Grind - can we solve the problem?

[kilvenny]

The solution to me is to find something that will take the focus off the grind or give you a reason to grind that constantly rewards and thus masks the grind.

My simple solution would be to create a ranking system which ranks all the players based on credits and the three main Elite ranking systems. When you hit Elite the background counter that it runs off continues so there is no ceiling. With every commander in the game ranked, every session becomes an opportunity to climb rankings.

I have played a number of MMO's and they always contained grind but the leader boards always provided a reason to do that grind.

 

[Tarman]

The solution to me is to find something that will take the focus off the grind or give you a reason to grind that constantly rewards and thus masks the grind.

My simple solution would be to create a ranking system which ranks all the players based on credits and the three main Elite ranking systems. When you hit Elite the background counter that it runs off continues so there is no ceiling. With every commander in the game ranked, every session becomes an opportunity to climb rankings.

I have played a number of MMO's and they always contained grind but the leader boards always provided a reason to do that grind.

I'd rather that more interesting gameloops be developed for us to engage with, than ranking us for doing the ones that people already despise. I think leaderboards are fine in games built around a more structured and meaningful ranking and progression, but Elite is neither that structured nor does it have greatly meaningful progression (for good or ill).

Firstly, but not as important, is that the ranks themselves can be obtained in so many ways (some shiftier than others) and can be so poor at representing their pilots that they're kind of irrelevant. A highly-skilled combat player who rolls Ironman or someone who just likes a reset every now and then to keep it fresh could be kept from their deserved place on a leaderboard by their constantly renewed status, while an Elite combat ranking on another CMDR could have been gotten purely by res farming.

I also feel that adding a player-ranking system would encourage the most competitive players who are already grinding now to either supergrind always to stay on top of the leaderboard, or burn out completely. It seems like it would lead to more, and more hated, grind than now as people would mostly play the leaderboard, with the rest of their game becoming an extension of playing the leaderboard. That to me actually seems like one of the cores in current grind complaints; people becoming disengaged with the game at large because one part of it dominates their experience (for whatever reason) until the game's not fun. Those that won't care about ranks now still won't care, but they'd probably like better gameplay loops instead.
_

More directed to and at the main topic, I don't even own a grindstone, but not everyone complaining can be doing it wrong even if some of the complaints sound like injured monkeys sometimes. Responding with more injured monkey sounds seems unproductive so I at least am trying to reduce my quota. Sniping is fun and everything but the forum's gone mental lately on all sides.

And yes, I disagreed with the post I quoted. But not by telling kilvenny he's a doodiehead.

 

[GJ51]

Before close...

I have fun working on Voice Attack HCS Singularity and EDDI integretion. Always another step to take.

Ed is just an excuse to have fun with Voice Attack

No grind

 

[Darty]

the game is the same if you play for 5 hours a week, or 5 hours a night. if it was setup to please the folk who play for 5 hours a week, the 5 hour a night folk would get bored pretty quickly.

TL;DR: you can please some of the folk some of the time, blah blah, blah.

I spend way more time in game than I would like to admit a week, and I hate the grind and don't feel like it makes the game better for me.

It's not the rate of progression that I have a problem with, it's the rate of progression combined with the dull mechanics behind the progression that make the game agonizing. There have been times where I felt that for weeks on end I was doing more things that I didn't like because I needed them to progress than I was doing what I actually enjoy. It all comes down to the fact that the rewards systems in this game are very imbalanced in that some activities (usually the ones players enjoy) pay out very little in comparison to others that are dull and boring.

Even when the rate of progression is well balanced, gameplay can become grind when you strip the player of agency, and that is exactly what E does a lot of the time. Want Pharmaceutical isolators? You have to hunt HGR. Want DWE? You have to scan wakes or hope for the rare ESS that has a beacon with DWE. The list goes on.

