PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[PeLucheuh]

And if you actually read what I said, ganking in general is addressed at least in part by the general consequences - not one specific change that may be "specifically" addressing a subset of the gankers.

There is no getting around the point that ganking is not actually in the spirit of intended ED gameplay. The general mentality of habitual gankers seems to fall into the same category as those DB-OBE singled out as not wanting to deal with when he described his vision for PvP in ED.

As a non native english speaker, it is possible i misunderstood the use of "to address ganking".
For me it implies there is an issue with "ganking activity" in general when we all know it is perfectly in the spirit of intended ED gameplay.
My apologies if it is the case.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

As a non native english speaker, it is possible i misunderstood the use of "to address ganking".
For me it implies there is an issue with "ganking activity" in general when we all know it is perfectly in the spirit of intended ED gameplay.
My apologies if it is the case.

Can you explain in what way you think ganking is within the spirit of the intended ED gameplay? My opinion on ganking might be swayed by a clear and concise explanation.

 

[lenna]

As a non native english speaker, it is possible i misunderstood the use of "to address ganking".
For me it implies there is an issue with "ganking activity" in general when we all know it is perfectly in the spirit of intended ED gameplay.
My apologies if it is the case.

Individual ganking incidents maybe not in direct contravention of the "spirit of intended ED gameplay", but habitual and frequent ganking clearly is (not in keeping with the "spirit of intended ED gameplay").

The consequences have increased for general criminal activity and that should help to hinder if not curtail habitual and frequent ganking (at least in law enforced systems).

CLARIFICATION: Ganking meaning more specifically unprovoked and over-powered attacking of targets with practically zero chance of them escaping the attack - rather than the wider case of in-game unprovoked attacking of targets which is an in-game crime.

 

[Riverside]

There is no 'spirit of the rules', there are only rules and if the rule isn't well defined the boundaries can be explored by the adventurous player.

Don't apply your personal rules to others, they only apply to you. Play your own way, let them play theirs.

 

[Electric Kite]

Can you explain in what way you think ganking is within the spirit of the intended ED gameplay? My opinion on ganking might be swayed by a clear and concise explanation.

Before he does that maybe you should define what your understanding of the term ganking is and then we can go from there?
People are very quick to cry foul when they are on the recieiving end of any encounter in this game after all.

Ill throw in my two cents - Ganking (in a video game) is defined as to use underhand means to defeat or kill (a less experienced opponent).

Now if a Commander decides to interdict and kill a player, be he in a trade ship or a corvette, for me...thats intended gameplay...not underhanded means...and not ganking. So I see his point.
If commanders were not allowed to do this ..well..what game would we have? Its called Elite Dangerous.

Right?

Just to add to this point. The problem here is not the game itself...but the people who play it. These "Gankers" are the ones doing this after all. Humans can be sh*tty people. We all know this.
Not that i think they are being sh*tty in this example but i fully get that there are some cases where a guy in a corvette is gunning for a novice trader just to be "that guy".

What I like about this though is that its an accurate reflection of humans. And if we ever did colonize other plantes and did have FTL travel, space would be full of murderous trigger happy pilots because of course it would. Its our nature. Just look at our own planet now. So in this sense..the Elite universe feels very **real** to me and i think is one of its biggest strenghts. Your not significant in this univerese and its bloody dangerous and we are potentially..the worst thing about it.

And thats why i love this game.

 

[Riverside]

Before he does that maybe you should define what your understanding of the term ganking is and then we can go from there?
People are very quick to cry foul when they are on the recieivng end of any encounter in this game after all.

What's your definition?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

As a non native english speaker, it is possible i misunderstood the use of "to address ganking".
For me it implies there is an issue with "ganking activity" in general when we all know it is perfectly in the spirit of intended ED gameplay.
My apologies if it is the case.

Maybe looking at this from a complete different perspective might clarify my take on it. I'm not going into "the spirit of" because that way madness lies.

Flying shieldless in Open in order to maximize profits is allowed in this game. But the consequence is, if you're caught, you're toast.
Continually ganking other CMDRs is allowed in this game. But the consequence is ....

