Beyond did literally nothing to help the grind.

on a side note some flavours of old 2.4 engineers still give you an advantage no new player can obtain.

long range rails with 50% thermal reduction anyone? 3.0 rail boats are just meh

Eh? I'm guessing you're unaware of the changes to rails.

In 3.0, -40% net thermal load reduction is applied automatically upon buying the super penetrator, feedback cascade or plasma slug specials, dropping the thermal load on a c2 rail from 20.0 to 12.0.

Furthermore, the 6k range is automatic.

There are not one in one thousand 2.4 rails with lower than 12.0 thermal load and even the tiny few known to exist are at 11.x, making no practical difference. And they have less range.

In short, it's impossible to equal the performance of 3.0 rails with 2.4 rails.

About focused plasma though you would, at this time, have a point!
 
I've played over 500 hours - I won't spend a single hour to get where I was before just because someone thought it was a great idea to reset progress with the engineers.

Yours is a totally FALSE narrative. Go ahead and keep fooling yourself that anything you rolled in 2.4 is worth keeping compared to what a 3.0 version of that same G5 upgrade will provide.

I am amused by all the misinformation and faux outrage posted about these changes day in and day out. The ignorance regarding what the 3.0 system actually delivers compared to 2.4 is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

Probably best the loudest complainers do follow through with their threats and uninstall the game and move on. Their non-stop whining on here will most definitely not be missed by me. ;)
 
Yours is a totally FALSE narrative. Go ahead and keep fooling yourself that anything you rolled in 2.4 is worth keeping compared to what a 3.0 version of that same G5 upgrade will provide.

I am amused by all the misinformation and faux outrage posted about these changes day in and day out. The ignorance regarding what the 3.0 system actually delivers compared to 2.4 is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

Probably best the loudest complainers do follow through with their threats and uninstall the game and move on. Their non-stop whining on here will most definitely not be missed by me. ;)

Go roll some focused PA's and get back to us on that:)
 
Yours is a totally FALSE narrative. Go ahead and keep fooling yourself that anything you rolled in 2.4 is worth keeping compared to what a 3.0 version of that same G5 upgrade will provide.

I am amused by all the misinformation and faux outrage posted about these changes day in and day out. The ignorance regarding what the 3.0 system actually delivers compared to 2.4 is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

Probably best the loudest complainers do follow through with their threats and uninstall the game and move on. Their non-stop whining on here will most definitely not be missed by me. ;)

That's rich coming from you, the person who told people you could trade any high grade raw material for arsenic at a 27 to 1 ratio when the best rate is 9 to 1. Perhaps you should bother learning a bit more about how beyond actually works before you go telling other people to do so themselves.
 
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Dissenter! Dissenter! Burn it!

"Literally nothing to help the grind"

Yet you point out how the Mat Traders do help the grind. Maybe you should learn a bit more about how words work before you go telling other people ... Well the rest of that sentence is a mash of nothing.
 
Dissenter! Dissenter! Burn it!

"Literally nothing to help the grind"

Yet you point out how the Mat Traders do help the grind. Maybe you should learn a bit more about how words work before you go telling other people ... Well the rest of that sentence is a mash of nothing.

They help one aspect of the grind, but beyond makes that same aspect of the grind worse so it's a net neutral. I said this in the op.

And I guess replying to someone is now trying to burn them for dissent. You do realize that I made this tread to make a point and when someone dissents I am going to try to address their argument, right? Sorry to disappoint but that's how discussions work.
 
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I was away from this game for over 6 months if not longer. The engineer grind caused me to quit.

I played for maybe 5 hours on Saturday doing the Guardians mission. I still wasn't able to finish.

When the night was over I regretted playing this game. I wasted my Saturday jumping from system to system. I just don't have the kind of time this game demands.

I still feel like I want to collect my 30 mil and upgrade my FSD. I'm hoping that after that I can leave engineers alone and just do quick wing missions.
 
I have come to the conclusion that people will grind no matter what. FDev could put in loads of different ways to get stuff and all people will do is find the easiest and quickest way to get that stuff anyway, grind it out and then complain about the grind.

I really don't think the grind will change for these people in the slightest no matter what FDev do.
 
Eh? I'm guessing you're unaware of the changes to rails.

In 3.0, -40% net thermal load reduction is applied automatically upon buying the super penetrator, feedback cascade or plasma slug specials, dropping the thermal load on a c2 rail from 20.0 to 12.0.