Again, I would like to stress that I'm not the kind of player who is upset if something take time. I trained 2 NPC's from harmless to expert just from having them defend my from pirates while mining, I've mined nearly half a billion worth of ore, I actually enjoyed unlock Palin to an extent. I'm willing to spend time in game to progress, but I want to have some agency over what I do.

 

[Chris Simon]

Says there is no grind. Then says the engineers are a crazy grind but at least now it has an end. GG.

Don't put your words into Stigbob's mouth.
Just as everything else, engineers are just as much grind as you make them. I get all my mats and data from missions, planetary shenanigans, mining and combat. I have never looked for a specific material and got frustrated if "RNG was against me". I simply play the game my way and once in a while I visit some engineers to see if they can do something nice for me.

 

[jasonbarron]

Don't put your words into Stigbob's mouth.
Just as everything else, engineers are just as much grind as you make them. I get all my mats and data from missions, planetary shenanigans, mining and combat. I have never looked for a specific material and got frustrated if "RNG was against me". I simply play the game my way and once in a while I visit some engineers to see if they can do something nice for me.

If you're casually bumbling around without caring what specific upgrades or even which modules you get materials for, and you're happy with the occasional g3 mod and maybe only have half a dozen out of twenty engineers unlocked in the last 2 years, then yeah, I'm going to go ahead and agree with you on that point, Chris.

 

[Darty]

Don't put your words into Stigbob's mouth.
Just as everything else, engineers are just as much grind as you make them. I get all my mats and data from missions, planetary shenanigans, mining and combat. I have never looked for a specific material and got frustrated if "RNG was against me". I simply play the game my way and once in a while I visit some engineers to see if they can do something nice for me.

That's great for you, but the simple fact is a lot of people don't play the game like you do. A lot of us get bored of just doing the same thing over and over again without any goal or endpoint to move towards. That's the whole reason progression systems exist in games, to give players something to play towards. If the game was meant to be played without setting any goals and just flying around doing random stuff, everything would be free because there's no reason to lock it behind a grind wall.

The whole point of progression systems is to enhance the experience of players with a goal oriented mindset. If the only way to enjoy a progression system is to ignore it then it is clearly not functioning as intended.

 

[Chris Simon]

If you're casually bumbling around without caring what specific upgrades or even which modules you get materials for, and you're happy with the occasional g3 mod and maybe only have half a dozen out of twenty engineers unlocked in the last 2 years, then yeah, I'm going to go ahead and agree with you on that point, Chris.

That's exactly what I'm doing. Although I have to say I have about 80% of the engineers unlocked and during the last two weeks I managed (in the ways I described) to get at least 20 units of EVERY material. (Naturally I didn't start at zero when 3.0 hit)
But yeah, if you are super competitive PvPer, and want to do PvP and disregard the rest of the game, grind and exploits are the only option. Then again, I don't see many PvPers complaining about the grind. It's the other people, newbies and clueless gamers who simply googled up the way to ritches and then get surprised (and ultimately frustrated) by the grind, whom I see moaning here.

That's great for you, but the simple fact is a lot of people don't play the game like you do. A lot of us get bored of just doing the same thing over and over again without any goal or endpoint to move towards. That's the whole reason progression systems exist in games, to give players something to play towards. If the game was meant to be played without setting any goals and just flying around doing random stuff, everything would be free because there's no reason to lock it behind a grind wall.

The whole point of progression systems is to enhance the experience of players with a goal oriented mindset. If the only way to enjoy a progression system is to ignore it then it is clearly not functioning as intended.

I think you don't understand how progression system in Elite is designed. In other games you progress through parts of the game to unlock other parts of the game. Elite doesn't have that. Elite is about freedom and experience (well, for me, at least, I'm sure you will argue against it) and you don't need to "progress" at all to experience the entirety of the game.

 

[Darty]

It's the other people, newbies and clueless gamers that simply google up the way to ritches and then get surprised by the grind, whom I see moaning here.