That last part is what C&P attempts to fill in. Whether it's effective or not, is another thing.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Before he does that maybe you should define what your understanding of the term ganking is and then we can go from there?
People are very quick to cry foul when they are on the recieiving end of any encounter in this game after all.

Ill throw in my two cents Ganking (in a video game) is defined as to use underhand means to defeat or kill (a less experienced opponent).

Now if a Commander decides to interdict and kill a player, wether he is in a trade ship or a corvette, for me...thats intended gampleay...and not ganking. So i see his point.

"CLARIFICATION: Ganking meaning more specifically unprovoked and over-powered attacking of targets with practically zero chance of them escaping the attack - rather than the wider case of in-game unprovoked attacking of targets which is an in-game crime."

I reckon rlsg's definition hits the spot concisely.

Let me cite an example : a wing of SDC flying to a planet surface where there are ships belonging to Science!-type players investigating, say, Thargoid Wreck sites, and just blowing up the ships. Subsequently, chasing after the owner's SRV's, toying with them before blowing those up. Due to the way Thargoid Wreck sites work, players cannot just dismiss their ships, because the ships need to be close-by, for good reasons (corrosive nature of alien items which need to be stored in ships, recalled ships will not land inside the Alien Wreckage zone meaning already-damaged SRV's would be required to drive quite far in very rough terrain.) Even if a player was in their ship, escape is nigh on impossible due to not being able to Low or High Wake away because by the time they have reached sufficient altitude above the planet surface to get out of the masslock zone, the rabidly-fitted SDC ships will have blown them up.

I say that's ganking - and it's very much outwith the spirit of the game. Why bother including such content as Alien Wreck sites if all that's going to happen is scumbag players ganking players wanting to consume that content?

So I'm interested in why that type of ganking is to be considered within the spirit of the game. I am here to have my opinion swayed.

 

[frostypaw]

I'm not sure I care too much what definition the pro shoot'em'up side want to use today.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ganking

Ganking is the process in which a group of charecters gang up on one or more players that do not have a chance to defend themselves, Or when one high level player does the same action to a player way below his or her own level

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gank

To kill much weaker players in an online video game in such a way that they cannot defend themselves. Common methods include attacking in much greater numbers or taking a well-equipped high-level character to assault players in a starting area.

https://www.alteredgamer.com/pc-gam...xplanation-of-the-mmorpg-gaming-term-ganking/

Ganking is when a much higher level player comes along and wipes you out without warning, and then normally "camps" (stays right on top of your body) your corpse and kills you each time you resurrect. Usually, you get ganked in an area when you are already fighting a mob so that you have a hard time turning on the other player and killing them, yet they still get the kill point for you. Essentially, they are cheating to get their PvP kill point on a lower level player where they are certain to win the fight. The big issue with ganking is that it is not really considered acceptable in-game behavior for anyone - yet people still do it. Overall in the MMORPG gaming community, ganking is normally considered dishonorable and unfair, and usually just down right mean.

That last one in particular continues on through much of the distraction efforts that will follow this post.

If commanders were not allowed to do this ..well..what game would we have? Its called Elite Dangerous.

Right?

People who don't even know why the game is called what it is are in no position whatsoever to be telling other players how to play the game. Suggest you learn something about what you're playing and THEN try and tell people who do know about the game how they should play.

Link to correct spot: https://youtu.be/rOYhoFYIWmw?t=303
[video=youtube_share;rOYhoFYIWmw]https://youtu.be/rOYhoFYIWmw?t=303[/video]

 

[Electric Kite]

"CLARIFICATION: Ganking meaning more specifically unprovoked and over-powered attacking of targets with practically zero chance of them escaping the attack - rather than the wider case of in-game unprovoked attacking of targets which is an in-game crime."

I reckon rlsg's definition hits the spot concisely.