Furthermore, the 6k range is automatic.

There are not one in one thousand 2.4 rails with lower than 12.0 thermal load and even the tiny few known to exist are at 11.x, making no practical difference. And they have less range.

In short, it's impossible to equal the performance of 3.0 rails with 2.4 rails.

About focused plasma though you would, at this time, have a point!

ah yes - bad example with Rails.
 
I have come to the conclusion that people will grind no matter what. FDev could put in loads of different ways to get stuff and all people will do is find the easiest and quickest way to get that stuff anyway, grind it out and then complain about the grind.

I really don't think the grind will change for these people in the slightest no matter what FDev do.

I have no problem with the superpower rep "grind", or the credit "grind", or the elite "grind." I have a major issue with the engineering grind because unlike the other three is has major flaws that turn it from enjoyable gameplay to frustrating grinding. Beyond is a step in the right direction, but until we get reasonable material trade rates it will fail to address the biggest and central flaws with the grind (g5 manufactured mats, g5 data, and g5/g5 elements).
 
Yet you point out how the Mat Traders do help the grind.

Material traders, in their present form, are only good for downgrading G5 materials.
But the G5 materials themselves are at least as difficult to obtain as they used to be.
Or, in many cases, they are even more difficult to come by. For instance MEFs and EFCs, which used to be abundant in the 2.4 mission boards, are now seemingly almost exclusively given away by "transport many thousands of tons of crap" type wing missions.

I mean, seriously? Do I really need to spend a heck of a lot of precious game time in search of wingmates in trader ships and then jump mindlessly back and forth between two systems ten times to be able to lay my hands on what? 5 EFCs? Of which I need at least 100 for my PDs and thermal resistant SBs?

What alternative solutions do material traders have to offer to alleviate this? That I'm allowed to give them 600 RFCs in exchange?
 
From pure personal experience, I this morning completed my 100% hard-ceilinged PvP better-than-god-rolled ship in a total RL time taken of almost exactly 10 hours.

I repeat: 10 hours of my RL time to go from vanilla to full min/maxed

I am chuffed for you, really.

However compare experiences. I've been trying to get hold of abnormal compact emissions data. This data was always one of the most massive pains to get in 2.4 and so far in the brave new world of 3.0 I have spent six hours on this. Total obtained in that time = 0.

Before Captain Strawman jumps in again, this isn't to 'upgrade 18 ships in a week'. It's to convert a single module for a single ship, which is already at G5 from 2.4 to the new G5 in 3.0.

Based on the fact that so far it's taken me between 9 and 11 rolls to fully max out a module on conversion I will need four drops of the data and I have not had one in six hours of play. That's without even mentioning the mind-crushing tedium of the things that you can actually do to get the chance of a drop, which is flying around scanning ships, dropping into a CZ to sit there scanning ships and flying around looking for encoded USSs. The thrills!

I've eventually given up. That's six hours of game time completely wasted.

Instead I have gone to a tech broker and have exchanged virtually every other piece of top-grade data that I possessed for them. That's trading like-for-like top ranked data at an exchange rate of 6-1 (6-1!! for grade 5 to grade 5!!!!) because the game makes one kind of data practically impossible to obtain even after spending six brain-melting hours looking for it.

I had to trade in my other top-ranked data because after already trading in my level 4 ranked data in the same upgrade path, also at a rate of 6-1, the trade-up from grade 3 to grade 5 is 36-1, meaning that unless I fancied trying to get hold of 252 units of unexpected emissions data, cross-trades were all that was left.

A G3 to G5 trade up of 36-1 is an utter joke.

A cross-type trade of top-tier materials at 6-1 is an utter joke.

The fact that I've had to pretty much wipe out all of my top-tier data just to upgrade a single module, meaning that I'll now need to go through different iterations of this same hellish crapfest if I have the audacity to want to convert any more modules, is an utter joke.

I mean seriously, my Corvette alone has 26 engineered modules. I've spent six hours making literally zero progress towards upgrading a single module on one of my ships and eventually after giving up, burned pretty much every high tier piece of data that I had, not even to escape spending that time but to avoid me having to spend two or three times more, still with the possibility that I might have ZERO progress to show for it. That is also an utter joke.

Material brokers 'reducing grind' and reducing the hours spent praying to the RNG gods is an utter joke.

