The internal contradiction of Elite Dangerous.

[CMNDRMK]

looking out the window seems so totally real.
interacting with the social simulation seems so totally fake.

Its so jarring.

Sorry for the rant o get a blog, but the above makes playing this game so frustrating. If only the social simulation could be half as good as looking out the window. Instead it just seems so utterly contrived.

What has prompted this vent o get a blog, not this post again is just the venting needed after restarting the game on my sons X Box. Its nice playing on a hoooge TV screen.

What is not so nice is just how utterly fake and easy the economy seems now, compared to when I first started out on my PC. Yes the game had plenty of fakeness then, but at least the social simulation seemed somewhat more "real" in that the game was not in a massive rush to give money for doing essentially nothing.

I have had to spend basically zero time in the sidey, due to getting regular 100K missions that require 1 or 2 jumps at most, nothing happens on these missions, I have had a couple of interdictions but they were cake to avoid. Mostly its money for spending a long time in super cruise.

I really like exploring so I know there is a game style I will enjoy after grinding my way up the ships, I like pew pew a bit but cant pew pew on a x box controller, can barely dock with it.

If I was starting the game totally new and after the initial look out the window rush had worn off, I wonder if I would stick with it.

I dont necessarily want dark souls in space but some element of challenge would be appreciated. However that is not really the core issue, its the jarring unreality of the reward in relation to the task needed to gain the reward. This jarring unreality is then leveraged massively by the excellence of the flight simulation.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

looking out the window seems so totally real.
interacting with the social simulation seems so totally fake.

Its so jarring.

Sorry for the rant o get a blog, but the above makes playing this game so frustrating. If only the social simulation could be half as good as looking out the window. Instead it just seems so utterly contrived.

What has prompted this vent o get a blog, not this post again is just the venting needed after restarting the game on my sons X Box. Its nice playing on a hoooge TV screen.

What is not so nice is just how utterly fake and easy the economy seems now, compared to when I first started out on my PC. Yes the game had plenty of fakeness then, but at least the social simulation seemed somewhat more "real" in that the game was not in a massive rush to give money for doing essentially nothing.

I have had to spend basically zero time in the sidey, due to getting regular 100K missions that require 1 or 2 jumps at most, nothing happens on these missions, I have had a couple of interdictions but they were cake to avoid. Mostly its money for spending a long time in super cruise.

I really like exploring so I know there is a game style I will enjoy after grinding my way up the ships, I like pew pew a bit but cant pew pew on a x box controller, can barely dock with it.

If I was starting the game totally new and after the initial look out the window rush had worn off, I wonder if I would stick with it.

I dont necessarily want dark souls in space but some element of challenge would be appreciated. However that is not really the core issue, its the jarring unreality of the reward in relation to the task needed to gain the reward. This jarring unreality is then leveraged massively by the excellence of the flight simulation.

I agree. When I started you got missions for 500 credits, it took me 2-3 months to get a Cobra and had a massive sense of achievement. Now it's in the 100,000s and bam straight into a Cobra after one otr two missions. Might as well get rid of the starter ships and start them in Cobra's from the beginning.

 

[CMNDRMK]

I agree. When I started you got missions for 500 credits, it took me 2-3 months to get a Cobra and had a massive sense of achievement. Now it's in the 100,000s and bam straight into a Cobra after one otr two missions. Might as well get rid of the starter ships and start them in Cobra's from the beginning.

Yea getting the Cobra seemed like a real satisfying achievement. Not at all like that now.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I concur.

It's far, far too easy to make money in the game as it is now. I remember I spent the best part of four months maining a Viper Mk. III, and it wasn't only because I love the ship.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I agree. When I started you got missions for 500 credits, it took me 2-3 months to get a Cobra and had a massive sense of achievement.

I probably started at about the same time, then - at least, 2-3 months to get a Cobra seems about right for how long it took me. Spent a lot of time hopping around near Alioth in a C-rated Adder, trying to raise the money. Cobra to Asp was quicker, though.

On the other hand, the first Triple Elite after the release of 1.0 (which would at the time have been 1 billion trade, 80 million exploration, some tens of millions combat) ... only took a month. And getting the Anaconda was pretty early on in that process.

There have always been ways to make lots of credits in a very short time. The difference now is that with a much larger player base, the increased size and numbers of coordinated player groups, a much bigger system of searchable resources, and some higher payouts at the basic level ... people find them a lot quicker, communicate them a lot further, and use them a lot more.

Back in 1.0 and the early releases after it, we had...
- Seeking Luxuries
- AFK turret boats parked next to a capital ship in a CZ
- Wing teleportation trading
- Excessively stackable Powerplay price effects
...and probably a bunch more I've either forgotten or never heard about in the first place.

