Grind - can we solve the problem?

[Bortas]

We players can't solve the grind, we are not the developers.

Developer: "We developers can't solve the grind, we are not the players."

ED has plenty of stuff to do... it's purely the player's choice wether he wants to grind or play. Like in any other MMO... no matter which one... there's always the same choice... do I grind my way up to the high-end gear / maximum level, or do I just play the game and get there as a side-effect?

Only players can solve it, by not doing it. If that means not playing the game for them, then fine... don't see much sense in doing stuff in a game that I hate.

 

[Han_Zen]

I think part of the problem in ED is that upgrades are way to good.

The perceived advantage of using a highly specialized fully engineered ship, creates a sense of urgency. 'I just need to get this, before I can do that.'

Focusing on what we want to have and not what we want to do, creates the grind. It's not easy to avoid falling into this trap.

 

[zombieapocalypse]

People can't help themselves. Even if there were a plethora of different ways to get something, loads of variation, great and deep gameplay, people will still grind out the easiest and fastest method to get something and then complain about the grind after they have done so.

There is nothing that can be done for these people.

It's the classic min-max, must-have-everything-now-or-I-won't-be-able-to-enjoy-the-game mentality. That said, I do think some areas of the game are a little too grindy and require better balancing. But I suspect some players will never be satisfied unless they can earn/achieve everything within a very short play time. And then after they have it all, they'll quickly get bored and complain there is nothing to do.

 

[Frenotx]

Sad thing is to many that would be an increase in grind, what they want is the mat drop or whatever.
The usual suspects would see all that extra game play as wasting their time in getting x, y and z to engineer/unlock/whatever their uberpvp-ship (for exapmple).
Basically I don't think it is possible for FDEV to win.

Part of that also comes from the monumental amount of power added with good engineering. If the effects were more minor and more about tweaking / side-grading, people wouldn't feel as pressured to get G5 everything ASAP.

 

[zombieapocalypse]

Part of that also comes from the monumental amount of power added with good engineering. If the effects were more minor and more about tweaking / side-grading, people wouldn't feel as pressured to get G5 everything ASAP.

That's an excellent point and something I've been saying for a long time.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I don' think this problem can be solved, to be honest.

I've seen games with engaging stories, beautiful worlds and balanced game mechanics, yet people would still grind to get that next best thing, rather than let the game flow and enjoy the ride.
There are people who grind, and there are people who don't. It's as simple as that. It's a choice you make, not the game.

This.

 

[kofeyh]

Part of that also comes from the monumental amount of power added with good engineering. If the effects were more minor and more about tweaking / side-grading, people wouldn't feel as pressured to get G5 everything ASAP.

Frontier knowingly, willingly and proudly created a mechanic that created an irresistible demand (extreme engineering blueprints) that leveraged aspects of gambling to trigger task repetition. Other developers would recognise the very unhealthy nature of those mechanics (if you give a person a lever, they will keep pulling it, even to their detriment) and seek to immediately remove them.

Not Frontier. They endlessly protested having to make changes and worked feverishly to keep the gambling intact, up until very recently. Perhaps the PEGI rating was at risk. We will never know the actual motivation for a pretty sudden about face. I want to give Frontier the benefit of the doubt, but lately it's been increasingly hard to see how one can reasonably do that.

Much of the game, is the developer realising if you give people endless levers to pull, they will. This will keep players occupied. So do timers. Timers? Players love 'em. More the better. So you can make people pull a lever 100 times, and they will. Or 1000. And you can make them wait between pulling the levers. And they will happily (well, mostly) comply. Procedural generation and RNG is omni-present as a consequence and there's a very clear design philosophy.

I think there's a propensity to believe the developer is a bit dim. I don't think this is the case at all. Dim people, don't invent this level of grind, with complicated, purposeful, layered repetition, with borderline addictive triggers.

There are a lot of things one can do, repeatedly, and not really notice (if you've spent hundreds of hours or more in the game, doing those very repeated tasks, they tend to blend). People only really notice exceptions, the things they don't like doing. Not noticing that the entire game is essentially repetition. Because it is. It's just how much of each, you can stand before noticing. This will be different things, for different people.

This isn't really special. A lot of games like this, with potential for heavy hour consumption, feature endless repetition. It's a real skill to make that work, and to Frontier's credit, they've done really well to give the game some solid life. You can play this thing for years. Not many other games can claim that. Some triple A titles can have sub 100 hour completion times.

