is because you're force out of FSD. That's just a simple case of changing a 1 to a 0 somewhere in the game settings.
The ship with shields gets into the path of neutron star ejections but can't gracefully fall through some atmosphere ? Yeah ok....

 

[ChipStar65]

The ship with shields gets into the path of neutron star ejections but can't gracefully fall through some atmosphere ? Yeah ok....

"Neutron star ejections" are radiation (X-rays and gamma rays) and high-energy particles, ions and plasma, that is extremely low density compared to an atmosphere, as is the coronal region of a star, where fuel scooping takes place. This makes the overheating much less of a problem because of extremely low particle density. Frictional heating of re-entry in an atmosphere can exceed the surface temperatures of some red dwarf stars, and ship response to high temperature can be easily gauged by a single SAR mission inside a burning station -- even in relatively low temperatures (~2500 Kelvin or less) with full shields, it takes a bucket-load of heat sinks to keep from burning up. Atmospheres also strongly resist high-speed penetration by blunt objects -- ask any meteorite -- which is why streamlining of atmo-craft is so important. All of which becomes no problem at all as long as a generous application of handwavium is applied.

 

[IVAN__V]

Hahaha.... Can you stop with the physics name dropping ? Nobody cares! Is getting pathetic. This isn't a space physics simulator, this isn't what NASA uses to do its job... So just stop..sthap !
Now back to the game, which tis is, a game , aka mindless fun on a digital device, not a piece of software designed to simulate planetary landing at a multi billion pesos a year shack. In this game the ship with shields gets closer enough to sun to scoop fuel, and also hits stations and stuff at 100 m/s while having a mass of 100 tons which makes it have a mass of like 50.000 tons at 360 kmh.
And bumping into a station at that speed at 50.000 tons does nothing to the shields... Let's remember that's a solid station... atmosphere is like 3.5 million times less dense than the average metal.

 

[ChipStar65]

Can you stop with the physics name dropping ?

Nope. People like you keep coming up with crazy ideas about why it's OK to do this that or the other as if it's real science when it isn't, it's handwavium, which I have repeatedly said is just fine 'cause it's a game. It's y'all who keep bringing the subject up, as if it needs some sort of justification, but it doesn't. Atmospheric landings sound like a gas (pun intended), looking forward to it myself, whether or not it conforms to physical norms.

 

[IVAN__V]

Nope. People like you keep coming up with crazy ideas about why it's OK to do this that or the other as if it's real science when it isn't, it's handwavium, which I have repeatedly said is just fine 'cause it's a game. It's y'all who keep bringing the subject up, as if it needs some sort of justification, but it doesn't. Atmospheric landings sound like a gas (pun intended), looking forward to it myself, whether or not it conforms to physical norms.

The only crazy thing is saying we can't have it cause of physics. It's a game, a sf game, cause it's not based in real life cause nothing moves faster than the speed of light in real life, there's no such thing as a FSD so get off your high pony.
The Devs should do whatever the fan base want so that the game is as much fun as possible!
Right now the game is inching closer to niche within a niche.
"Oh we can't do atmospheric landing bla bla burp"
But can we do FSD jumps ? Can we produce shields like in game? What are you on about ? Physics simulation game ahahahaha