No more high-range FSD buffs, thanks!

[LP Garnell]

Isn't that simply a case of "If you don't like it, don't use it"?

This.

 

[andrewg_oz]

I think those who suggest self-nerfing are missing the point entirely. Pre-engineers Beagle Point was about 1800 jumps from Sol (about 65279Ly / 37Ly/jump, derated a bit). Now it's down to more like 1100 jumps (60Ly/jump). I could decide to not engineer my drive, but that doesn't alter the minimum effort required. IMO the galaxy is a big place, and it *should* require a big effort to travel.

For me, what has been lost is some personal agency in the act of navigation. Pre-engineers, there were places in the galaxy I needed to think about how to get to, otherwise I could spend ages plotting into a dead-end. I got a lot of satisfaction from planning ahead and achieving the outcome I wanted. That's gone, all so that the same people who were complaining about jump ranges before can complain about the "not-buffed-enough" jump ranges now.

Sure, it shows that exploration gameplay is a bit lacking when the lack of navigation agency is a problem, but the solution isn't to buff jump ranges - all that is going to do is reduce the scope that Frontier has to insert new gameplay mechanics into the game. It's short-term gain for the cost of potentially losing much better long-term activities.

Where do jump range buffs stop? What range is enough? Galactic navigation is already largely meaningless. How much more nuanced gameplay needs to be lost before enough is enough? I fear that far too many people aren't going to be satisfied until it's one jump to anywhere.

If you don't like travelling 400Ly - then don't! Folks who liked the idea of being *at least* 1800 jumps from the bubble now find that goal is not even possible, and the folks who were complaining about doing 20 jumps are still complaining about needing to do 20 jumps.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

But there's no problem in adding QoL improvements... the problem is not adding regions, environments, content, or gameplay that counterbalance the rewards nor challenge the player.

I have always argued that persistent increases in FSD range, for example from engineers, are a QoL improvement for fully combat fitted low range vessels, not so much an improvement for explorers.

Since the most important aspect of exploration is discoveries, you hit the nail on the head with regard to missing extra content where the extra range could be utilized to discover new stuff, not just reach that one system that was otherwise out of reach.

Jumponium is a prime example - its a great addition but its all reward and no risk. If there was a risk of a misjump in the opposite direction or a chance of some tangible damage to your FSD when using an injection, then it could have been a great risk v reward gameplay mechanic. Neutron jumpinging is probably the only one FD put any actual thought into imho.

It's true there's no added risk, but at least Jumponium comes at the cost of materials. There's the effort vs reward balance. Plus it's a limited resource, so not a constant effect. In sparse regions it has added a gameplay element where I have been plotting available routes depending on the materials I brought.

 

[GraXXoR]

Isn't it the 20KLY route planner much more responsible for this than the increased jump ranges? Granted, the two in concert would be multiplicative but it seems the 20KLY route planner made it 20 times easier to navigate that distance. It has 20 times the distance to check for a successful route. If you can't make it it's because you can't make it, not because you couldn't find the bridge. Seems the inflated FSD ranges are only slightly responsible and only increase what you can access.

I remember the Hell I had trying to get across the Formidine Rift in my Asp. I traversed it long before the Engineers arrived and there was a lot of failed routing and trial and error. I even had to call the Fuel Rats at one point.

When I finally made it across there was a palpable feeling of accomplishment...

Now it's like... pfffttt.... 50+ LY base distance, 2 x Jumponium and Neutron Star boost for a potential 200 Ly jump range!!!! Seriously, 6 x the range of my explorer build that only just managed to make the jump to Beagle Point...

I had to compromise my build to get the requisite 35LY range... Now you can get 35LY even with the kitchen sink.

Exploration is hardly the accomplishment it once was, which is why I just smile politely and pat them on the head when some millennial trumpets their "achievement" that they've flown to BP and back... post Engineers, post jumponium, post dual AFMU and hull repair limpet controller.

That is why some people are against the power creep... It means that significant challenges are no longer a challenge and become merely pedestrian. It also means that people who don't know what it was like before the power creep look at the first couple of CMDRs to visit BP and shrug, saying, "I could do that in a couple of days. No Biggie."

My memory might be failing me, but I seem to remember that the first commander to reach the centre of the galaxy was even mentioned in one of the gaming magazines and the scope of the ED galaxy was a talking piece and at the time one of the most expansive of any game ever developed.

 

[operant]

I remember the 'good old days' when there were no flying machines and to get to America was month(s) long travel on a ship that traveled over water.
I remember the good old days when space travel was a real achievement in sub-light speed ships, none of this fancy frame ship drive nonsense.
I remember the good old days when fsd could jump only 30 ly at a time and travel was for real men.
I remember the ...............

