Thank You Very Much, Frontier, for your effort in C&P

[Aashenfox]

take some time and learn some trigger discipline and be wary of NPC's darting in front of you at any minute. .

VJ, I respect you, I like your channel, but this triggers me in a very serious way, so here come da rant.

YOu know what the problem is? It;s exactly this, it's HOW you get notorious. It's so immersion breakingly idiotic.

I'm in a Corvette. I'm in a HAZRES or comp nav for 45 minutes with multicannons. Sometimes, this goes off with out a hitch, like last night. NO FF incidents, because I'm careful. I always am. I'm a very good shot too, I too have a YT channel to prove it. SOMETIMES though, there will be an FF incident (and these have been MORE frequent since 3.0, don't ask me why, cos I know they supposedly made it harder, I don't know what to say, something must have gone wrong there, or I'm just using way too powerful weapons, I digress...) when that happens, I have a choice. I can either break off my attack on legitimate targets (AND recall my fighter, because he's almost good enough to take out an NPC on his own now, and is normally set to defend me), AND disengage with a target I may be close to finishing off. AND FINALLY, I have to leave the instance and start the whole thing again. This is NOT FUN. I didn't do it on purpose and there is no way to apologise and no recourse for me.

OR, as is more often the case, I'm thinking "hang on a minute, what on earth does this eagle think it's doing? I only hit him once, his shields aren't even down, I'm in a fully engineered corvette, and he thinks his best course of action is to try and kill me?" Rather than either assuming I'm trying to kill him and leaving the instance (for his own self preservation), or realising it was a mistake, because I'm OBVIOUSLY in battle with another ship (as would be logical in any universe), he exercises his legal right to respond in kind (must be a total ), and subsequently, causes ME to have to defend MYSELF from HIS attempt to murder me. I had NO INTENTION of killing him. He is NOT exercising self defense, he is exercising his right to murder me in response to me hitting him with a few stray shots (which moron gave them this right?) As I've repeatedly said in another thread, IF YOU"RE RED YOU'RE DEAD. That is how the game is meant to be played. Targets are red, friendlies are green, neutrals are orange.

This is then COMPOUNDED by the fact that because I chose not to leave the instance and instead defend myself from some fool's revenge attempt, other clean ships will scan me, find me wanted and attack me, also subsequently committing suicide. NOtoriety grows and grows as long as I don't feel like being inconvenienced by one tiny mistake I made.

Bottom line 1. If you're going to have harsh punishment, there needs to be a way to avoid it for genuine accidents (such as apology mechanism). Or even better, make the AI not make totally decisions that amount to suicide. (MoM, I want you to know, this has nothing to do with the combat ai, which as you know, i think is excellent under the circumstances)

Now tack on the problem that this is supposed to be 'by ship'. Only it's not. If I get 5 notoriety in my vette, then say ok that's fine, I'll use my courier for a whie til it wears off, and I decide to go do a scan of a private beacon for a scan mission, despite the fact that this does not add to notoriety, as soon as I have a bounty, just the 200 credits for the scan, my courier is now subject to the consequences of CnP for the duration of my notoriety.

Now let's talk about that duration. I had 9 notoriety from this exact scenario described above (this was actually the day before 3.0.3 as well), it started off with a single friendly fire incident which I didn't want to be inconvenienced by and then lead to bounty hunters coming in droves. I had 9 notoriety by the time I got bored of killing legitimate pirate targets and suicidal authorites. That meant that for 18 hours of GAME PLAY, I was seriousl inconveinced in my home system. That's just outrageous. Most games are over in 15 hours.

I could go on and on, I could mention why on earth mother gaia would refuse me services for killing an independent target that attacked me...and on and on about not just how illogical the whole thing is and how I was always careful, now I have to be
'super careful', and this has made melee areas much less fun for me. It;s shocking that fun was discarded in favour of major inconvenience.

Bottom line 2. Notoriety ticks way too slow to not decay offline.

P. S you can tell how triggered I am cos I can't be bothered to fix the typos.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I think the new C&P has curbed griefing.