Of course, if mechanics became moderate, then they cease being as irresistible (the distortion is part of what drives compliance) and thus less effective in triggering repetition. This isn't a coincidence. Like I said; Frontier isn't dim. Not even a little bit.

 

[Vardaugas]

The issue I see with the current implementation of the RNG in Elite is that we have to wait for the game to roll the dice for us. Let me get my hands on those dice and have me roll them by the use of some game mechanic. At least then it would feel like I'm doing something to progress instead of waiting and watching the game play with itself.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Yes there is grind in this game. In large amounts for some things. Can it be fixed ? Sure can.

1) make credit acquisition a bit faster once high ranks are reached.
2) make those high reward activities high risk. High difficulty means longer time to reach mastery means less grind.
3) avoid stupid crap like tying a material to a single activity. Multiple ways for any objective, that's how you do it.
4) revamp SS mechanics to something more persistent tied to interesting asset and/or missions.
5) move from simple fetch X / kill X quests with no context to more complex missions. Hire people with the know how for open world adventure games if you don't have it.
6) KOS any wait to play bullcrap. That include RNG wait for SS, RNG wait for mission objective, and immersion timers in general. Ever wonder why the witcher/Skyrim and all those very good open world adventure games feature fast travel between a limited number of points/gateways? If your players are waiting in game to play the game, you failed because you built a glorified screensaver. Protip: screensavers are boring.

Whenever one is corralled by the game into repeating a task past the point of mastery to progress meaningfully, grind is born.

 

[Muetdhiver]

ED is a top notch space flight arcade game and a pretty bad open world adventure game.

Looks to me that FD is trying to move from pretty bad to pretty good in the adventure part. Will they make it ? Not if they keep clutching their grind crutch.

 

[M00ka]

Grind isn't unique to Elite, or even unique to this style of game, any game can be a grind if you play it enough.

Here is an example: BF2, back when it was the hottest shooter going around, 64player, massive maps, the ability to fly a jet, drive a tank, you name it, it was available. But that ended up being one heck of a grind. As you got to know the maps, redefine your playing style, pick your favourite weapon loadout, routine kicks in. I remember one guy, high ranked (Col or Gen from memory) who only played one map, and if that map didn't come up, he would server hop until he found it. Always played on a specific side, always the same kit (medic of course). One day I decided to follow him and what he was doing was outstanding (or stupid, take your pick). At the beginning of the round he would spawn and take off like a startled gazelle for a particular location. Once there he would stay put until he got 5 kills. If he got killed before that number, he would spawn at the start and head straight back to his little camping spot. Once he got his 5 kills, he would move immediately to his second spot and repeat the process. All up he had about 10 locations on the map that he would visit in sequential sequence. Didn't really matter what the rest of the team was doing and woe anyone who was in his spot lol And there were the players who only ever did one thing. Knew several who would leave the server if someone got into THEIR vehicle at the beginning of the round, yep if they couldn't get the jet or that APC at the start they wouldn't even play.

There were experiencing the grind of the game, they were doing the same action over and over again, every round. And some of them couldn't work out why they weren't enjoying the game anymore but you couldn't convince them to change their playing styles. They were basically in a rut and couldn't get out.

I guess what I am trying to say is if a large scale multiplayer FPS (with no NPCs at all) can be considered a grind, then of course a game like Elite is going to have grind. But from my experience a lot of players fall into the trap of creating grind for themselves due to their playing style or some inane compulsion to have something either in the belief that if they don't they will 'lose' or if they do have it, they will be unbeatable. ​

 

[Majic-12]

The problem isn't grinding, it's the lack of alternatives to grinding.

 

[zombieapocalypse]

Grind isn't unique to Elite, or even unique to this style of game, any game can be a grind if you play it enough.

Here is an example: BF2, back when it was the hottest shooter going around, 64player, massive maps, the ability to fly a jet, drive a tank, you name it, it was available. But that ended up being one heck of a grind. As you got to know the maps, redefine your playing style, pick your favourite weapon loadout, routine kicks in. I remember one guy, high ranked (Col or Gen from memory) who only played one map, and if that map didn't come up, he would server hop until he found it. Always played on a specific side, always the same kit (medic of course). One day I decided to follow him and what he was doing was outstanding (or stupid, take your pick). At the beginning of the round he would spawn and take off like a startled gazelle for a particular location. Once there he would stay put until he got 5 kills. If he got killed before that number, he would spawn at the start and head straight back to his little camping spot. Once he got his 5 kills, he would move immediately to his second spot and repeat the process. All up he had about 10 locations on the map that he would visit in sequential sequence. Didn't really matter what the rest of the team was doing and woe anyone who was in his spot lol And there were the players who only ever did one thing. Knew several who would leave the server if someone got into THEIR vehicle at the beginning of the round, yep if they couldn't get the jet or that APC at the start they wouldn't even play.

