Why engineer if NPC difficulty stays the same?

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I don't actually want stronger NPC's.
Bullet sponges are not fun to fight.

I just want more enemies in a wing.

Back in 1.4 you used to see wings of 10+ ships (usually Sidewinders) created by kill missions. Those were hilarious fun, and often suicide (no engineering + 20+ guns firing on you!).
But these were bugged, and instead of fixing it and improving on it, FD removed it.

The only way I can get that sort of 10v1 battle now, is to take cargo in to a HAZ RES, or CNB.

FD, Bring back the big NPC wings!

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

If the game is too easy then you have the choice of removing your engineered mods or using a stock ship, so no.
Sincerely,

The rest of us

Yes, do this.
All those ships, and modules you've worked for, just don't use them!

Btw, this is how a stock ship works against a deadly NPC...
[video=youtube_share;wuXVdn8YJMQ]https://youtu.be/wuXVdn8YJMQ[/video]

 

[MajorHavoc]

We have a massively strong alien race already in game, which is a great thing. Unfortunately, with the introduction of xeno weapons, weapon engineering wasn't really the answer to them.

I do get the reasoning in your first post, personally I still struggle with the disconnect between 'real space' and 'supercruise' and the melee/short range combat.

Edit: (Not a struggle with the combat being difficult, I like that, just the way the npcs are presented in system in SS's)

 

[zombieapocalypse]

Why should somebody engineer a ship if as a result NPCs spawn that negate the advantages of engineering the ship?

Adding special areas in the game for high-end engineered ships could be something, but then there needs to be a reason to go there. In other MMOs it's usually getting even better gear to be able to go into even harder areas.

The result is just an illusion of progression since every advantage gained is instantly taken away by harder NPCs - effectively removing progression completely.

There definitely needs to be more dangerous areas in the game. For a starter, anarchy systems should be a no go for all but the bravest and best equipped. And technically, it doesn't negate progression, because you're still working towards something - being able to enter previously unconquerable areas. That's generally how games with RPG-elements work.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
Btw, this is how a stock ship works against a deadly NPC...
…

Not sure if that's a good example

… And technically, it doesn't negate progression, because you're still working towards something - being able to enter previously unconquerable areas. …

Matching NPCs to player strength is negating progression, that's the whole reason for it. To create an illusion of progression and the illusion of difficulty. The usual power creep.

It doesn't matter if the player and NPCs have 10x more health, armor and DMG output or not. If there is no other reason for "more dangerous areas" than that they are more dangerous for new players - then these areas have no purpose.

If upgrading a ship results in upgraded NPCs to match the player gear upgrade, then there is no reason to upgrade the player gear and the combat won't be different.

That NPC matching player gear rank is one of the most stupid things Devs put into games.

 

[=Phoenix=]

The strength of NPC's has increased, have you tried attacking a Thargoid recently? While the full Thargoid story has yet to unfold they represent a much bigger threat that the current NPC's and require new equipment and a serious amount of engineering. Tackling them solo is also not recommended unless you are running one serious beast of a ship.Also as previously pointed too, some normal NPC's are engineered and present a significant threat to even engineered ships.

 

[Zynniah]

It is a very poor design decision to make NPCs tougher just because I engineer my ship. Doing so will make me reconsider engineering and make me regret having bothered to ddo so in the first place.

Enhancements, like engineering, should offer an incentive for using them. Better weapons and defences to choose to be able to fight the tougher Thargoids is an incentive. Longer jump range to be able to get to otherwise unreachabe stars is an incentive.

Every NPC being harder because I engineered my FSD is a disincentive which discourages the engineering. Every NPC being tougher because I engineered a small shield generator for my Type 9 so that I could carry more cargo and still have shields is a disincentive.

If you first nd fighting NPCs too easy. Remove some of your engineered effects or reduce the grade of engineering or go hunt Thargoids or go do PvP.

 

[Conch]

In a corvette perhaps, that holds no interest for me. Take out a religious leader in a Clipper with his wing of 6 vultures in your FAS if you want to impress me.

no i did this in a FAS, you jump the gun to fast, im not sticked to my vette

 

[oscarolim]

And that is good?

When you have an almost unlimited amount of combinations for player skills, ships loadouts and gaming scenarios, is pretty much difficult to balance for every possible case out there.

Personally, I don't feel NPCs that easy, fits nicely with my skill level. However, someone more skilled than me will think they are too easy. Likewise, someone less skilled than me will think they are too hard.
So what do you propose?

 

[Iskariot]

With the introduction of engineers (2.1) and the recent buff to engineered modules max strength (3.0), FDEV introduced a way to increase the strength of your ship (or say upgrade your gear) by a significant amount.

Here is what bugs me about this. Like a big part (according to polls) of the player base, I play ED mainly for PvE with some occasional PvP. Unlike in other games, were there is a progression of enemy strength throughout the game, be it that enemies level with you, or you unlock areas with stronger enemies, NPC difficult in ED only changes marginally throughout the game according to your combat status, and it isn't based upon your engineering level at all.
Thus by engineering your ship, you will become stronger, whereas the NPCs stay the same, making the game overall easier. This is a big part of the reason why I'm currently very reluctant to engineer anything else than QOL features of my ship (e.g. FSD and thrusters).

To me it seems the developer team took inspiration from other MMOs, and slapped a gear upgrading system on top of a game that doesn't actually need it. Which seems an enormous waste of resources and development time.