Let me cite an example : a wing of SDC flying to a planet surface where there are ships belonging to Science!-type players investigating, say, Thargoid Wreck sites, and just blowing up the ships. Subsequently, chasing after the owner's SRV's, toying with them before blowing those up. Due to the way Thargoid Wreck sites work, players cannot just dismiss their ships, because the ships need to be close-by, for good reasons (corrosive nature of alien items which need to be stored in ships, recalled ships will not land inside the Alien Wreckage zone meaning already-damaged SRV's would be required to drive quite far in very rough terrain.) Even if a player was in their ship, escape is nigh on impossible due to not being able to Low or High Wake away because by the time they have reached sufficient altitude above the planet surface to get out of the masslock zone, the rabidly-fitted SDC ships will have blown them up.

I say that's ganking - and it's very much outwith the spirit of the game. Why bother including such content as Alien Wreck sites if all that's going to happen is scumbag players ganking players wanting to consume that content?

So I'm interested in why that type of ganking is to be considered within the spirit of the game. I am here to have my opinion swayed.

The problem here is not the game itself...but the people who play it. These "Gankers" are the ones doing this after all. Humans can be sh*tty people. We all know this.
Not that i think they are being sh*tty in this example but i fully get that there are some cases where a guy in a corvette is gunning for a novice trader just to be "that guy".

What I like about this though is that its an accurate reflection of humans. And if we ever did colonize other plantes and did have FTL travel, space would be full of murderous trigger happy pilots because of course it would. Its our nature. Just look at our own planet now. So in this sense..the Elite universe feels very **real** to me and i think is one of its biggest strenghts. Youre not significant in this univerese and its bloody dangerous and we are potentially..the worst thing about it.

And thats why i love this game.

 

[Electric Kite]

I'm not sure I care too much what definition the pro shoot'em'up side want to use today.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ganking


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gank


https://www.alteredgamer.com/pc-gam...xplanation-of-the-mmorpg-gaming-term-ganking/


That last one in particular continues on through much of the distraction efforts that will follow this post.



People who don't even know why the game is called what it is are in no position whatsoever to be telling other players how to play the game. Suggest you learn something about what you're playing and THEN try and tell people who do know about the game how they should play.

Link to correct spot: https://youtu.be/rOYhoFYIWmw?t=303
https://youtu.be/rOYhoFYIWmw?t=303

Hey man. Good to see you again.

URBAN DICTIONARY LOL

A website with a brilliant concept that could have become great if it hadn't been overrun by a mob of losers.

Ill just use the real dictionary thanks..

I hope you dont mind, but im talking to this guy in a civil manner and dont plan on making it personal with him, nor do i assume he wants to with me. Anyway, im putting you on my ignore list happy to say so this will be our last exchange. Makes me feel good to know you know i will never see your reply or have to consider your frankly boring agression.

I hope the vast majorty of your future posts make sense to someone.


o7

 

[frostypaw]

feels very **real** to me

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever realistic about that aspect - those people would quickly end up in prisons and never fly again which would control their numbers.

Elite? Rebuy, pay off your fines with your exploited billions - carry on as if nothing happened.

Total joke to suggest it's at all realistic.

Anyway, im putting you on my ignore list

You do have a tendency to ignore anything that proves you're talking rubbish, so no real change.

 

[PeLucheuh]

There is no 'spirit of the rules', there are only rules and if the rule isn't well defined the boundaries can be explored by the adventurous player.

Don't apply your personal rules to others, they only apply to you. Play your own way, let them play theirs.

Are you trying to apply your own personal rule on others ?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The problem here is not the game itself...but the people who play it. These "Gankers" are the ones doing this after all. Humans can be sh*tty people. We all know this.
Not that i think they are being sh*tty in this example but i fully get that there are some cases where a guy in a corvette is gunning for a novice trader just to be "that guy".

What I like about this though is that its an accurate reflection of humans. And if we ever did colonize other plantes and did have FTL travel, space would be full of murderous trigger happy pilots because of course it would. Its our nature. Just look at our own planet now. So in this sense..the Elite universe feels very **real** to me and i think is one of its biggest strenghts. Your not significant in this univerese and its bloody dangerous and we are potentially..the worst thing about it.

And thats why i love this game.

Human nature gravitates toward societies. Societies need law and law enforcement. If crime were allowed to continue unfettered the society dies. If theft remained unpunished, why produce anything? If people are allowed to kill each other on the drop of a hat, we will self extinct.

