Elite has Grown Beyond its Capacity. Is it time for a new Elite game?

[Ian Doncaster]

I'm not a programmer, so I was amused and curious when I saw the term "spaghetti code" used on here a few months ago. Apparently it refers to a phenomenon in which a program is so complicated and its code so intertwined, that making a change in one part does crazy and unexpected stuff in totally different areas, causing things to break whenever something is changed.

I've certainly seen a lot of spaghetti code. That is not the visible problem with Elite (Do they have actual spaghetti code to deal with underneath? Only they know. Probably not as such, though.).

The problem with Elite and bug-fixing/introduction is, in short, that the game concept was "multiplayer Elite" [1]. Obviously, trying again with "Elite 5" is unlikely to help there.

In a bit more detail: the game has "spaghetti mechanics" (or as they'd be called on a forum which hadn't decided to give a different definition to the term, "emergent gameplay"). The code can be perfectly written, perfectly compartmentalised, fully unit-tested, every single function doing exactly what it is documented to do no more, no less ... it won't stop the problems.


For example: there was a recent change to allow ships from non-resident factions to appear in systems. This makes perfect sense: you see the resident factions' ships arriving from hyperspace and departing to other systems, so you should be able to see them in those other systems. The code to do this has been perfectly bug-tested (well, let's assume that, it looks okay anyway) and is generating exactly the proportions of resident, nearby and distant factions required by the design specification.

This change has, however, broken many sorts of massacre missions, by diluting the resident factions to the point that they don't appear in sufficient quantities to reasonably complete the mission within the time limit. The massacre missions themselves are still being generated to the specification, too.


This is a problem - that sort of issue is not something you can usefully unit test for (all the units work correctly) and it's not something you can practically acceptance test for (because there are so many components and so many interactions between them you'd be accepting a months-long full code freeze before each release) - but it's basically not a solvable one without either hiring literally thousands of QA staff or developing AI agents able to play the game to run tests in an automated fashion. (The latter would make great persistent NPCs on their days off, of course)


It also means that certain types of bug can end up with an impact way bigger than the actual effect despite the actual bug being basically identical to another unnoticeable one. Can't get Exquisite Focus Crystals from missions? Well, that's a bunch of engineering upgrades which are unobtainable. Can't get Refined Focus Crystals from missions? No-one notices. Can't get Flawed Focus Crystals from missions? That was a popular and intentional change when it was implemented!


We see this too in the C&P reforms and Frontier's efforts to get them right. They touch virtually every aspect of the game, there's a whole range of competing opinions on how much crime should be punished, every simple solution leaves loopholes big enough to fit a T-10 full of contraband through ... complex solution themselves risk surprising players. That's not a coding issue. You can sit down with a piece of paper and the assumption that every single piece of code will work perfectly every time and still not solve them.


None of this, of course, really gets solved by going to Elite 5 ... and even for those bits which would be, what happens to Elite 4 in the five years it takes to get Elite 5 up to rough feature-parity with Elite 4? Feature freeze, bugfixes only? Turn it off entirely? Keep developing it as well until Elite 5 finally catches up?


[1] No-one sensible would think trying to develop "multiplayer Elite" was a good idea. "singleplayer Elite" is a tough enough problem without adding "well, what if the player wasn't the protagonist" to it.

 

[Fishy]

ED is absolutely gorgeous, and once past the massive pre-launch disappointment at its direction, I enjoyed it for what it is. But yeah, I'd certainly pay for an actual moddable offline single-player Elite 4. It's a bit heartbreaking to see what modders do with Skyrim, DCS, ArmA, OOlite or even the old FFE and think that ED will never enjoy that kind of content despite having such an amazingly massive world begging to be fleshed out.

 

[[VR] Goooost]

I think that they're doing a good job of keeping room in their code for future developments. Holome, for instance, was seamless and brilliant other than the fact that it hit my pilots with the ugly stick. I think they know what they're doing looking forward to that end game.

However, as an artist I will say that starting something over from scratch always results in a superior product. I've gotten so used to trading my work for a clean slate that it's part of the process now.

One game series that I really liked growing up was escape velocity. The first two games had mission strings that lead nowhere or were impossible, tons of bugs... but the 3rd game really nailed it. The organization was so simple that anyone could create plugins for it. Really solid experience.

 

[Qohen Leth]

In fact the more I think about it, the more I believe multiplayer has held the game back for so much and for so long :/

If it wasn't for Distant Worlds 3302, I would never have stuck with the game for more than a week or so. I would think that limited, half-confident multiplayer is holding the game back. Funny how perspective work, right?

 

[M00ka]

Well this thread has been an interesting read, I never realised that it seems half the player group are long term professional programmers, I feel rather humbled to be in their presence (I am only an old Unix System Administrator and DB programmer .. sigh).