I flew around 4 separate engineer bases in Open on multiple sessions. Loads of hollow squares, not one of them hostile.

Admittedly, it wasn't at peak time, but it's not uncommon to find someone being a bell end somewhere.

I've had a few run ins with the law myself, and not experienced any issues as of yet. All working as intended so far.

So well done FD.

The only downside is it's going to make me (and maybe others) a bit complacent about the dangers of open, and sooner or later I'm going to get attacked and end up looking like a deer in headlights.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[M00ka]

I just know I am going to get crucified for this, but .....

If, as some say, the only players disadvantaged under the new C&P are the PvE, then something needs to be done. I would like to think that the entire aim of the new system is to combat griefers and gankers, to finally instil some actualy punishment into the game. If the new system isn't doing this then it needs a buff. What I would like to see is if a player exceeds a certain notoriety level (or maybe a bounty level) then the 'authorities' place a caveat on not only his ship, but what is contained inside his ship. So the next time the ship is destroyed, any and all engineered modules are confiscated by the authorities, they are automatically replaced with the E rated items. Same as when the ship is impounded at a detention centre. Once they pay their bounty they get their ship back, minus anything Engineered. Call this a step up from the hot modules, they would be the missing modules!

The reasoning behind my idea is simple. Most of these types of players have sufficient funds to pay any bounties, they just don't care about credits. But they do care about all those modules they have carefully Engineered, the result of all that searching for mats etc. So really the only punishment that would hurt them is TIME, make them have to start the entire Engineering process again. At least that would hopefully keep them busy for a while and not playing murder-hobo.

 

[varonica]

You wouldn't thank someone for taking a crap in your lawn, so why are you thanking FD? That's basically what C&P is.
In fact, the griefers and PVPers like 3.0, because nothing changes for them. It's everyone else that's affected.

Strange, hasn't affected me at all, and probably never will, but then I guess that's just the way I play the game.

 

[Maro-Val]

I cant believe I am saying this, but seriously, take some time and learn some trigger discipline and be wary of NPC's darting in front of you at any minute. Yes I agree that the sensitivity was a bit high initially, but after adjusting myself to be super careful, I haven't had any more problems.

Most of the times i agree with you, but on this case.. what are you talking about? To learn some trigger discipline? Am i supposed now to be careful when i hit the trigger like an old lady, just because the devs released this patch completely unbalanced like they always do? NO, i am not an idiot to adjust myself to this stupidity. THEY have to fix it.
In the same manner i avoided planetary stations when the raining skimmers were happening. I could do that forever and say the same thing like you. I AM NOT the one, or the rest of the playerbase, that has to do actions in order to fix their mess.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Most of the times i agree with you, but on this case.. what are you talking about? To learn some trigger discipline? Am i supposed now to be careful when i hit the trigger like an old lady, just because the devs released this patch completely unbalanced like they always do? NO, i am not an idiot to adjust myself to this stupidity. THEY have to fix it.
In the same manner i avoided planetary stations when the raining skimmers were happening. I could do that forever and say the same thing like you. I AM NOT the one, or the rest of the playerbase, that has to do actions in order to fix their mess.

When using live ammunition in an open environment, yes. Very.

I've shot a few ships I didn't mean to, since 3.0, all of them just landed a fine.

Even my excessive use of Packhounds in close quarters with security buzzing around didn't get me in trouble.
And in 2.4 that used to happen constantly.

Also, you didn't have to avoid the entire planet to avoid "skimmer rain". Just drop down and waits few seconds.

It was actually quite therapeutic to watch them slowly float down. Lol

 

[Marra Morgan]

Most of the times i agree with you, but on this case.. what are you talking about? To learn some trigger discipline? Am i supposed now to be careful when i hit the trigger like an old lady, just because the devs released this patch completely unbalanced like they always do? NO, i am not an idiot to adjust myself to this stupidity. THEY have to fix it.
In the same manner i avoided planetary stations when the raining skimmers were happening. I could do that forever and say the same thing like you. I AM NOT the one, or the rest of the playerbase, that has to do actions in order to fix their mess.

Adapt or whine on the forums.