Since Elite portrays a society that has gone on for thousands of years, it means it's regulated.

 

[Riverside]

Are you trying to apply your own personal rule on others ?

Ha! Sure, why not? You have to do it now

 

[Electric Kite]

Human nature gravitates toward societies. Societies need law and law enforcement. If crime were allowed to continue unfettered the society dies. If theft remained unpunished, why produce anything? If people are allowed to kill each other on the drop of a hat, we will self extinct.

Since Elite portrays a society that has gone on for 3400 years, it means it's regulated.

But Ziggy there is Law in the elite Universe.
The same way there is Law in our own real world.

But thats not going to stop some humans from doing what humans do.

Sure they will be punished, in real life AND in this game..its not like there is Zero consequences...especially now with the update. Im just sayiing to remove this type of person from this game would be to remove a part of the game thats, in my opinion, one of its biggest strenghts.

I dont like Harry Potter..as a player or potentially as human being..lol

But im actually glad hes out there representing the worst traits of the human race because thats **real** to me.

 

[lenna]

There is no 'spirit of the rules', there are only rules

False - even in the real world the hard and fast written rules do not explicitly define what people can and can not get away with (there are typically exceptions and things not expressly covered). If it did, there would be no need for courts of law.

However, we are not talking about rules specifically but rather the design intent behind ED as clearly declared by FD, there in lies a definition of "the spirit of intended gameplay".

When some PvPers start questioning why PvP is unpopular, what behaviours they choose to engage in become relevant. It is not about applying my personal rules to anyone else's gameplay, but rather pointing out how their own gameplay choices may be adversely affect their own experience.

FD are clearly against certain kinds of gameplay being engaged in with-in the gameplay environment they own and to a degree control. Considering the unilateral changes to C&P introduced in 3.0, that clearly includes habitual and overly-aggressive behaviours whether PvE or PvP in nature. That is not to say such behaviours are expressly prohibited but they are not intended to be unconstrained nor without consequences. In the context of PvP, such behaviours will naturally reflect badly on the PvP community in general and by consequence have a negative effect on PvP popularity.

You can try to blame game balance for overly aggressive behaviours but that is a bit like blaming a hammer for a user missing a nail and hitting their thumb or for using the hammer to attack someone.

 

[PeLucheuh]

Maybe looking at this from a complete different perspective might clarify my take on it. I'm not going into "the spirit of" because that way madness lies.

Flying shieldless in Open in order to maximize profits is allowed in this game. But the consequence is, if you're caught, you're toast.
Continually ganking other CMDRs is allowed in this game. But the consequence is ....

That last part is what C&P attempts to fill in. Whether it's effective or not, is another thing.

Absolutely Ziggy, and what you wrote was perfect (imo). Being consequences free was the issue.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

But Ziggy there is Law in the elite Universe.
The same way there is Law in our own real world.

But thats not going to stop some humans from doing what humans do.

Sure they will be punished, in real life AND in this game..its not like there is Zero consequences...especially now with the update. Im just sayiing to remove this type of person from this game would be to remove a part of the game that's, in my opinion one of its biggest strenghts.

I was commenting on your portrayal of an accurate reflection of humans. Which it isn't. Most humans will adhere to the rules of societies. That's why democracies have severe penalties for example for murder. In your statement: "space would be full of murderous trigger happy pilots because of course it would", I feel "of course it would" a little lacking. You follow this by: "Its our nature. Just look at our own planet now."

In America we recently had school shootings. What reaction did human nature provide? Shrug? No, human nature was revolted by it. Of course they were. The Elite universe is nothing like our planet now. Elite isn't very real. It isn't it's biggest strength. People like SDC would be hunted and removed from society.

Absolutely Ziggy, and what you wrote was perfect (imo). Being consequences free was the issue.

Hang on. We can't agree. A glorious careless bear can't be seen agreeing with a dirty lowlife ganker. Think of both our reputations!

 

[PeLucheuh]

Hang on. We can't agree. A glorious careless bear can't be seen agreeing with a dirty lowlife ganker. Think of both our reputations!

I DISAGREE ON THAT!!! (nobody will notice )