But back on topic, lets just look at the OP's proposal - start afresh! So that would mean that all current work in progress on ED immediately stops, all bugs stay, no future enhancements, additions, or content to be added. Why would this happen you may ask - well as we know, in the overall scheme of things, Frontier Development is a rather small company with three major titles to manage. I seriously think they would have the manpower to add a new major developmental project, especially one that would have to be entirely funded from within the company itself (no income from the new Elite game, it hasn't been released yet). Yes they could kickstart it, but how many would donate after what happened with original kickstart?

The major question is what type of game would it be, this new and improved Elite? Would it be what the OP kind of proposed - a cleaner and meaner version of Elite: Dangerous? Or would it be the pure scientific version that Armadeus1171 proposed in Post #10? Would they retain the three modes or listen to the PvP crowd and make the entire focus PvP with only one mode? Or would they go the other way and forget the whole MMO concept and just make it a single player? Lets not forget the FPS bandwagon, they will want the new game to be Cod in Space. Of course they could poll the current player base, who else by those that paid for the game and play it would know what the perfect game would be? It would be interesting to see if they did that, would they just take the majority vote or those that shouted the loudest and most often?

Personally, I am not too concerned. I enjoy the game (it is a game after all, not a way of life lol) yet still recognising there are aspect to the game I didn't want, will not get involved in, and have zero interest in even reading about. But since I know that other players have different wants and desires for the game, so I fully accept the simple fact that there will always be something about the game that well annoys me - I just don't do that bit. After all, the game does let me play the way I want, and get involved or totally ignore the various aspects of the game. The one thing I will say is I am impressed with FD in that they have acknowledged that there are major problems and have devoted this entire new update (Beyond) into trying to rectify these issues. Whether they succeed or not, only time will tell. But as others have said in this thread, a lot of other game developers won't even do that, they just drop a new map and some skins and assume everyone will forget about the problems.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

If it wasn't for Distant Worlds 3302, I would never has stuck with the game for more than a week or so. I would think that limited, half-confident multiplayer is holding the game back. Funny how perspective work, right?

absolutely..... Elite is a strange example of a game where usually totally disparate players seem to all play it, but ultimately many of us want the game to be something it isnt (myself included)

Some of that is down to unfair expectation from us.... but i think FD do have to carry some of the can for it, with their mixed messages in marketing compared to the KSer and DDF design blue prints compared to what they say and deliver now.

most games you can look at a few videos of and maybe play for 30 mins and know right away if it is a game you will be into, and if not you move on (I do this with most MP games esp if they are primarily PvP) but ED does not really seem to do that to people, we all just hang in there hoping for the next patch to make it what we dream of.

(personally despite its flaws ultimately i do like the core features of the game, but some here dont).

I actually wish the devs would sit down and do a frank and honest live stream going through their thoughts, looking at the ddf and explaining what is still a high priority, and what is no longer really important to them in the medium term of the game.... and then also take some in advance questions from the forum as well. (but disable the online chat at the time to avoid sidetracking) and really just giveing us some ideas on where they see the game goving over say the next 3 years or so

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

If it wasn't for Distant Worlds 3302, I would never has stuck with the game for more than a week or so. I would think that limited, half-confident multiplayer is holding the game back. Funny how perspective work, right?

Well yeah I agree with you there have been benefits to multiplayer. But do the pros outweigh the cons though?

My point was more that game development has been vastly slowed down because multiplayer has to be taken into account when adding new content. That's a minus, in my opinion.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Well this thread has been an interesting read, I never realised that it seems half the player group are long term professional programmers, I feel rather humbled to be in their presence (I am only an old Unix System Administrator and DB programmer .. sigh).

But back on topic, lets just look at the OP's proposal - start afresh! So that would mean that all current work in progress on ED immediately stops, all bugs stay, no future enhancements, additions, or content to be added. Why would this happen you may ask - well as we know, in the overall scheme of things, Frontier Development is a rather small company with three major titles to manage. I seriously think they would have the manpower to add a new major developmental project, especially one that would have to be entirely funded from within the company itself (no income from the new Elite game, it hasn't been released yet). Yes they could kickstart it, but how many would donate after what happened with original kickstart?

The major question is what type of game would it be, this new and improved Elite? Would it be what the OP kind of proposed - a cleaner and meaner version of Elite: Dangerous? Or would it be the pure scientific version that Armadeus1171 proposed in Post #10? Would they retain the three modes or listen to the PvP crowd and make the entire focus PvP with only one mode? Or would they go the other way and forget the whole MMO concept and just make it a single player? Lets not forget the FPS bandwagon, they will want the new game to be Cod in Space. Of course they could poll the current player base, who else by those that paid for the game and play it would know what the perfect game would be? It would be interesting to see if they did that, would they just take the majority vote or those that shouted the loudest and most often?