Yep, every single person who disagrees with you is either a newbie or a clueless gamer who just wants everything right away. No one else has a problem with the game.
/s

 

[Chris Simon]

Yep, every single person who disagrees with you is either a newbie or a clueless gamer who just wants everything right away. No one else has a problem with the game.
/s

Am I wrong when I state that "Person who wants everything right away will get frustrated by the amount of grind that it takes"? No, I think that we agree on that.
What about this: "People who come to the forum and complain about the grind are less happy with the game than people who gave up grinding and decided to experience the entirety of the game in more relaxed way" Still with me?
And how about this: "People who enjoy Elite should try to explain how they achieved that to the people who aren't enjoying the game" Doesn't it seem fair?
And last one: "People who didn't find a way to enjoy Elite shouldn't tell people who do enjoy playing that they are playing it wrong and the game needs to be changed."

Well, that's how I see things.

 

[reazon19]

I'm one of the folks that feels like the grind isn't really that big an issue. This isn't a "I beat the game" kind of game. You play because you enjoy playing not because you want to win.

To me the biggest issue with the grind isn't the amount of time invested, it's more about how all of the different grinds don't seem to connect.

For example, personal opinion, I feel like when it comes to Federation or Empire ranks it should be tied to the individual factions as well as the powers involved in powerplay.

What I mean by that is personally I feel like if you want to grind Empire rank, you should pledge to an Imperial power, your commitment to the power and Empire as a whole should correlate to rank. You would think a King in the Empire would automatically be allied with Imperial minor factions, unless the minor factions are controlled by other Imperial powers, in which case you should still be automatically friendly status. There shouldn't be the individual grinds for each individual factions if the factions are committed to the Empire a d you've already committed enough blood sweat and tears to the Empire.

And also, you shouldn't be allowed to rank up with the Feds if that's the case. A more interesting dynamic would be to allow gameplay that allows one to work with the Federation behind the Empires back, in secret, which is where the powerplay aspect could really come into play

Though I don't know how that could be implemented in the current state of the game mechanics, it does seem a bit more reasonable. At least to me.

 

[jasonbarron]

That's exactly what I'm doing. Although I have to say I have about 80% of the engineers unlocked and during the last two weeks I managed (in the ways I described) to get at least 20 units of EVERY material. (Naturally I didn't start at zero when 3.0 hit)
But yeah, if you are super competitive PvPer, and want to do PvP and disregard the rest of the game, grind and exploits are the only option. Then again, I don't see many PvPers complaining about the grind. It's the other people, newbies and clueless gamers who simply googled up the way to ritches and then get surprised (and ultimately frustrated) by the grind, whom I see moaning here.



I think you don't understand how progression system in Elite is designed. In other games you progress through parts of the game to unlock other parts of the game. Elite doesn't have that. Elite is about freedom and experience (well, for me, at least, I'm sure you will argue against it) and you don't need to "progress" at all to experience the entirety of the game.

I'm not complaining about the grind, I'm calling bull manure on those who claim it isn't there. Prior to 3.0 I have them all unlocked with somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 g5 rolls, and that's not even a pale shadow of what truly dedicated players have accomplished. There is absolutely a grindwall, even if it has been improved. You wouldn't know because you have barely attempted to explore it, which is not something I would criticize you for, but I will absolutely call you out as being stuck in your own extremely narrow, uneducated viewpoint as its you and players of a similar lack of accomplishment who are the first and quickest to tell everybody else how they should play, or what should constitute enjoyment.

 

[Chris Simon]

I'm not complaining about the grind, I'm calling bull manure on those who claim it isn't there. Prior to 3.0 I have them all unlocked with somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 g5 rolls, and that's not even a pale shadow of what truly dedicated players have accomplished. There is absolutely a grindwall, even if it has been improved. You wouldn't know because you have barely attempted to explore it, which is not something I would criticize you for, but I will absolutely call you out as being stuck in your own extremely narrow, uneducated viewpoint as its you and players of a similar lack of accomplishment who are the first and quickest to tell everybody else how they should play, or what should constitute enjoyment.