 

[Stigbob]

You wouldn't thank someone for taking a crap in your lawn, so why are you thanking FD? That's basically what C&P is.
In fact, the griefers and PVPers like 3.0, because nothing changes for them. It's everyone else that's affected.

I think you'll find the difference between a video game balancing pass and someone doing a rogue poo on your lawn is quite considerable.

No... You actually don't.

Actually I think he does, he's not the only forum user sick of the high pitched whining.

I have no doubt that they are doing C&P the wrong way, very wrong.

That's all well and good, but you can't distinguish between lawn poo and video game mechanics so your opinion is automatically suspect.

I highly doubt that.

You could check his posting history, for lawn poo since that's your thing.

FD, when will you nerf the forum whitenights?

Probably before they get around to pooing in places they shouldn't.

 

[Maro-Val]

When using live ammunition in an open environment, yes. Very.

I've shot a few ships I didn't mean to, since 3.0, all of them just landed a fine.

Even my excessive use of Packhounds in close quarters with security buzzing around didn't get me in trouble.
And in 2.4 that used to happen constantly.

Also, you didn't have to avoid the entire planet to avoid "skimmer rain". Just drop down and waits few seconds.

It was actually quite therapeutic to watch them slowly float down. Lol

Live ammunition in an open environment you say? Seriously? You are telling me to be carefull with my guns, when the other guy likes to cruise among other people that use live ammunition for their entairtainment or profit? Seriously?

Oh i m sorry about the skimmers. I didnt know that i could wait for a few seconds for the rain to stop. Sorry that me and others didnt adjust ourselves to that specific bug and as a result devs HAD TO fix it because of us and waste their precious time. Next time i ll try a bit more.

EDIT: "using live ammunition in an open environment" lol. You do understand that this is a game right? right?

 

[sollisb]

Oh and please, for the love of god, don't put griefing and pvp in the same basket... You're doing no good at all by associating these two.

I actually agree with this; But... As long as PvP is forced on players, PvP will have a bad name, by nature of the beast. The bottom holes ruin the real name of PvP.

 

[drakhyr]

It is clear from the many threads on this forum that players are finding that committing crimes (particularly murders) has real consequences. In my view, that simple fact is very much a good thing.

The station lock out and notoriety are, in my view, the only things that really make the consequences painful, given that is is generally fairly easy to make enough credits to cover the credit value of any bounties. There may be tweaks needed (e.g. making NPC murders count only a fraction as much towards notoriety, say), but the concept of having consequences for criminality that players actually feel as negative consequences is one that I agree with.

I also think that in some of the areas where there are complaints, what is actually needed is probably changes to other parts of the game, rather than C&P itself. This is certainly the case for missions (which too often can send you on missions which will get you wanted in the issuing system), and possibly for NPC response to reckless fire issues.

 

[Stigbob]

VJ, I respect you, I like your channel, but this triggers me in a very serious way, so here come da rant.

YOu know what the problem is? It;s exactly this, it's HOW you get notorious. It's so immersion breakingly idiotic.

I'm in a Corvette. I'm in a HAZRES or comp nav for 45 minutes with multicannons. Sometimes, this goes off with out a hitch, like last night. NO FF incidents, because I'm careful. I always am. I'm a very good shot too, I too have a YT channel to prove it. SOMETIMES though, there will be an FF incident (and these have been MORE frequent since 3.0, don't ask me why, cos I know they supposedly made it harder, I don't know what to say, something must have gone wrong there, or I'm just using way too powerful weapons, I digress...) when that happens, I have a choice. I can either break off my attack on legitimate targets (AND recall my fighter, because he's almost good enough to take out an NPC on his own now, and is normally set to defend me), AND disengage with a target I may be close to finishing off. AND FINALLY, I have to leave the instance and start the whole thing again. This is NOT FUN. I didn't do it on purpose and there is no way to apologise and no recourse for me.