There were experiencing the grind of the game, they were doing the same action over and over again, every round. And some of them couldn't work out why they weren't enjoying the game anymore but you couldn't convince them to change their playing styles. They were basically in a rut and couldn't get out.

I guess what I am trying to say is if a large scale multiplayer FPS (with no NPCs at all) can be considered a grind, then of course a game like Elite is going to have grind. But from my experience a lot of players fall into the trap of creating grind for themselves due to their playing style or some inane compulsion to have something either in the belief that if they don't they will 'lose' or if they do have it, they will be unbeatable. ​

I used to help run a Battlefield clan and several servers for many years, so I know this mentality all too well. In the more recent games, EA/DICE added in intentional grind in the form of weapon, perk, and rank progression as well for acquiring new weapons skins and dog tags. And you see people obsessing over needing to complete these rather dull, repetitive, and generally unnecessary assignments, but then complaining that they're boring and grindy

 

[BuzzBee]

So - ideas to make the game more engaging to the broader player base? Let's keep it constructive if we can please.

Cheers.

Is there a requirement to make the game more engaging to broader player base? The gaming market is saturated with (fairly samey, solve a puzzle, follow a narrow narrative) games that appeal to the broader gaming community. Very few offer the level of choice and freedom that titles like Elite do, so I would be one of those voices that begged for Elite not to stray too far from its current design. If key game mechanics were introduced to engage the broader base, I would hope that Fdev place them alongside existing mechanics, allowing those who want to continue with their current game style, to do so.

The priority has to be to fix the mission mechanics that aren't currently working quite as intended and balance those mission rewards that are out of kilter.

What else? I suspect the majority would say that credits aren't too difficult to come by in game so, for example:

Make it possible for a player to buy a high end 'currently rank locked' ship, without the associated rank, but at a significantly higher purchase price, with associated higher rebuy cost.

Make it possible to purchase engineered modules, but at significantly higher purchase prices over the vanilla modules.

Create some very high risk missions that reward in a rank locked ship, or rank locked permits, or engineered modules.

Launch one CG event each month that pays out 'exploit level' credits. Launch one CG event each month that pays out grade 5 mats. Or better still, like current mission reward options, give options for CG payouts as Credits, Grade 5 materials or an engineered module.

All the time retaining the existing mechanics that allow those players who want the freedom to farm, explore and hunt in the traditional, easy going, laid back relaxing way, to do so.

After all, how another player gains their credits, assets and rank is of no consequence to me and my style of play.

 

[Brrokk]

In RL I have great sympathy for anyone stuck in a dead-end boring job who carries on doing it because they must, to earn a wage and meet their responsibilities. I don't moan about my job because it's so easy to look around and see people with much worse ones.

But ED is a game. You don't get any RL benefit from playing it. No-one else needs you to play it or wants to force you to play it. It's one of the choices available for leisure time. Therefore, to me it's impossible for it to be a "grind". I do it because I want to, and I stop when I no longer want to continue. Yes, I set myself objectives, but I have full authority to modify those objectives any time I like.

Doing something repetitive which you don't enjoy for hours on end in a game is incomprehensible to me. It's like sawing your own leg off. You can do that if you like, but it's pointless trying to blame anyone else for the resulting pain.

I really don't get how a game of any kind can make me "grind" at all.

 

[BuzzBee]

Yes. There are evidently a LOT of the player base dissatisfied with the way the gameplay currently is. If they all switch off overnight FDev have a big problem. Hence why I tried to suggest we work constructively together to find a solution that suits everyone as much as is practical. I thought I had laid that out reasonably clearly.

No offence intended when I challenged the statement wesmacdon. What are you basing your evidence on? I see comments from a broad section of the forum player base that are both critical and complimentary. But what percentage of the entire Elite player base are actively expressing dissatisfaction on the board?

I'm not sure that stat is quantifiable which is why I suggest that the core game mechanics continue alongside any add ons that might be introduced to appeal to other players.

 

[Brrokk]

Please refer to my op and try to stay within the request. If you don't think the thread is helpful or has any value then please just ignore it. Adding unnecessary noise is detrimental to the desired outcome.