By 1.3 - when general earnings were still pretty low, for the most part - you had all the tools needed for focused Painite mining to earn 30-60 MCr/hour ... which was still the case all the way through 2.4 ... and is now probably more like 50-100 with the Painite price buff and the ability to selectively ignore fragments in 3.0. That was probably actually *better* than half the stuff that gets thrown out as examples of top earners throughout the 2.0-2.2 period, but it took months for the small mining community to figure out how, it requires skill and practice (ideally in a wing!) to get that much from it, and it's still not widely known because none of the big-name Youtubers are miners

 

[CMNDRMK]

Not really convinced by this argument.

I am sure that a massive player base contributes to easier higher content earning. It has nothing to with dock at space port, click on mission, get offered 100K for 1 jump mission. Its this making the journey to Cobra really easy.

 

[Stealthie]

Said it before but the best time, by far, that I had in ED was when I first took the plunge to buy an AspX.

I flew my Sidey until I had plenty of credits for a Cobra and then I flew the Cobra for a long time, without even considering a different ship.

Took me about a month (IIRC) to save up around Cr10m to buy the AspX and that was gone in a flash, after starting to equip it.
I did a couple of missions in the AspX, fitted with an ADS and A-rated FSD while everything else was E/D or C-rated and then nearly got blown out of the sky.
After that I was back in the Cobra for another month, saving up to do the AspX properly, and then went to have another go.
After that, I spent around 3 months doing all sorts of stuff in the Asp, living on a shoestring with bankrupcy only ever 2 re-buys away, running 2 or 3 missions just so I could buy one extra weapon or uprate the thrusters from C to B spec.

And it was great.

Dunno whether newbies get the same experience now in their first Anaconda or whether they just miss out on it completely.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I probably started at about the same time, then - at least, 2-3 months to get a Cobra seems about right for how long it took me. Spent a lot of time hopping around near Alioth in a C-rated Adder, trying to raise the money. Cobra to Asp was quicker, though.

On the other hand, the first Triple Elite after the release of 1.0 (which would at the time have been 1 billion trade, 80 million exploration, some tens of millions combat) ... only took a month. And getting the Anaconda was pretty early on in that process.

There have always been ways to make lots of credits in a very short time. The difference now is that with a much larger player base, the increased size and numbers of coordinated player groups, a much bigger system of searchable resources, and some higher payouts at the basic level ... people find them a lot quicker, communicate them a lot further, and use them a lot more.

Back in 1.0 and the early releases after it, we had...
- Seeking Luxuries
- AFK turret boats parked next to a capital ship in a CZ
- Wing teleportation trading
- Excessively stackable Powerplay price effects
...and probably a bunch more I've either forgotten or never heard about in the first place.

By 1.3 - when general earnings were still pretty low, for the most part - you had all the tools needed for focused Painite mining to earn 30-60 MCr/hour ... which was still the case all the way through 2.4 ... and is now probably more like 50-100 with the Painite price buff and the ability to selectively ignore fragments in 3.0. That was probably actually *better* than half the stuff that gets thrown out as examples of top earners throughout the 2.0-2.2 period, but it took months for the small mining community to figure out how, it requires skill and practice (ideally in a wing!) to get that much from it, and it's still not widely known because none of the big-name Youtubers are miners

There is also to add that fuel prices and repair prices got drastically reduced.

 

[Muetdhiver]

I don't get this idea that new players hop into an anaconda and somehow miss out the game.

I have friends that are "new" and got right past the ASP level of ships and went straight into clipper/conda.
Enjoyed it. Then bought an iCourrier, enjoyed it, then tried something else.

Having money allow to access the gameplay and the actual meat of the game. Doing the same trivial task 734 times
is not fun, nor rewarding and brings nothing interesting to the table.

Unless one is a player with no imagination and can't find tasks with instrinsic rewards (fun) rather than being corraled
into sub-par gameplay with external rewards (credits to buy ship X, Y or Z).

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Said it before but the best time, by far, that I had in ED was when I first took the plunge to buy an AspX.

I flew my Sidey until I had plenty of credits for a Cobra and then I flew the Cobra for a long time, without even considering a different ship.

Took me about a month (IIRC) to save up around Cr10m to buy the AspX and that was gone in a flash, after starting to equip it.
I did a couple of missions in the AspX, fitted with an ADS and A-rated FSD while everything else was E/D or C-rated and then nearly got blown out of the sky.
After that I was back in the Cobra for another month, saving up to do the AspX properly, and then went to have another go.
After that, I spent around 3 months doing all sorts of stuff in the Asp, living on a shoestring with bankrupcy only ever 2 re-buys away, running 2 or 3 missions just so I could buy one extra weapon or uprate the thrusters from C to B spec.