OR, as is more often the case, I'm thinking "hang on a minute, what on earth does this eagle think it's doing? I only hit him once, his shields aren't even down, I'm in a fully engineered corvette, and he thinks his best course of action is to try and kill me?" Rather than either assuming I'm trying to kill him and leaving the instance (for his own self preservation), or realising it was a mistake, because I'm OBVIOUSLY in battle with another ship (as would be logical in any universe), he exercises his legal right to respond in kind (must be a total ), and subsequently, causes ME to have to defend MYSELF from HIS attempt to murder me. I had NO INTENTION of killing him. He is NOT exercising self defense, he is exercising his right to murder me in response to me hitting him with a few stray shots (which moron gave them this right?) As I've repeatedly said in another thread, IF YOU"RE RED YOU'RE DEAD. That is how the game is meant to be played. Targets are red, friendlies are green, neutrals are orange.

This is then COMPOUNDED by the fact that because I chose not to leave the instance and instead defend myself from some fool's revenge attempt, other clean ships will scan me, find me wanted and attack me, also subsequently committing suicide. NOtoriety grows and grows as long as I don't feel like being inconvenienced by one tiny mistake I made.

Bottom line 1. If you're going to have harsh punishment, there needs to be a way to avoid it for genuine accidents (such as apology mechanism). Or even better, make the AI not make totally decisions that amount to suicide. (MoM, I want you to know, this has nothing to do with the combat ai, which as you know, i think is excellent under the circumstances)

Now tack on the problem that this is supposed to be 'by ship'. Only it's not. If I get 5 notoriety in my vette, then say ok that's fine, I'll use my courier for a whie til it wears off, and I decide to go do a scan of a private beacon for a scan mission, despite the fact that this does not add to notoriety, as soon as I have a bounty, just the 200 credits for the scan, my courier is now subject to the consequences of CnP for the duration of my notoriety.

Now let's talk about that duration. I had 9 notoriety from this exact scenario described above (this was actually the day before 3.0.3 as well), it started off with a single friendly fire incident which I didn't want to be inconvenienced by and then lead to bounty hunters coming in droves. I had 9 notoriety by the time I got bored of killing legitimate pirate targets and suicidal authorites. That meant that for 18 hours of GAME PLAY, I was seriousl inconveinced in my home system. That's just outrageous. Most games are over in 15 hours.

I could go on and on, I could mention why on earth mother gaia would refuse me services for killing an independent target that attacked me...and on and on about not just how illogical the whole thing is and how I was always careful, now I have to be
'super careful', and this has made melee areas much less fun for me. It;s shocking that fun was discarded in favour of major inconvenience.

Bottom line 2. Notoriety ticks way too slow to not decay offline.

P. S you can tell how triggered I am cos I can't be bothered to fix the typos.

I'm also careful of friendly fire, and being careful means it happens very rarely. Even more so now we are about three balancing passes down the line making it so much easier. When it does happen (inevitably even if you are careful and good at hitting what you aim at) I enjoy escaping under fire from every ship in the instance, it's the only time there's anything approaching a serious threat.

It's a matter of perspective, put the fun before the cash grind.

 

[sollisb]

regarding C&P;

It is certainly a step in the right direction; How-ever it needs to made more adaptable to punishing the real problems while catering to the 'stray shot' type incidents..

An Example; Last night I got a fine for stray fire. Not a problem, except I couldn't pay it off. It was for some faction called 'EG Union'. So.. How do I pay that off?

Step 1; Find out which faction the fine is for. No biggie; it's there on your bounty list.
Step 2; Fly to faction station and pay fine. Ok. eh, wait.. How do I know the station name? Huh? Huh? Oh! I have to go online to an external tool, and find out that way. There are no tools in the game to do it. Who thought that was a good design I wonder?

Example 2; Same incident above, I had a crew member. The crew member's ship, parked back at some station, has a fine on it, that it was not involved in?

Example 3; NPCs fire on players with impunity, yet when the role is reversed, the player gets fined? More wonderful design!

C&P is a getting there.. A bit like the rest of the game.. Eventually, when we're all old and grey, they may, just may, have got it right!