Personally, I am not too concerned. I enjoy the game (it is a game after all, not a way of life lol) yet still recognising there are aspect to the game I didn't want, will not get involved in, and have zero interest in even reading about. But since I know that other players have different wants and desires for the game, so I fully accept the simple fact that there will always be something about the game that well annoys me - I just don't do that bit. After all, the game does let me play the way I want, and get involved or totally ignore the various aspects of the game. The one thing I will say is I am impressed with FD in that they have acknowledged that there are major problems and have devoted this entire new update (Beyond) into trying to rectify these issues. Whether they succeed or not, only time will tell. But as others have said in this thread, a lot of other game developers won't even do that, they just drop a new map and some skins and assume everyone will forget about the problems.

just putting it in 1st i am not demanding or expecting it, we have ED and ED is the game FD are making, there wont be an ED2 any time soon.

bit IF there was... hpothetically... i would hope they would actually make the game in the DDF this time.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

absolutely..... Elite is a strange example of a game where usually totally disparate players seem to all play it, but ultimately many of us want the game to be something it isnt (myself included)

Some of that is down to unfair expectation from us.... but i think FD do have to carry some of the can for it, with their mixed messages in marketing compared to the KSer and DDF design blue prints compared to what they say and deliver now.

most games you can look at a few videos of and maybe play for 30 mins and know right away if it is a game you will be into, and if not you move on (I do this with most MP games esp if they are primarily PvP) but ED does not really seem to do that to people, we all just hang in there hoping for the next patch to make it what we dream of.

(personally despite its flaws ultimately i do like the core features of the game, but some here dont).

I actually wish the devs would sit down and do a frank and honest live stream going through their thoughts, looking at the ddf and explaining what is still a high priority, and what is no longer really important to them in the medium term of the game.... and then also take some in advance questions from the forum as well. (but disable the online chat at the time to avoid sidetracking) and really just giveing us some ideas on where they see the game goving over say the next 3 years or so

A great post and I agree with all of it. +rep.

I guess ED hasn't really turned out the way I was hoping it was going to, when I backed it, and no doubt there are lots more folks who are perfectly happy with the way ED is turning out. Oh well.

 

[ilo]

absolutely.....

Indeed, you and I use to be in the opposite poles most of the time, however with this I think you have nailed what I think too. Congrats, well written and +rep-ed.

 

[Qohen Leth]

Well yeah I agree with you there have been benefits to multiplayer. But do the pros outweigh the cons though?

My point was more that game development has been vastly slowed down because multiplayer has to be taken into account when adding new content. That's a minus, in my opinion.

Do you mean that useless multiplayer aspects have to be taken into account?

Why does PowerPlay exist, and people still can't pledge allegiance to their own actual faction? Why does MC exists, when half the time it causes CTD and the other half it disconnects every 10 minutes? We just want to be able to do fleet stuff!

*sob*

 

[Watcher]

There are undoubtedly some problems at the moment but there has also been plenty of good stuff with 3.0 and the game is still fun and broadly playable.
So perhaps give them time to sort out the issues? They've said they are working on further changes and as a community we've been demanding even more - this will inevitably break stuff but in the long term it should leave the game in a better place.
Maybe I'm just being too optimistic?..

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Do you mean that useless multiplayer aspects have to be taken into account?

Why does PowerPlay exist, and people still can't pledge allegiance to their own actual faction? Why does MC exists, when half the time it causes CTD and the other half it disconnects every 10 minutes? We just want to be able to do fleet stuff!

*sob*

"Why does PowerPlay exist?" has been a question going through my mind ever since it was vomited onto the game from the start

It was one of those Things added, completely out of the blue - no one but Frontier were expecting Powerplay. It wasn't even in the DDF I don't think. It sort of has a whiff of "someone in Frontier likes cringey RPG board games and this was their pet project" about it.

As for fleet stuff - I don't care much about it. I'm not anti-social, I'm a-social - i.e. I have an indifference to social occasions. Probably why I cringe at RPG board games as well.

If or when Frontier decide to add Eve-type guild/clan play to E: D - and I suspect this is inevitable, sadly - well that'll probably be the point at which I hit the uninstall menu in the launcher, and then uninstall the game.

Unless of course by 'fleet stuff' you meant co-op play like the exploration expeditions. I haven't participated in any of those either. Partly for asocial reasons and partly for time reasons - marriage and parenthood is a time vampire

 

[[VR] Zakk]

Elite is a strange example of a game where usually totally disparate players seem to all play it, but ultimately many of us want the game to be something it isnt (myself included)

Some of that is down to unfair expectation from us.... but i think FD do have to carry some of the can for it, with their mixed messages in marketing compared to the KSer and DDF design blue prints compared to what they say and deliver now.

