Beyond did literally nothing to help the grind.

[Sylveria]

Anything that consumes time and requires effort can be considered a "grind".

It's all subjective, and depends on the person's enjoyment of said activities.

I've a few friends who enjoy playing game markets instead of engaging with others directly in games- perhaps "accountants" would be a good way to describe them... does this mean their style of playing is wrong? No, if they're paying for the game- they can choose to play however they wish.

While I agree with the sentiment that convolution of the Engineering system in an attempt to make it more "complex" doesn't constitute "enjoyable" gameplay, to say that the game itself is a "grind" is an excuse and nothing more. IMO- all games should require time investment and effort, and if you're not willing to do so, then perhaps it's not an endeavor you should engage in.

TL;DR - The "grind" is in your mind.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Anything that consumes time and requires effort can be considered a "grind".

It's all subjective, and depends on the person's enjoyment of said activities.

.

you don't even know the definition of grind.

 

[Sylveria]

you don't even know the definition of grind.

Au contraire, I just simply don't engage in semantic discussions. As I said, it's subjective.

 

[galahad2069]

Anything that consumes time and requires effort can be considered a "grind".

It's all subjective, and depends on the person's enjoyment of said activities.

If it's really all subjective, then you can surely name a few people who find amusement in SCing around for hours, in search of RNG driven HG signal sources.

 

[Sylveria]

If it's really all subjective, then you can surely name a few people who find amusement in SCing around for hours, in search of RNG driven HG signal sources.

Although I'm not pretentious enough to claim to "speak for others" I'll speak for myself- and yes, on occasion I do actually SC for hours happening on random signal sources.

Of course, I'm not bound by a certain game play style nor do I expect everyone else to play the way I do. There's a number of options available in game, and the choice is yours. (and mine) Sometimes I randomly explore systems, sometimes I hop onto planets and explore, sometimes I bounty hunt, sometimes I'll haul cargo.

Fun and enjoyment are indeed subjective. If you're placing arbitrary limitations on your own gameplay- then fine. But don't expect everyone else to play the way you do.

 

[Sylveria]

I also find it incredibly boring. Question - if it was less of a grind would you be disappointed? Would you prefer it to be more of a grind even?

The question is irrelevant. I don't consider game play to be a "grind". If it's not enjoyable to me, I simply don't engage in it.

 

[Maka Gucci]

The question is irrelevant. I don't consider game play to be a "grind". If it's not enjoyable to me, I simply don't engage in it.

Slave who doesn't see their chains. ^

Spoiler

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/BriceMorrison/20110211/88931/A_Necessary_Evil_Grinding_in_Games.php

A Design Definition of Grinding

For a game designer, grinding can be defined as a part of the game that has both:

Incredibly strong Long Term Incentive to keep the player going forward
Base Mechanics and Punishment and Reward Systems that have already been mastered by the player

In a grind, the player wants to keep going. This is probably because they have already put a substantial amount of effort into the game, and they would like to see it through to the end. If a player has been planting veggies in FarmVille for weeks, and they are very close to being able to afford the barn, then they will be compelled to continue in order to make their previous effort worthwhile. This is an incredibly strong Long Term Incentive; a reward that will come to them in the future in exchange for action in the present.

But a powerful Long Term Incentive on its own doesn’t make it a grind. In addition the player must be performing the same actions over and over, actions that they have already mastered. Walking down a short hallway and opening a single door to find your friend isn’t a grind. Walking down the hallway for 30 minutes and then opening no less than 10 doors is a grind, because you will have already masted the activity long before you complete the challenge.


Some more interesting reads:
http://game-wisdom.com/critical/game-design-grind
https://omegathorion.wordpress.com/2013/01/01/game-design-the-nature-of-grinding/
https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/3596/what-is-the-best-way-to-eliminate-grinding-in-games
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_(gaming)

 

[Deareim]

Maybe but they did a lot for having credits!

 

[Sylveria]

Slave who doesn't see their chains. ^

Or... I don't envision chains where there are none.