I am not trying to pretend there isn't a grind. All I do is that I'm trying to convince people who aren't hardcore PvPers (which is 99% of us) that they don't have to grind if they don't want to

 

[kofeyh]

One of the cleverest things in the new and improved engineers is the upgrade cap, it means even crazy grinding has a built in end. That and being able to switch experimental effects whilst keeping the base upgrade, and the mat traders.

For once, sir, I agree. Oh my god kofeyh agreed on something (quick, post that confused reaction to instagram). Ahem. Anyway. Engineering should never have been the blatant gambling it was and I am not at all sorry to see that stupid wheel of fortune and all the other gunk that drove people to distraction, gone. It was daft at release, and never stopped being daft.

Yes, yanking a lever ~14 times, now, is about as rewarding and engaging as doing taxes (shout out to all the accountants out there, am I right?) but at least the endless earlier variant, has been sent to Valhalla.

The engineering now, whilst a bit soulless, is at least consistent and without major extremes; you pull the lever 10-12 times and then you never have to pull the lever for that module ever again. Thank god. The fact that the prior version could be pulled, forever, with horrifically broken outcomes as the rewards, was unforgivable. And the developer remained unrepentant over that for so long. Massive disappointment.

--

There is a belief, that if one "just plays" eventually one can unlock everything. This is true to an extent, but not really in practice. Some things are just cumulative stats. So yes, eventually you will hit elite in combat if you persist in shooting at things. Without focus, however, some achievements (such as unlocking two large ships) won't happen. Because you are required to do rank up missions, and if you never do those, multiple times no less, you will never naturally obtain.

[This is why I was a bit determined about the class 7 distro for type-10; it mattered because that's a solid performer that's not ranked locked that one can naturally obtain over time. It was important it actually provided value as a result.]

Frontier isn't as dim as people want to believe; they force certain actions, for certain outcomes. Good things come to those who wait; but not in Elite. You still have to go get some of them.

 

[kofeyh]

I am not trying to pretend there isn't a grind. All I do is that I'm trying to convince people who aren't hardcore PvPers (which is 99% of us) that they don't have to grind if they don't want to

Without specific actions, for specific goals, there are elements of the game that will remain off-limits. Ignoring the repetition, and suggesting one can 'opt out', ignores that the developer isn't stupid, and they know that just as well as anyone else. What jason is very politely advising you, is the developer has purposefully and with considered intent, placed hurdles for commanders to climb.

Pretending they don't exist, or that they don't require specific, repeated action, doesn't demonstrably change the outcome, that they in fact do. The fundamental belief that everything is available eventually, misses that not everything is. Throwing around percentages of who is what, doesn't change that, I am afraid, and isn't really relevant to the discussion, beyond specific pursuits requiring considerable commitment.

Certainly; don't grind, don't focus on a goal. Just understand there are consequences to taking that path. There always is.

 

[Chris Simon]

Without specific actions, for specific goals, there are elements of the game that will remain off-limits. Ignoring the repetition, and suggesting one can 'opt out', ignores that the developer isn't stupid, and they know that just as well as anyone else. What jason is very politely advising you, is the developer has purposefully and with considered intent, placed hurdles for commanders to climb.

Pretending they don't exist, or that they don't require specific, repeated action, doesn't demonstrably change the outcome, that they in fact do. The fundamental belief that everything is available eventually, misses that not everything is. Throwing around percentages of who is what, doesn't change that, I am afraid, and isn't really relevant to the discussion, beyond specific pursuits requiring considerable commitment.

Again, I am not saying there are no hurdles. After all, without things that require either time or effort to overcome, game wouldn't be a game.
But I am interested in which parts of the game particularly do you consider "locked" for a causual player.