Alas, the time is invested now and engineers is going to stay. So to the point of my rant:
Should FDEV look into improving the strength of NPCs for people that engineer their ships? This could be done by pitting you against engineered NPCs if you have an engineered ship (probably not easy to balance) or like other MMOS introducing zones (e.g. outside of the core bubble or anarchy factions) with stronger NPCs?

Just curious what people think about this.

Many if not most ED players do not max out their engineering. So the npc are still challenging to them.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Because players are special, the heroes of the story and as such need to have extra strength.

 

[Loki The Coyote]

I don't understand how having the npc's upgrade at the same rate as you is a good thing.

what would be the point of uprading then?... doesn't it completly negate the point of upgrading in the first place?

games that do this drive me bonkers.

not sure about anyone else, but I wouldn't even TOUCH engineers if all it would do is make the enemies scale with me... know what I mean?

what would be the point?

having areas where you'd get your @$$ handed to you without upgrades makes sense for sure, but in general.. having ALL npc's scale up with you just makes zero sense.

 

[Oss133]

Dear fDeV,

I have been repeatedly banging my head on the desk and now I have a headache.

What should I do?

 

[n13L5]

Because the issue of being stronger than NPCs only happen in Elite, right?

WoW has NPC progression, Diablo has NPC progression, PoE has NPC progression, X RPG game has NPC progression, but once you get the right stuff, you're a god unless you are not paying attention.

And that's what players like.

A challenge once in a while, ok. But generally, in a computer game, you'd want to be something of a god or just something you can't be in real life.

And there's the bell curve. Game designers can't ignore it.
So, the less candy laced with ADHD-inducing food coloring you had as a kid and the further your IQ is north of uh, 80? 130? - the harder you'll find it to meet a challenge in a game.

 

[Loki The Coyote]

stop banging your head for one...

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Why ever buy something else than the starter sidey?



because of progression, some people want to experience new stuf in their games they play. Unfortunately Ed has a lot randomness, but only randomnes in a very repetitive way, it lacks unique randomness. And so poeple want to try different ships with different setups. Unfortnely within al these setups and how different rhey might be tehcncially they don't generate much big differences in how you play the game. Trading is basically ALWAYS the same just more or less reptition by efficiency.
Combat and wepaons create bigger dveristy but too many ships are no true "diversity" they are just like the other one but less efficient. And this is where the theoretical possibilities aren't practical possibilities and practical diversity. Engineers help with this because thy cna truly alter behavior and stats of ships and weapons. Unfortuntely behind a quite repetitive big task.

A well designed proepr Powerplay and dynamic bakgroung siomulation of trading and mining or economy in general would be a great addition because it makes the entire universe of ED dynamic instead of repetitive by its static behavior.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

To me it seems the developer team took inspiration from other MMOs, and slapped a gear upgrading system on top of a game that doesn't actually need it. Which seems an enormous waste of resources and development time.

Well, that, and people were demanding from pretty much day 1 for a crafting system of some kind. Which usually means some sort of upgrade system.

Some MMO style games get round this by scaling enemies, but then you end up with silly situations like level 100 spiders and level 1 Dadera, because the game knows at higher levels you have better kit as well and adjusts based on level.

ED suffers a problem due to not everyone having Horizons (especially Mac owners who can't have Horizons) and those who don't want... again, there would have to be some gamified elements to determine whether the person had done any engineering and if so, how much, to make appropriately challenging enemies.

Then on top, we know FD support a charity for gamers with disabilities who would find playing against super AI difficult.

Players also have a wide range of skills. People can scream git gud as often as they want, but everyone has their own skill cap.

Combine this with a shared galaxy and in Open shared enemies (you might end up facing opposition someone else has spawned), and it can be tricky to balance right.

Two tactics can be considered here for players:

1) Understanding you can't and perhaps shouldn't be able to beat all opponents. This is potentially an argument in favour of increased difficulty of AI, but i think we all know where this would lead. The bottom tier players would find themselves locked out of combat, resulting in a massive wave of discontent and negative reviews.

2) Live with the current NPCs and stop flying top tier ships all the time. If you want a challenge, there are challenges to be had. I've got a bit bored with macing most NPCs (some could still give me trouble though) in my bigger Engineered ships, and i've now sold most of them, all of the combat ones, and now only have Cobras for most activities, and its great fun. Really challenging, even in an engineered ship. Low end still easy, but a wing of enemies, even weaker ones, can still provide a challenge.

So, barring FD upping the difficulty, the way to deal with it is stop flying god ships, and give yourself a challenge.

If FD did up the difficulty, it would be annoying for me now, since i don't really want to go back to the big ships.

 

[Cmdr Mackara]

Dear fDeV,

I have been repeatedly banging my head on the desk and now I have a headache.

What should I do?

1) Request all desks damage be nerfed
2) Insist your head needs buffing
3) Complain about the length of time that it took to get the headache from the start of the time banging your head. (This could be too long and grindy or too short and thus unfulfilling)
4) Insist everyone has a headache
5) Complain that NPC's can respawn after banging their heads and don't appear to have headaches thereafter and therefore unfair
6) Complain that your head won't go all the way into the table and it therefore breaks immersion
7) Start a poll asking others if they think that this is right - preferably with a very leading set of options
8) Vow to never play with the desk again (then bang your head some more a day later)

 

[Maka Gucci]

For fun in trying out different builds and to be competitive in PvP. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Muetdhiver]

There should be threat 6 and 7 wing assassination missions.

Fully optional. Not up to it, don't take it.

That and other very high difficulty optional challenges would make elite dangerous again. Even for pimped 'vettes owners.