OK, sorry, I've re-read OP and I see that you're particularly looking for solutions, but I don't think I was really too far off-target above. I've tried to indicate that the concept of "grind" carries an inherent self-contradiction in a game setting. To me at least, this means that it's primarily an "in the mind" problem. I think anyone troubled by "grind" should be able to resolve their issue (because it is theirs; that's why some complain of it and others don't) by regaining a sense of perspective and treating ED as just a game. This would involve focussing on the bits they enjoy and avoiding repetition. I'd go so far as to say that if they can't get that focus within ED, it would probably be better to try a different game.

Maybe "a different game" is more drastic than you had in mind for a solution, but it is a solution.

 

[Maka Gucci]

The problem here is that Elite is incompatible with that idea. It is a game that basically consists of flying the ship through space, shooting stuff, hauling stuff and looking at stuff. So it all boils down to the question of whether you enjoy doing those four things (=fun gameplay) or not (=grind)
I really don't see any way of making flying through space more fun for people who don't enjoy flying through space. Do you?
There have been countless threads about this, but until people come with concrete ideas, simply stating that "mechanics are boring" (however it may be true) doesn't solve anything.

It isn't incomparable with that idea. Mengy just gave a great example (similarly to my guardian point). Why are you so adverse to the reality that FDev could do better than the low effort grind they currently implement?

OK, sorry, I've re-read OP and I see that you're particularly looking for solutions, but I don't think I was really too far off-target above. I've tried to indicate that the concept of "grind" carries an inherent self-contradiction in a game setting. To me at least, this means that it's primarily an "in the mind" problem. I think anyone troubled by "grind" should be able to resolve their issue (because it is theirs; that's why some complain of it and others don't) by regaining a sense of perspective and treating ED as just a game. This would involve focussing on the bits they enjoy and avoiding repetition. I'd go so far as to say that if they can't get that focus within ED, it would probably be better to try a different game.

Maybe "a different game" is more drastic than you had in mind for a solution, but it is a solution.

It's objective, its not in the mind.

"https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Bric...g_in_Games.php

A Design Definition of Grinding

For a game designer, grinding can be defined as a part of the game that has both:

Incredibly strong Long Term Incentive to keep the player going forward
Base Mechanics and Punishment and Reward Systems that have already been mastered by the player

In a grind, the player wants to keep going. This is probably because they have already put a substantial amount of effort into the game, and they would like to see it through to the end. If a player has been planting veggies in FarmVille for weeks, and they are very close to being able to afford the barn, then they will be compelled to continue in order to make their previous effort worthwhile. This is an incredibly strong Long Term Incentive; a reward that will come to them in the future in exchange for action in the present.

But a powerful Long Term Incentive on its own doesn’t make it a grind. In addition the player must be performing the same actions over and over, actions that they have already mastered. Walking down a short hallway and opening a single door to find your friend isn’t a grind. Walking down the hallway for 30 minutes and then opening no less than 10 doors is a grind, because you will have already masted the activity long before you complete the challenge."

The new guardian blue prints are a great example of this. Took me about 5 or so hours to kit out the ship, get over there, collect enough mats, work out the puzzle and get a blue print. It was fun, challenging, atmospheric. But they can't stop there, this is elite. I have to do it another 7 times, for one weapon. Hours tacked on, that were not challenging, interesting.. or even atmospheric anymore. Just repetitive, walking down a hall way, repeatedly opening doors, to finally unlock the goal.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

In RL I have great sympathy for anyone stuck in a dead-end boring job who carries on doing it because they must, to earn a wage and meet their responsibilities. I don't moan about my job because it's so easy to look around and see people with much worse ones.

But ED is a game. You don't get any RL benefit from playing it. No-one else needs you to play it or wants to force you to play it. It's one of the choices available for leisure time. Therefore, to me it's impossible for it to be a "grind". I do it because I want to, and I stop when I no longer want to continue. Yes, I set myself objectives, but I have full authority to modify those objectives any time I like.

Doing something repetitive which you don't enjoy for hours on end in a game is incomprehensible to me. It's like sawing your own leg off. You can do that if you like, but it's pointless trying to blame anyone else for the resulting pain.

I really don't get how a game of any kind can make me "grind" at all.

Maybe it's people with these bad jobs spending their cash on games to have some fun time finding out they are not so different from their jobs in game mechanics. So they not only wasted their time finding out about it - but also their spending money and that makes them salty.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Well, for a start there are 3 camps of playing players - those who hate grind, those who like grind and those not grinding at all and just pottering around. As to us solving the problem that's impossible and only FDev can do that.