Simply put- I don't limit myself, but by all means continue to do so if you choose.

I've freed my mind. I invite you to do the same.

 

[Red Anders]

Anything that consumes time and requires effort can be considered a "grind".

It's all subjective, and depends on the person's enjoyment of said activities.

I've a few friends who enjoy playing game markets instead of engaging with others directly in games- perhaps "accountants" would be a good way to describe them... does this mean their style of playing is wrong? No, if they're paying for the game- they can choose to play however they wish.

While I agree with the sentiment that convolution of the Engineering system in an attempt to make it more "complex" doesn't constitute "enjoyable" gameplay, to say that the game itself is a "grind" is an excuse and nothing more. IMO- all games should require time investment and effort, and if you're not willing to do so, then perhaps it's not an endeavor you should engage in.

TL;DR - The "grind" is in your mind.

Just curious, which of my roughly 3,000 hours spent playing the game do you feel don't represent an investment of time and/or effort?

What is it that people cannot grasp about the extremely simple premise of this thread, which is not 'I don't want to spend time on something' but 'one of the activities involved in engineering remains one that I can spend time on and at the end of that time be no closer to achieving the required outcome than I was when I began, thanks entirely to multi-layered RNG'

I mean seriously now, I just made a post about someone throwing that strawman in and literally the next post underneath it is another one returning the exact same strawman to the party. We don't want him thanks, he smells funny. Take him away!

 

[Sylveria]

Just curious, which of my roughly 3,000 hours spent playing the game do you feel don't represent an investment of time and/or effort?

What is it that people cannot grasp about the extremely simple premise of this thread, which is not 'I don't want to spend time on something' but 'one of the activities involved in engineering remains one that I can spend time on and at the end of that time be no closer to achieving the required outcome than I was when I began, thanks entirely to multi-layered RNG'

I mean seriously now, I just made a post about someone throwing that strawman in and literally the next post underneath it is another one returning the exact same strawman to the party. We don't want him thanks, he smells funny. Take him away!

I'm not throwing a "strawman" in- I'm simply being concise with description of interpretation of activities. Surely (as I've gathered from your intelligence in many prior engagements on the forums) you can see that.

As far as interpretation of your own invested time- I'm not you. I may or may not interpret activities the way you do, which was my entire point.

I see the word "grind" being thrown about a lot as an excuse to simplify game play because people don't want to put forth effort or invest time. In most cases, the arguments put forth are a "strawman" in themselves. "I don't enjoy "X" activity, therefore it should be simplified." (feel free to apply this to "instant transfers", "instant travel", or insert whatever other activity you wish here)

It's simple logic- if you don't enjoy the activity, don't do it.

 

[Electric Kite]

His point being that the number of such players can likely be counted on one hand. Therefore they constitute such a tiny minority of the community as a whole as to not have enough skin in the game to expect to be an influence on how the engineering system was designed or functions for 99.99999% of the community.

As this thread continues down the same utterly clueless path it was taking the last time I checked in, all I can say is WOW! The disconnect here between how the new system is designed to be used, and how so many in this thread are oblivious to that blatantly obvious use is amazing to witness.

As so many who have already finished engineering all of their fleets using the new system keep saying to the clueless...

Go out and collect G5 mats and data! Since you didn't bother to use your time wisely in the weeks leading up to the 3.0 release, (likely spending it instead complaining on here about the impending grind of the new system) where you could stockpile 150 to 200+ of the most valuable G5 mats and data based on what was revealed by playing the Beta, you now have to work within the 100 cap, but that is still plenty to flesh out all the other lower grade mats you need for most engineering tasks.

Thank you.

 

[Electric Kite]

Spotted in the wild (see cmdr AstirTII's fleet):

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/334612-Your-Fleet

I have about 10-12 fully engineered G5 ships myself, with a few waiting for me to start on them (they’re going to be waiting a while now ). Some of us just like the process outfitting and engineering ships for specific tasks, experimenting with different combinations and trade-offs, teasing out the best builds that we can etc.

Id say thats a minority/niche..that was my point.