Whoever dreamed up these trade-in rates, seriously hang your head in shame because you have absolutely no concept of what they mean in terms of player time and engagement with this game.

A joke. A complete and utter joke.

The one thing that I wanted to be addressed about engineering in 3.0 was the fact that it was possible to spend hours on looking for materials and/or data and at the end of it, not only not have what you needed but to have not even made any progress at all towards getting it. 3.0 addresses none of that, in fact if anything I would say it is worse.

I actually used to like engineering my ships. I can't see any way at all that I'm going to be doing it now, I mean I can't face even thinking about what it would take to re-do my Cutter of Corvette.

Oh best of all? Now I get to go and look for the other material I need for the same upgrade. Yeah still not done even after spending 6 hours on it and ing away all my best data, now I need some materials too.

Did I mention what a complete joke this is?

I really hope you see this Sandy. Some actual analysis of just what this offers.
 
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I am chuffed for you, really.

However compare experiences. I've been trying to get hold of abnormal compact emissions data. This data was always one of the most massive pains to get in 2.4 and so far in the brave new world of 3.0 I have spent six hours on this. Total obtained in that time = 0.

Before Captain Strawman jumps in again, this isn't to 'upgrade 18 ships in a week'. It's to convert a single module for a single ship, which is already at G5 from 2.4 to the new G5 in 3.0.

Based on the fact that so far it's taken me between 9 and 11 rolls to fully max out a module on conversion I will need four drops of the data and I have not had one in six hours of play. That's without even mentioning the mind-crushing tedium of the things that you can actually do to get the chance of a drop, which is flying around scanning ships, dropping into a CZ to sit there scanning ships and flying around looking for encoded USSs. The thrills!

I've eventually given up. That's six hours of game time completely wasted.

Instead I have gone to a tech broker and have exchanged virtually every other piece of top-grade data that I possessed for them. That's trading like-for-like top ranked data at an exchange rate of 6-1 (6-1!! for grade 5 to grade 5!!!!) because the game makes one kind of data practically impossible to obtain even after spending six brain-melting hours looking for it.

I had to trade in my other top-ranked data because after already trading in my level 4 ranked data in the same upgrade path, also at a rate of 6-1, the trade-up from grade 3 to grade 5 is 36-1, meaning that unless I fancied trying to get hold of 252 units of unexpected emissions data, cross-trades were all that was left.

A G3 to G5 trade up of 36-1 is an utter joke.

A cross-type trade of top-tier materials at 6-1 is an utter joke.

The fact that I've had to pretty much wipe out all of my top-tier data just to upgrade a single module, meaning that I'll now need to go through different iterations of this same hellish crapfest if I have the audacity to want to convert any more modules, is an utter joke.

I mean seriously, my Corvette alone has 26 engineered modules. I've spent six hours making literally zero progress towards upgrading a single module on one of my ships and eventually after giving up, burned pretty much every high tier piece of data that I had, not even to escape spending that time but to avoid me having to spend two or three times more, still with the possibility that I might have ZERO progress to show for it, is an utter joke.

Material brokers 'reducing grind' and reducing the hours spent praying to the RNG gods is an utter joke.

Whoever dreamed up these trade-in rates, seriously hang your head in shame because you have absolutely no concept of what they mean in terms of player time and engagement with this game.

A joke. A complete and utter joke.

The one thing that I wanted to be addressed about engineering in 3.0 was the fact that it was possible to spend hours on looking for materials and/or data and at the end of it, not only not have what you needed but to have not even made any progress at all towards getting it. 3.0 addresses none of that, in fact if anything I would say it is worse.

I actually used to like engineering my ships. I can't see any way at all that I'm going to be doing it now, I mean I can't face even thinking about what it would take to re-do my Cutter of Corvette.

Oh best of all? Now I get to go and look for the other material I need for the same upgrade. Yeah still not done even after spending 6 hours on it and ing away all my best data, now I need some materials too.

Did I mention what a complete joke this is?

I really hope you see this Sandy. Some actual analysis of just what this offers.

Damn bro, maybe you should stop trying to grind them and just play the game!

[video=youtube;WaIJKM0sjdo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaIJKM0sjdo[/video]
 
However compare experiences. I've been trying to get hold of abnormal compact emissions data. This data was always one of the most massive pains to get in 2.4 and so far in the brave new world of 3.0 I have spent six hours on this. Total obtained in that time = 0.