And it was great.

Dunno whether newbies get the same experience now in their first Anaconda or whether they just miss out on it completely.

It's the reason why I keep my bank balance below 20million and only fly small and medium ships. It's just much more fine then having the feeling of invincibilty.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I don't get this idea that new players hop into an anaconda and somehow miss out the game.

I have friends that are "new" and got right past the ASP level of ships and went straight into clipper/conda.
Enjoyed it. Then bought an iCourrier, enjoyed it, then tried something else.

Having money allow to access the gameplay and the actual meat of the game. Doing the same trivial task 734 times
is not fun, nor rewarding and brings nothing interesting to the table.

Unless one is a player with no imagination and can't find tasks with instrinsic rewards (fun) rather than being corraled
into sub-par gameplay with external rewards (credits to buy ship X, Y or Z).

Money does not give you access to the gameplay. The basic gameplay is exactly the same whether you are doing it in a sidewinder, hauler or anaconda. The difference is scale, ease and monetary reward.

The only thing you can't do in the small ships is PvP, unless your opponent is in a small ship too.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Money does not give you access to the gameplay. The basic gameplay is exactly the same whether you are doing it in a sidewinder, hauler or anaconda. The difference is scale, ease and monetary reward.

The only thing you can't do in the small ships is PvP, unless your opponent is in a small ship too.

Sorry max, it's not the same. Canyon racing with a sidewinder or a top of the line racing iCourrier is incomparable.
Try fighting thargoids solo in a Cobra. Try reaching Rho Cass with a sidewinder with vanilla FSD.

Try doing a wing assassination mission solo in a stock eagle. You can't. You need 100M to even try it.

So stop with this old canard. Please.

They are the same. Like driving a old lemon and a ferrari is the same.

 

[CMNDRMK]

I don't get this idea that new players hop into an anaconda and somehow miss out the game.

I have friends that are "new" and got right past the ASP level of ships and went straight into clipper/conda.
Enjoyed it. Then bought an iCourrier, enjoyed it, then tried something else.

Having money allow to access the gameplay and the actual meat of the game. Doing the same trivial task 734 times
is not fun, nor rewarding and brings nothing interesting to the table.

Unless one is a player with no imagination and can't find tasks with instrinsic rewards (fun) rather than being corraled
into sub-par gameplay with external rewards (credits to buy ship X, Y or Z).

You are missing a critical part of my original post.

Money is not just a reward, its also content. Money must be given via interaction with the social simulation. When you get given a large sum of money for doing something trivial and easy it makes the social simulation side of the game seem massively fake. Which is in stark contrast to the rest of the game.


That said, I am doing much more repetitive stuff now than when I got 500cr a mission. All I have done is fly from A 2 B, yes I have got a better ship quicker, but before I had to do all sorts of things to make money and finding those ways was rewarding and I felt much much much more immersion. Just finding a mission was a mission, and I liked that, and I think its that which requires imagination to enjoy.

 

[Muetdhiver]

You are missing a critical part of my original post.

Money is not just a reward, its also content. Money must be given via interaction with the social simulation. When you get given a large sum of money for doing something trivial and easy it makes the social simulation side of the game seem massively fake. Which is in stark contrast to the rest of the game.


That said, I am doing much more repetitive stuff now than when I got 500cr a mission. All I have done is fly from A 2 B, yes I have got a better ship quicker, but before I had to do all sorts of things to make money and finding those ways was rewarding and I felt much much much more immersion. Just finding a mission was a mission, and I liked that, and I think its that which requires imagination to enjoy.

100% agree with you here.

This is why I said many times that trivial stuff like passenger haulage should pay less than really hard stuff like killing a basilisk or a medusa. Or reaching Rho Cas, or doing elite assassination missions.

What I'm also saying is that going back to the penny level payouts of 1.0 will not work out. Some stuff (if possible difficult stuff) should pay a lot. Trivial and low risk stuff should pay little.

ED seems to be : if it's safe and easy, it'll pay a lot. If it's hard and risky, you work for free.

 

[KellyR]

Concerning money so easy to come by, there's something else to consider here. Yes, the mission rewards have increased. But even if they were the same, it wouldn't take you nearly as long to get into a cobra now as it did then, although, I do admit it would take somewhat longer than it takes now.