 

[Darty]

That's exactly what I'm doing. Although I have to say I have about 80% of the engineers unlocked and during the last two weeks I managed (in the ways I described) to get at least 20 units of EVERY material. (Naturally I didn't start at zero when 3.0 hit)
But yeah, if you are super competitive PvPer, and want to do PvP and disregard the rest of the game, grind and exploits are the only option. Then again, I don't see many PvPers complaining about the grind. It's the other people, newbies and clueless gamers who simply googled up the way to ritches and then get surprised (and ultimately frustrated) by the grind, whom I see moaning here.



I think you don't understand how progression system in Elite is designed. In other games you progress through parts of the game to unlock other parts of the game. Elite doesn't have that. Elite is about freedom and experience (well, for me, at least, I'm sure you will argue against it) and you don't need to "progress" at all to experience the entirety of the game.

I need to progress to pvp. I need to progress to do power-play (a big ship and a lot of credits are a must). I need to progress to use NPC crew. The entire engineers expansion is all progression. If you want to fly a specific ship, you need to progress.

Your point doesn't even address mine though. I never said you were being forced to progress, I said

That's the whole reason progression systems exist in games, to give players something to play towards. If the game was meant to be played without setting any goals and just flying around doing random stuff, everything would be free because there's no reason to lock it behind a grind wall.

There is no reason for progression mechanics to exist if they aren't supposed to enhance people's experience. When they don't, the fact that they aren't a requirement is no excuse for this.

 

[kofeyh]

But I am interested in which parts of the game particularly do you consider "locked" for a causual player.

Why? You don't think there are any. Me pointing out the ones that are there, that you are either not interested in, or don't believe exist, is like trying to explain orbital mechanics (which I barely comprehend) to a flat-earther. It wouldn't make any difference either way. They won't believe me (and they ignore the science because it doesn't fit their preconceived notion).

Frontier has ensured that some goals require commitment, that stretches out to infinity, without specific focus. This is far from unusual, for a developer to do. Whether that's a good or bad thing is down to the individual. But in my experience, people asking for "proof" or saying "change my mind" aren't, in fact, after either; their decision and belief system is already set.

That's okay though; we disagree, and are being polite about disagreeing. So I'd rather not spend time reiterating points raised by others whom are at times more learned than I am, given they've not swung your view already.

Me? I'd like to see Frontier making the various commitments they've created for the player to be a little more engaging, and with a few more rewards to offset the investment, so that the degree of grind is naturally reduced and we, of course, end up with a few less threads like this; but instead they have gone on a holy crusade to purge the galaxy of all sin and corruption - and keep turning things off. So I imagine I shall be waiting quite a while.

Fly safe, Chris! o7

 

[Chris Simon]

Why? You don't think there are any. Me pointing out the ones that are there, that you are either not interested in, or don't believe exist, is like trying to explain orbital mechanics (which I barely comprehend) to a flat-earther. It wouldn't make any difference either way. They won't believe me; and they ignore the science.

Frontier has ensured that some goals require commitment, that stretches out to infinity, without specific focus. This is far from unusual, for a developer to do. Whether that's a good or bad thing is down to the individual. But in my experience, people asking for "proof" or saying "change my mind" aren't, in fact, after either; their decision and belief system is already set.

That's okay though; we disagree, and are being polite about disagreeing. So I'd rather not spend time reiterating points raised by others whom are at times more learned than I am, given they've not swung your view already.

Fly safe, Chris! o7

Explaining things to me started to feel like a grind, I suspect. So I applaud you for choosing a different path and my apologies for wasting your time.

o7

 

[Dbrn47]

After all, without things that require either time or effort to overcome, game wouldn't be a game.

The more adamant members of the community, the ones that put quite a bit more thought in their posts, at least, don't care about time or effort. We're well aware of and totally fine with things taking time or effort. What we do care about is how fun or engaging those things are. It's said over and over again, but keeps being distilled back down into instant gratification arguments. Frankly, Frontier keeps responding in the same manner by adding time saving features instead of addressing the fact that certain things just feel bad to play with. We're expected to just accept things as they are along with the time and effort. Daft isn't a strong enough word for that.