 

[Aashenfox]

I'm also careful of friendly fire, and being careful means it happens very rarely. Even more so now we are about three balancing passes down the line making it so much easier. When it does happen (inevitably even if you are careful and good at hitting what you aim at) I enjoy escaping under fire from every ship in the instance, it's the only time there's anything approaching a serious threat.

It's a matter of perspective, put the fun before the cash grind.

I wasn't grinding. I was testing out my shiny newly engineered corvette, that's why, for once, I didn't feel like being ousted from the instance. It;s not a bad system, just the duration and inconvenience of the punishment is a bit too much.

 

[Cmdr Lucca1985]

Most complaints are some flavour of:
- Indignant shock that there's actual penalties for crime
- Complaint that "I just casually murdered another ship, why am I being penalised so harshly!"; or
- Outright lack of understanding the new C&P system.

I'm wanted in 3 jurisdictions right now... notoriety 0 but I feel no compunction to pay off the bounties, since I selected my targets carefully and have reaped 10's of millions in rewards without any impact on my "day-to-day" gameplay.

I kinda look forward to the return of superpower-jurisdiction bounties (were they removed or something? 50k bounty and i'm still just wanted by a single minor faction)



Funnier part is, you don't get notoriety from accidentaly shots. You get it for murder. Accidentally hit someone? Don't hang around for it to escalate into murder. Funny part is these shots probably count for murder, because people complained about "Killstealing NPCs" when people wouldn't get bounty rewards after not inflicting enough damage. "Make my shots count, unless I'm killing an innocent plz!"

Cue "But I accidentally hit an eagle with a C4 Plasma Accellerator! I had no chance!" XD

Id say most of the complaints are about the direct interferance IRL of a 2 hour game lockout with no workaround but wait, if anarchy systems weren't locked out for 'notoriety' there would be no valid complaint. Players want the game to be great, they want to play. Trying to understand why a developer would make such a decison/blunder is whats frustrating people.

 

[Stigbob]

I wasn't grinding. I was testing out my shiny newly engineered corvette, that's why, for once, I didn't feel like being ousted from the instance. It;s not a bad system, just the duration and inconvenience of the punishment is a bit too much.

The punishment and inconvenience is the whole point of it I think, and it definitely seems to be working.

I always do test's in anarchies as a rule, no comeback and lovely scoopable mats for randomly murdering anything with a lawless tag.

 

[Mr_sukebe]

+1.
IMO, a massive improvement.
The number of players on here complaining about it, then confirming that they've committed a crime is testament of it's effectiveness.

My guess is that we'll see a significant reduction in those whine threads as players actual start adapting to these highly sensible improvements.

 

[Aashenfox]

The punishment and inconvenience is the whole point of it I think, and it definitely seems to be working.

I always do test's in anarchies as a rule, no comeback and lovely scoopable mats for randomly murdering anything with a lawless tag.

I would say FD agree with me, since I've just been told in another thread (unverified) that it is being changed, only locked out of outfitting in bounty jurisdiction. Excellent change. I will let up a little on my criticism now if this is indeed the case.

I have routines, places I use after all these years, I don't want to be forced for arbitrary reasons to go rank up with a bunch of anarchy or independent factions I don't care about to be able to do the same things I've always been doing. I;t snot about avoiding consequences, it's about their reach and duration.

 

[Stigbob]

I would say FD agree with me, since I've just been told in another thread (unverified) that it is being changed, only locked out of outfitting in bounty jurisdiction. Excellent change. I will let up a little on my criticism now if this is indeed the case.

No biggie either way for me.

I have routines, places I use after all these years, I don't want to be forced for arbitrary reasons to go rank up with a bunch of anarchy or independent factions I don't care about to be able to do the same things I've always been doing. I;t snot about avoiding consequences, it's about their reach and duration.

I like change and hobo around the place, the only place I'm genuinely careful is when I'm around the systems of the player faction I support.

 

[Aashenfox]

No biggie either way for me.



I like change and hobo around the place, the only place I'm genuinely careful is when I'm around the systems of the player faction I support.

Oh I go wandering too. When I want to. Not when the game forces me. I'm careful everywhere, never shot a ship in anger that didn't shoot in anger at me first. Truth.