Bring back the good old days.... hang-on, which days exactly ;-)

 

[Chrystoph]

A large chunk of potential exploration gameplay has been lost, and there are still complaints - it seems a very poor trade.

For people who don't like long distance traveling, who don't want to put in the effort, then all I can suggest is - don't! There is nothing forcing anyone to travel long distances. Shorter trips are always an option.

You just summed up both sides of the argument.

Now, here is an element that you missed. Since you obliquely referred to Distant Worlds 3302, let me say that I plotted my own course across the Abyss.

On the other hand, without the game elements that you want suppressed, I would not have been able to get to Perseus Deep, which required making decisions, using jumponium, and managing my supplies.

You are completely correct in your observation, but you are being selective in its application. The game play is still there if you want it.

 

[Thalion Solarstorm]

The range isnt the problem here. You spend most of the time traveling anyway so range increase is convenient.

id rather see a multi-jump-mod basically making like 3 jumps in one automatically as far as known space ( or explored space ) goes. Basically making navigation in ( for you ) uncharted territory more unsafe. I mean cmon the galaxy is big as it is - i do agree tho that we have reached the "upper-limit" for FSD ranges by now.

Also there could be Regions where Radiation or other Phenomena make long Distance jumps unsafe ( for example nebulae's ) - there could be mechanics where you possible ignite gasses in such Regions upon unsafe jumps and causing ships damage and so on.
Currently - especially multiplayer its somewhat hard if you have like 3 hours of playtime and want to play with your friend that sits maybe 1000ly away and your jumprange is in the 20 ish.

Another possible addition could be the ability to telepresence to any owned stored ship in a Region. that way you could jump in that region where you have the ship stored and play with your friends that are near there while you have the time.
Multicrew is nice and all but at the current state its basically a joke - too less options - no missionboard / outfitting / SRV and so on. Its a barebones concept nothing more atm. - i feel it would be much wider accepted if it was far less restrictive.

On a sidenote : what i wonder and havent got the time to test tho. Since crimes are now on per ship basis - how is this handled in multicrew crimes ? Can you now incriminate anotehr persons ship and get away with it ? Since even if you accept the crimes applying them on your ship that has been docked in some spaceport is totally illogical.

Ok.. enough straying off the rails..

Cheers!

 

[Jack Schitt]

My go-to response, from another thread:

[...] the core of this disagreement can't be solved with code because it isn't a technical problem, it's a perceptual problem.

When I perform a hyperspace jump in ED it's enough to convince me, in that moment, that I've just ripped a hole in spacetime and sent thousands of tonnes of hardware multiple light-years across the galaxy. Even though I know what the code is doing underneath, loading assets and setting up instances. Even though I know the distances are just numbers on a screen. Even though I know it's going to take me ten minutes of real time to get the ship to where I want it in the game. The illusion that I choose to buy into is enough to overcome those things. The simulation that isn't a simulation works, and the choices imposed by the range limitations make sense in the fantasy world FD have created for me to play in. Even though I know.

Other players see nothing but loading screens and wasted time, and would happily sacrifice any of the things that make the simulation work for players like me in order to minimise or even eliminate them. They just want their ship to be where they need it ASAP, with a minimum of barriers.

[...]

A single set of rules that would keep all of those players happy at the same time is impossible, even if the code could support it.

Bottom line, nobody is "wrong" on hyperspace implementation or ranges. But nobody is exclusively "right" either, which renders futile any argument aimed at getting another person to change their position. All any one person can do is attempt to explain their own. Hyperspace mechanics, the size of the galaxy, and all that attends them are among the most subjective things in the game, and something FD will never be able to fully balance without leaving one or more groups of players feeling sidelined. They simply can't please everyone, because the game they've created has too large a scope and too many ways to play it, and jump range is one of the few things where all those Venn circles intersect.

 

[JonathanBurnage]

Head to the top or the bottom of the galaxy. Plenty of adventure still to be had there. I spent 5 weeks wandering around the basement with a 66LY Anaconda; I had to do plenty of careful plotting to make sure I didn’t end up stuck somewhere.

 

[iFred]

I was recently watching last weeks livestream and there was mention of a buff to the Asp Explorer.

While I personally don't think any buffs are necessary for that particular ship, I really hope to not see any further FSD range increases at the high end of the jump range.

I'll double down on that by saying that if I could have a wish, it would be that engineered FSD range increase blueprints had never been added to the game.