I agree. I also think that Elite could be a lot more, without investing an insane amount of development effort. There's a lot of potential sitting idle.

But I do have almost 600 hours on record, so with all the criticism, I absolutely have to acknowledge that FDev created one helluva game. I lost interest a couple of times, but always came back after a while. That is something that only Civ5 did for me so far.

I don't dislike the idea of launching a fresh ED2. It would be a chance to re-adress balancing, replace some of the hardcore-grind mechanisms and introduce new features (e.g. building own planetary bases or even space stations) without rich players being able to buy new stuff straight away, or without making the new stuff subject to yet another grind cycle that would make it almost impossible for new players to ever get there.

I don't think FDev will go that way, and I'm also cool with another full-price add-on. After all the hours spent with the game, I'll gladly say "shut up and take my money", no matter which way they will go.

Either way, I don't think I will be a lot happier with the game in 2 years. But I will still be playing it, probably having racked up well over 1000 hours by then.

 

[M00ka]

"Why does PowerPlay exist?" has been a question going through my mind ever since it was vomited onto the game from the start

It was one of those Things added, completely out of the blue - no one but Frontier were expecting Powerplay. It wasn't even in the DDF I don't think. It sort of has a whiff of "someone in Frontier likes cringey RPG board games and this was their pet project" about it.

As for fleet stuff - I don't care much about it. I'm not anti-social, I'm a-social - i.e. I have an indifference to social occasions. Probably why I cringe at RPG board games as well.

If or when Frontier decide to add Eve-type guild/clan play to E: D - and I suspect this is inevitable, sadly - well that'll probably be the point at which I hit the uninstall menu in the launcher, and then uninstall the game.

Unless of course by 'fleet stuff' you meant co-op play like the exploration expeditions. I haven't participated in any of those either. Partly for asocial reasons and partly for time reasons - marriage and parenthood is a time vampire

I have always been under the impression that PowerPlay was something the Community requested, i.e. something for the PvP crowd, a storyline for those that wanted one, that type of thing. If it turns out I was wrong and PP was solely conceived by FDev, well we are in trouble!

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I have always been under the impression that PowerPlay was something the Community requested, i.e. something for the PvP crowd, a storyline for those that wanted one, that type of thing. If it turns out I was wrong and PP was solely conceived by FDev, well we are in trouble!

I distinctly remember Powerplay being unveiled with a "TADA!" and a sprinkling of "I'm very excited about this!", and it was added completely out of the blue - no one outside of Frontier was expecting it.

 

[Flimsey]

If Frontier can't get it right the first time how do you expect they will get it right the second time?

This is Elite 4, not the first game they did.
Played the three before and they are all great games.

 

[sb413197]

Thanks to those that participated and gave their thoughts in this thread. I've learned a lot from reading the responses here from people far more knowledgeable about this than myself (I am just coming at it from the viewpoint of a fan); and I am encouraged that so many people "in the know" seem to think things are fixable and that the game can keep progressing without starting anew. I was going to keep playing either way of course and am not even considering "giving up" (why would I? I enjoy the game, after all!); but it's certainly very good to hear that so many people think the game can keep moving forward!

I expect to see atmospheric landings and space legs next month, that should be easy to implement right? :---)

 

[Boff'in]

Season3 has kicked off, and for me, this is the "righting the perceived wrongs", fixing the game, and giving the careers a lot of love.

And for me, the perceived wrongs has crept in.

First off, intentional design for an intended audience,
Elite was supposed to be hard-core, 80's simulator, black box experience, with no hand-holding. No guilds, just you and your wits/skill/inteligence and a notepad&pen, playing Elite in an online representation of our galaxy.


and then winding up get that audience that thought it was star-citizen boom boom bang bang from day1
And people complaining from day 1, the game is either broken or incomplete because it didn't have Feature-XX. that lived up to the end-of-development adverts and talk from the dev diaries, which were it was also time and time again stressed that EXPANSIONS would be covering further down the line.

Power creep between weapons/defenses
which turned into a power landslide with Engineers.

Powerplay was an attempt at enabling legitimate grouping players in a pvp arena, as was CQC.
After that the main bugs are the background sim, and mission generation.

after-that the game is fine. it just needs a few nuts and bolts tightening, which is the whole purpose of season3.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

ED is beyond salvage since 2.1. The power creep did it in for good. Better design a new game from scratch and take some design boss who has a different philosophy about pride and accomplishment and what makes fun gameplay.

And get rid of the forced MP shared world thing. It doesn''t work and the big universe can only mitigate the toxic stuff so much. Elite works better as a single player game.