The reason for this is simple. When you first started, you were a raw newbie. You didn't know how to land, you could barely get through the mail slot. You didn't know how to smuggle goods into a spinning station or trade properly. You didn't have all the experience in the map knowing it's little intricacies. There were dozens of things you didn't know. If you start over now, it's as if you have a 4 year college degree (I'm speaking of the ones who clear their save, not the new guys). You have all that experience. And in this game as in life, experience will take you far.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Sorry max, it's not the same. Canyon racing with a sidewinder or a top of the line racing iCourrier is incomparable.
Try fighting thargoids solo in a Cobra. Try reaching Rho Cass with a sidewinder with vanilla FSD.

Try doing a wing assassination mission solo in a stock eagle. You can't. You need 100M to even try it.

So stop with this old canard. Please.

They are the same. Like driving a old lemon and a ferrari is the same.

Canyon racing and anything that is not part of the core gameplay isn't valid for this conversation in my view. We are talking about the basic gameplay mechanics yes, combat, trade, exploration, smuggling, pirating.

These can all be done in any ship you have. You do not need 100s millions of credits. As I said though the bigger the ship the easier some stuff gets, like exploration becomes easier if you have an AspX etc. Doesn't stop what I am saying from being valid, as it is basically the truth.

As to assasination missions you can do them in a sidewinder as the missions are based around your combat rank. If you are harmless in a sidewinder you will get a harmless person to assassinate, and yes they are easy even in a stock ship.

 

[CMNDRMK]

Concerning money so easy to come by, there's something else to consider here. Yes, the mission rewards have increased. But even if they were the same, it wouldn't take you nearly as long to get into a cobra now as it did then, although, I do admit it would take somewhat longer than it takes now.

The reason for this is simple. When you first started, you were a raw newbie. You didn't know how to land, you could barely get through the mail slot. You didn't know how to smuggle goods into a spinning station or trade properly. You didn't have all the experience in the map knowing it's little intricacies. There were dozens of things you didn't know. If you start over now, it's as if you have a 4 year college degree (I'm speaking of the ones who clear their save, not the new guys). You have all that experience. And in this game as in life, experience will take you far.

Yea for sure it would be a bit quicker, but no way as quick as it is now, no amount of experience in 1.0 in a sidey gets you close to 100K 1 jump missions in 3.0.

Also, its been a while since I flew a sidey, but I am sure the jump range has been massively increased, or maybe thats because I could upgrade the drive so easily and quickly that is colouring my memory.

One thing I remember about my original start was that the money from system scans was a big deal to me in value but getting the 20L years to sell it was a real challenge as I was effectively locked in by jump range. I had to work my way down a specific route where the next system was always in range. I had fun working that out and doing it.

 

[Stealthie]

I don't get this idea that new players hop into an anaconda and somehow miss out the game.

I have friends that are "new" and got right past the ASP level of ships and went straight into clipper/conda.
Enjoyed it. Then bought an iCourrier, enjoyed it, then tried something else.

But, if you're able to do that, you're not getting the same experience of progression with any sense of jeopardy.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

100% agree with you here.

This is why I said many times that trivial stuff like passenger haulage should pay less than really hard stuff like killing a basilisk or a medusa. Or reaching Rho Cas, or doing elite assassination missions.

What I'm also saying is that going back to the penny level payouts of 1.0 will not work out. Some stuff (if possible difficult stuff) should pay a lot. Trivial and low risk stuff should pay little.

ED seems to be : if it's safe and easy, it'll pay a lot. If it's hard and risky, you work for free.

This is one of my bugbears in the game. Low risk seems to pay loads, when low risk pays peanuts. Seems like the wrong way round.

But, if you're able to do that, you're not getting the same experience of progression with any sense of jeopardy.

Agreed. It all feels meaningless and unimportant.

 

[CMNDRMK]

Canyon racing and anything that is not part of the core gameplay isn't valid for this conversation in my view. We are talking about the basic gameplay mechanics yes, combat, trade, exploration, smuggling, pirating.

These can all be done in any ship you have. You do not need 100s millions of credits. As I said though the bigger the ship the easier some stuff gets, like exploration becomes easier if you have an AspX etc. Doesn't stop what I am saying from being valid, as it is basically the truth.

As to assasination missions you can do them in a sidewinder as the missions are based around your combat rank. If you are harmless in a sidewinder you will get a harmless person to assassinate, and yes they are easy even in a stock ship.

Also if the best content is locked behind millions of credits that is just bad game design. There needs to be fun things to do in starter ships.

I picked this up on Xbox because it was on an offer. I have seen several commanders in noobie ships in my stellar neighbourhood. I wonder how long they will stick around if the start game is mostly a repetitive unchallenging grind to a multi million credit ship. The challenge of a grind, should not be the grind itself.