 

[galahad2069]

Although I'm not pretentious enough to claim to "speak for others" I'll speak for myself- and yes, on occasion I do actually SC for hours happening on random signal sources.

I get that you do it sometimes, virtually everyone needs to do it occasionally (at least if they want to use engineers), but that wasn't the question.

My question was whether or not you could name a few people who actually enjoy SCing around in search of HGE.
(I can only hope that the way I posed it was grammatically correct as I'm not a native speaker of English.)

Since you named none, not even yourself, can I assume that you know of no such people for sure?

 

[Darty]

I'm not throwing a "strawman" in- I'm simply being concise with description of interpretation of activities. Surely (as I've gathered from your intelligence in many prior engagements on the forums) you can see that.

As far as interpretation of your own invested time- I'm not you. I may or may not interpret activities the way you do, which was my entire point.

I see the word "grind" being thrown about a lot as an excuse to simplify game play because people don't want to put forth effort or invest time. In most cases, the arguments put forth are a "strawman" in themselves. "I don't enjoy "X" activity, therefore it should be simplified." (feel free to apply this to "instant transfers", "instant travel", or insert whatever other activity you wish here)

It's simple logic- if you don't enjoy the activity, don't do it.

You are right that it's subjective, but pretty much any activity is. Some people actually enjoy solving complicated math problems, but most people don't. Just because a few weirdos like myself can find solving equations fun doesn't mean the vast majority of people who don't have no right to call that activity boring. Elite dangerous is a game. It is supposed to be about having fun. Not proving yourself, not earning your way, but enjoying yourself.

Barriers to entry and time requirements are a necessary part of providing an enjoyable experience. They have to be there for there to be a sense of accomplishment when the player finally does earn something or when they finally are able to complete a type of mission, ect. But they should not exist for the sake of their own existence, they should exist to enrich the players experience, to ADD to their enjoyment of the game.

When a mechanic becomes so punishing towards a player that they begin to resent it, it crosses the line from be fun gameplay to being a grind. When it takes so much time doing a boring or engaging activity to accomplish something that the players response to finally finishing said activity isn't "awesome, I did it! That was fun." but "thank Dog I FINALLY finished that I never want to do THAT again. Now time for something fun" it crosses the line from good gameplay to a grind.

Now this line is going to be different for different players, but a good game ideally provides enough separate routes to a specific end goal that every player is able to find one they enjoy or can at least tolerate. Eliteangerous does an ok job of this with credits, but fails spectacularly when it comes to material collection. The material trader COULD have alleviated some of this with decent trade rates, but it failed to do so.

That is the issue I have.

 

[Electric Kite]

Therefore they don't exist amirite?



Your opinion calls others mentally unhealthy and guilty of having life priorities you don't agree with. Pretty despicable as far as arguing goes.

The only "despicable" thing here is someone who gets offended on behalf of others. Thats literally the worst kind of human that exists today in my opinion.
My point was that this whole scenario is so niche its irrelavant to Elite. And you know what..yeah, im sticking by my point that its my opinion anyone who has 31 engineerd ships must have sacrificed some aspect of their life, lets be real here. On the old system..how long would that even take? Take a guess. To be frank..im not worried about offending anyone because i dont believe that person actually exists and the notion was just fabricated to try demonstrate a flimsy ill conceived arguement......

So..relax. Take a breath. No snowflakes were harmed today. And if they were..ive yet to see them...

 

[Red Anders]

I'm not throwing a "strawman" in- I'm simply being concise with description of interpretation of activities. Surely (as I've gathered from your intelligence in many prior engagements on the forums) you can see that.

As far as interpretation of your own invested time- I'm not you. I may or may not interpret activities the way you do, which was my entire point.

I see the word "grind" being thrown about a lot as an excuse to simplify game play because people don't want to put forth effort or invest time. In most cases, the arguments put forth are a "strawman" in themselves. "I don't enjoy "X" activity, therefore it should be simplified." (feel free to apply this to "instant transfers", "instant travel", or insert whatever other activity you wish here)

It's simple logic- if you don't enjoy the activity, don't do it.