I hadn't realised this until a post from MadDogMurdock crystallised an unconscious thought of mine that increased FSD ranges had trivialised navigation in the galaxy.

At the time I had just been out to Beagle Point. My exploration Anaconda is far from FSD-optimised - it has a 50.37Ly unladen range. This is not that much more than pre-engineers optimised ranges of about 42Ly and a long way from the mid-60s that optimised builds now get. Nevertheless, those extra 8Ly made all the difference when crossing The Abyss.

Previously, explorers had spent days or weeks exploring the outer arm of the galaxy, trying to find the best way to the Beagle Point area from the galactic core. Several such routes were discovered and mapped to much acclaim.

The problem is that my 50Ly jump range allowed me to just automatically plot a course across the arm with a single click. What had previously taken days or weeks, just took seconds.

While these increased jump ranges are great for *travelling*, they have pretty much completely eliminated *navigation* from the game. It turns out that the old ~42Ly range was the upper limit that kept the gaps between the galactic arms as gaps. Now they're gone forever, and I feel that a large part of the effort that has gone into creating the superb stellar forge model of our galaxy has been wasted.

Even after all these buffs, there are still people complaining that their FSD ranges are too short!

A large chunk of potential exploration gameplay has been lost, and there are still complaints - it seems a very poor trade.

For people who don't like long distance travelling, who don't want to put in the effort, then all I can suggest is - don't! There is nothing forcing anyone to travel long distances. Shorter trips are always an option.

There are players who would like to travel long distances, with the knowledge that there is a certain minimum of effort required to get there. Each update to Elite seems bent on reducing that effort more and more, devaluing the efforts of those who had gone before, and I like to see that stop.

Well, I see it slightly different. While I headed to SagA right after release in a 33 ly no-route-planner-anaconda I was pretty sure that after return I will never go out again for a long trip. Reason: jump/honk/jump for 2 says is extremely boring.

I have hopes for Beyond though.

But to get to specific target you need range range range. And even more range.

 

[Gaiseric]

Isn't that simply a case of "If you don't like it, don't use it"?

You can still climb a mountain if someone installs a ski lift, but it no longer feels like such a great achievement.

 

[Gaiseric]

Isn't it the 20KLY route planner much more responsible for this than the increased jump ranges? Granted, the two in concert would be multiplicative but it seems the 20KLY route planner made it 20 times easier to navigate that distance. It has 20 times the distance to check for a successful route. If you can't make it it's because you can't make it, not because you couldn't find the bridge. Seems the inflated FSD ranges are only slightly responsible and only increase what you can access.

Earlier this year I crossed The Abyss in a 32ly engineered DBX. The 20 kly route planner refused to do it, but I had no trouble manually picking waypoints 1 or 2 kly ahead and plotting those. Occassionally I had to manually backtrack. But it wasn't like a way through didn't exist where I was trying. I didn't have to go exploring along the edge of The Abyss trying to find a bridge. It really wasn't that difficult. Doing it in an Exploraconda would probably have allowed the 20k route planner to work. All that would have changed is remove some of the fiddling about. The route I was travelling would not have substantially changed, it would just have been done quicker and in fewer jumps.

 

[Bryan K]

Is this another one of those “I like things difficult, therefore they should be difficult for everybody” threads? Such a selfish mindset.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

My go-to response, from another thread:



Bottom line, nobody is "wrong" on hyperspace implementation or ranges. But nobody is exclusively "right" either, which renders futile any argument aimed at getting another person to change their position. All any one person can do is attempt to explain their own. Hyperspace mechanics, the size of the galaxy, and all that attends them are among the most subjective things in the game, and something FD will never be able to fully balance without leaving one or more groups of players feeling sidelined. They simply can't please everyone, because the game they've created has too large a scope and too many ways to play it, and jump range is one of the few things where all those Venn circles intersect.

I can categorically say that FD was wrong in its Hyperspace implementation at launch.

The original proposal was much more engaging, had a greater variety of exploration elements, and would have allowed things like the Guardians, Thargoids, Dynasty, etc., to emerge far more organically than the abrupt insertions into already known space that we got.

Using hyperspace route discovery as a mechanism would also have also supported the split in the player base between those who like undiscovered space and those who want semi-automated multiple jumps.
Nav Beacons would also have a purpose beyond popping bad guys.

 

[GJ51]

FD seems to consistently conspire to devalue any individual achievement.

It originally was a vast unexplored galaxy, immense and unknown. Early explorers were legendary for having reached and documented journeys that took incredible internal fortitude and determination.