Agreed. The choke-points are still there and your description is typical of many others coming in. I think I was lucky in that my own build by pure coincidence didn't force me through many choke-points and, furthermore, I didn't suffer at the hands of the HGE USS spawn gods.

Concerning the latter, given the extent of the variations we are seeing from Cmdr to Cmdr, and how persistent problems are being reported by experienced RNGineers who know the rules of the USS gods, I really do wonder whether something is happening similar to the problems that used to afflict RES spawn (because the game didn't make an RNG check each time an NPC ship spawned, but rather did one RNG roll when we logged in, then put us on the applicable table, for better or worse).
 
I've zero interest in the engineer grind, so i simply don't do it.


I think nitro boosters in a so-called "spaceship" is absurd and pathetic, so i don't use it.


I find the 'Duh, Mishuns!" board and "passenger lounge" are a dismal and thoughtless replacement for the previous games' BBS system, so i just ignore them.


To me, "supercruise" has hopelessly unintuitive and uninteresting velocity control, that captures absolutely nothing at all of the sense of being invested in stupendous mechanical momentum, so i simply don't use it.


In the absence of anything approximating basic freedom of movement, or, thus, free-form spaceflight, i have less than zero interest in "Power Play", Thargoids or the BGS or stories / mysteries etc., so i just ignore all that as well.


Likewise for trying different ships, or applying any "upgrades" to them, or paintjobs etc., so have no complaints about any of that stuff either.



I can't understand for the life of me why anyone would "grind" doing stuff they don't enjoy, for such dubious rewards as "jam tomorrow".



Doesn't everyone realise yet, there'll never be jam today..?
 
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I've zero interest in the engineer grind, so i simply don't do it.


I think nitro boosters in a so-called "spaceship" is absurd and pathetic, so i don't use it.


I find the 'Duh, Mishuns!" board and "passenger lounge" are a dismal and thoughtless replacement for the previous games' BBS system, so i just ignore them.


To me, "supercruise" has hopelessly unintuitive and uninteresting velocity control, that captures absolutely nothing at all of the sense of being invested in stupendous mechanical momentum, so i simply don't use it.


In the absence of anything approximating basic freedom of movement, or, thus, free-form spaceflight, i have less than zero interest in "Power Play", Thargoids or the BGS or stories / mysteries etc., so i just ignore all that as well.


Likewise for trying different ships, or applying any "upgrades" to them, or paintjobs etc., so have no complaints about any of that stuff either.



I can't understand for the life of me why anyone would "grind" doing stuff they don't enjoy, for such dubious rewards as "jam tomorrow".



Doesn't everyone realise yet, there'll never be jam today..?

So either you don't play the game or you only play Arena.
 
So either you don't play the game or you only play Arena.


Not true, once or twice a year i fire it up, let it update, spend a few minutes limping my Eagle around (i only presume its even moving from all the weird groaning noises involved), reconfirming once again that none of this has anything whatsoever to do with Elite, and then promptly log out and play FFE instead.

Must've been thru that sequence half a dozen times already, so i can't say i haven't got my money's worth.
 
Not true, once or twice a year i fire it up, let it update, spend a few minutes limping my Eagle around (i only presume its even moving from all the weird groaning noises involved), reconfirming once again that none of this has anything whatsoever to do with Elite, and then promptly log out and play FFE instead.

Must've been thru that sequence half a dozen times already, so i can't say i haven't got my money's worth.

Yikes.
 
I mean seriously, my Corvette alone has 26 engineered modules. I've spent six hours making literally zero progress towards upgrading a single module on one of my ships and eventually after giving up, burned pretty much every high tier piece of data that I had, not even to escape spending that time but to avoid me having to spend two or three times more, still with the possibility that I might have ZERO progress to show for it, is an utter joke.


I feel your pain. :) I’m in a similar position – a decent sized fleet of ships already engineered to G5. People talk about “trading down”, but how does that help in our position? The rate of 6-1 to exchange G5s is just too high if you're collecting mats the traditional way. Then there's the fact that we need to roll 10+ times, with that ba****d unpredictable final 1/16th that’s simply sadistic. Granted, once I finally complete a module the results are much better, but it’s proving inordinately time consuming.

Incidentally Red Anders, I’m collecting far more G5s as mission rewards, so I think that’s the game for people in our position now. I collected 35 units of G5 data running transport missions in my Beluga (the trip was about 40 minutes).

I'm very open to being shown the error of my ways though… please.
 
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