Much of what you say is fair comment but in this specific instance, it's not so much a matter of whether I 'enjoy' the activity (I don't actually mind material collection per se as gameplay and never have) but the fact that there is no correlation whatsoever between the amount of time invested and whether any progress is made at all, as per the example given earlier in the thread of me spending approaching two hours in-game yesterday without even getting a single HGE USS spawned. That's the problem with the multi-layered RNG involved in collecting some of the G5 materials - it's not just that it takes a long time, it's that you can spend that long time on it and achieve literally nothing.

Material brokers could have gone some considerable way to offset, which from a gameplay perspective would have been a significant improvement that but as long as the exchange ratios are as punitive as they currently are for upward trades, they won't.

As I said earlier in the thread I neither want nor expect the game to be firing G5 materials at me from all directions every time I log on because that would be too easy and would remove any sense of achievement. However I remember a discussion with a developer from another game I used to play where he talked about players becoming disengaged from a game when they participate in activities but at the end of them are 'denied the intended (by the developers) feeling of success'

That's about as accurate a summary of the outcome of an unlucky G5 material collection session as you're likely to see and really, it should not all come down to luck. Luck has a place in games for sure but not as the main arbiter of progression. A better upward exchange rate for material brokers would go some considerable way towards mitigating that.

I did mention earlier that it's a very similar situation to when materials were first introduced; if you remember, FDev actually tripled the original drop rate when the penny finally dropped that players weren't just moaning about not being able to do everything in 10 minutes and that the rate of progress was in fact hilariously slow.

 

[rhiz]

His point being that the number of such players can likely be counted on one hand. Therefore they constitute such a tiny minority of the community as a whole as to not have enough skin in the game to expect to be an influence on how the engineering system was designed or functions for 99.99999% of the community.

As this thread continues down the same utterly clueless path it was taking the last time I checked in, all I can say is WOW! The disconnect here between how the new system is designed to be used, and how so many in this thread are oblivious to that blatantly obvious use is amazing to witness.

As so many who have already finished engineering all of their fleets using the new system keep saying to the clueless...

Go out and collect G5 mats and data! Since you didn't bother to use your time wisely in the weeks leading up to the 3.0 release, (likely spending it instead complaining on here about the impending grind of the new system) where you could stockpile 150 to 200+ of the most valuable G5 mats and data based on what was revealed by playing the Beta, you now have to work within the 100 cap, but that is still plenty to flesh out all the other lower grade mats you need for most engineering tasks.

Same person, right?

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/412835-High-Grade-Emissions-USS-Spawn-Rates-and-G5-Material-Provided?

All that many of us here are suggesting is that given the rarity and unpredictability of G5 drops, either the trade ratio for G5 needs adjustment so that trading up becomes more viable or, as you suggest in the thread above, the materials need to spawn in a more transparent and predictable manner. This is especially true since we now need at least 10 rolls to complete each module at G5. There’s lots of good things to be said about the new system, I just think that it needs tweaking. There’s really no need to be so irascible.

 

[Kilostream]

...a bit of a rant...

You didn't like the old version and now you don't like the new version.

I got on just fine with the old version and have very-nicely-engineered-everything as a result - however new engineering looks like I can do some stuff even better, so I'll be getting on just fine with that, too.

If you want lots of HGE materials, go get them - the places where they are to be found are well documented, and if you're failing, you have missed something - I know that because I too, was missing a lot when I didn't know how to find the materials.

Oh and by the way, trading up is a mug's game - trading down is where it's at - I just traded in a handful of MEF and now have 150 CIF to burn on dirty drives.
You still have to go material gathering, you just gotta know what to pick up to use and what to pick up to trade - for what it's worth, bottleneck materials were the thorn in the side of my previous engineering efforts, and with this patch, that problem is behind me.

I think the key is finding enjoyment in what you're doing - The grind is in the mind.

 

[Electric Kite]

Man this is some entertaining sh*t