Nowdays

Everybody gets a ribbon

 

[Darkfyre99]

My go-to response, from another thread:



Bottom line, nobody is "wrong" on hyperspace implementation or ranges. But nobody is exclusively "right" either, which renders futile any argument aimed at getting another person to change their position. All any one person can do is attempt to explain their own. Hyperspace mechanics, the size of the galaxy, and all that attends them are among the most subjective things in the game, and something FD will never be able to fully balance without leaving one or more groups of players feeling sidelined. They simply can't please everyone, because the game they've created has too large a scope and too many ways to play it, and jump range is one of the few things where all those Venn circles intersect.

In my opinion, the true problem for exploration isn't actually the increasing jump ranges. The problem is that there still a paucity of exploration options to choose from. You can still fit everything you need to explore in a Hauler, and still have room left over for an SRV. There is no difference to an explorer between a "A" or a "D" class life support, for example. It doesn't affect how long you can survive away from the Bubble, just how long you survive with it deactivated. Imagine how different it would be if the size of a life support system determined how many units of life support you had, and class determined how efficiently it was consumed. Then toss in the ability to carry extra life support in your cargo hold.

 

[Kubicide]

Isn't it the 20KLY route planner much more responsible for this than the increased jump ranges? Granted, the two in concert would be multiplicative but it seems the 20KLY route planner made it 20 times easier to navigate that distance. It has 20 times the distance to check for a successful route. If you can't make it it's because you can't make it, not because you couldn't find the bridge. Seems the inflated FSD ranges are only slightly responsible and only increase what you can access.

Glad someone posted this. Agree the auto route planner killed off the navigation challenge more than FSD range changes.

One thing FDev should have tried was making the FSD do single 200+ LY jumps (in only one or two exploration ships) but have no route planning feature because, you know, you're exploring the unknown and don't have the data to know what lies beyond your near proximity. Here the explorer would plot one jump at a time having to make sure each one would get them to their intended destination, and manage fuel plans, etc.

I remember jumping being a challenge back in beta just as the region expanded to the pill shaped universe. It was a challenge to jump all the way down to the end of the pill and back. One had to actually use the map tools and make decisions related to fuel options, direction, etc. It was actually adding some depth to the game. This is all gone today with the auto route planner - a feature which really only helps bring the arcadish feel to the game where everything is push-button simple.


Counter point here is that the galaxy is empty so having to make a big effort to jump only to find endless, repetitive emptiness would not be good gameplay. Believe this is what drove FDev to implement the route planner: folks asked for it loudly since traveling through the empty galaxy is very 'boring'. It was and still is.

 

[cyberus]

What exploration do we talking about in Elite? There is simply no such thing in the game.

After scanning 1-2 systems you have seen it all.... every next system is exact same boredom you have seen in the previous one.

You can get better exploration experience in the Walmart tbh when searching all items on your shopping list which was given by your wife and sent you away to complete the task.

If there were unknown.... and something what hidden and should be discovered by the commanders once they are there.... then yeah... that's exploration.

Currently in ED we have very very tedious way of traveling .... which suppose give the impression of big universe.

While I can slightly agree that FSD ranges do not need big buffs..... but looking at current way of traveling in bubble with ships I understand the desire to have those.

Simple solution could be for this like in the game I have played in the past.... which probably some of you familiar with the title.

Independence War 2: Edge of Chaos.

There were links/bridges between constellations which allowed to cover bigger distances inside know space.

So if FD could implement those inside the bubble at risonable locations then a lot of complaints about FSD will be gone.

 

[Drelthar]

More High range FSD buffs please.

Or, at least, mods for the fuel scoop which allow various levels of FSD boost from scooping more than just nuetrons/white dwarves. That'd be sweet.

Also, would be nice if those boosts could then be auto mapped on the route your taking (Think it does this right now with the current ones which is awesome, needs updating to work with sythesis automatically though, is still a pain to use that)

 

[Khazid]

While FSD range increases makes older exploratory accomplishments seem trivial, it should also open up new exploration options. Not sure if any of the galaxy remains practically unreachable with our current ranges, but the game designers should open new options along with FSD increases.

It's a bit of an exaggeration, sure, but imagine Columbus complaining because in his day his ship needed months to reach the Americas, while now it takes 10 or so hours.
What 's wrong with that? The way to the skies and eventually the moon was opened!

"Damn Wright brothers making my accomplishment look like childsplay!"
~Christopher Columbus

Don't worry explorers, your former achievements are still valued. When one destination is conquered, it only opens the way to the next!