Modes Don't snub player preference by incentivizing modes

Illustration: engineering. Engineering is incentivized by promising better modules. Not because of the game mechanics attached to engineers. Players are urged to do specific activities they don't want to do in order to progress in the game.

I see the same mechanism for modes, albeit less pronounced. Players at the moment have their individual preference. This can be a dedication to one mode, or choosing a mode that suits them on the day. Players make this decision each time they log on. If you start putting more rewards into one mode, players will now also choose based on that reward. They will not follow their preferred play style, but engage in one they would rather not. Frontier states: we want to promote player interaction in both cooperative and adversarial ways. Which in itself is fine. But do you want to promote that against the wishes of the particular player who would for instance rather not play in and adversarial way? I think we all agree that the outcome we're looking for is: player plays in the promoted mode, likes what he sees and continues to play there out of his or her own accord. I don't think any of us would like to see players being goaded into a mode which wouldn't be the first choice, just because it's the mode that got a reward.

Lets imagine the Elephant in the Room gets a 25% bonus on all kinds of stuff. Players that are working the BGS before in a friendly environment, they like hanging out with their mates, like carving a little empire out for themselves, group up to fight NPCs, that sort of thing. Now a skilled PvP group decides on barging in on their territory. Because they are a skilled PvP group, the risks of Open are relatively small to them. The risk of the players with little skill and desire to play PvP is much greater. In effect becoming a might makes right kind of deal. You either git gud at PvP, or sucks to be you. I'm sure PvP groups are nodding when they read this. Yeah, that's the way it should be. We should be able to dictate terms, because we can beat you in a fight. Which reminds me of a quote from Braben where he specifically stated he didn't want those kind of practices in his game.

Even Frontier seems to need the reminder again and again, not everyone plays this game because of the Player vs Player combat in it. Some shun combat altogether. By forcing them to participate in a mode where they, by definition when they chose that mode, have to engage in an activity they would rather not participate in, they will feel dejected by the game. If they stay in their preferred mode and find that the rewards in the other mode makes it very difficult for them to do what they enjoyed doing, they will feel dejected by it.

Let players decide for themselves. Instead of incentivize, advertize. Show players why they want to go to that mode out of their own volition. Don't tell them what they like or should like. That's not up to you. That's up to the human being that spent money to play your game.
 
How is PVP being incentivized? Seriously, not being flip, i really hadnt noticed. I usually play in open but lately have been playing in pg till i get better at handling interdictions in my t-9 and the two modes seem pretty much the same to me.
 
How is PVP being incentivized?
PvP is not a mode, and at the moment, no mode is being incentivized.

But there are calls to incentivize one mode over the others, and I am arguing against that. I am arguing that if Frontier prefers players in a certain mode to promote that mode. For instance by having temporary promotional events.
 
How is PVP being incentivized? Seriously, not being flip, i really hadnt noticed. I usually play in open but lately have been playing in pg till i get better at handling interdictions in my t-9 and the two modes seem pretty much the same to me.

Currently it isn't.

But with the same couple of dozen PvP'ers making new thread after new thread asking for it, to try and make it seem more popular than it is.
It's worth others making new threads as well, to remind FD a good chunk of their player base likes being able to jump modes or not do any PvP.
 
How is PVP being incentivized? Seriously, not being flip, i really hadnt noticed. I usually play in open but lately have been playing in pg till i get better at handling interdictions in my t-9 and the two modes seem pretty much the same to me.

It isn’t, beyond the fun that you get from participating in PvP in the first place. This is great for everyone who prefers Open, with the exception of a certain type of player who needs to attack players who don’t enjoy PvP, because the players who do, or those who lean in that direction, are too hard to kill. Even when we’re flying unarmed cargo transports.

When people talk about incentivizing “PvP” (which isn’t what Ziggy is talking about), they’re usually talking about attracting more players who don’t enjoy PvP into Open, as opposed to truly incentivizing PvP by rewarding the activity as opposed to the Mode. When people aren’t willingly participating in an activity, they’re not likely to be fun to play with. They’ll combat log, use cheats and exploits, and generally do everything in their power not do what they don’t want to do.

This isn’t fun for anyone, which is why I prefer the current “All Modes are equal” approach.
 
PvP is not a mode, and at the moment, no mode is being incentivized.

But there are calls to incentivize one mode over the others, and I am arguing against that. I am arguing that if Frontier prefers players in a certain mode to promote that mode. For instance by having temporary promotional events.

Isn't every CG PvE?
 
Isn't every CG PvE?

What can be done with just PvE;

Complete all missions on the boards
Community Goals
Power Play
Influence the Background Simulation
Get your Combat Rank, Trade Rank, Exploration Rank to Elite.
Earn lots of credits

What can be done with just PvP;

Get your CQC Rank, Combat Rank and Trade Rank to Elite - eventually.
Complete combat based missions (shoot to kill or shoot and steal)

And I'm being generous adding missions to the PvP section.
As they are primarily PvE game play. I suspect most combat missions would run out of time if people tried to do them PvP only.
 
When people aren’t willingly participating in an activity, they’re not likely to be fun to play with. They’ll combat log, use cheats and exploits, and generally do everything in their power not do what they don’t want to do.

This isn’t fun for anyone, which is why I prefer the current “All Modes are equal” approach.

- board flipping / mission stacking
- uss hunting
- asteroid and surface mining
- ...

this is just about 0.5% of the stuff people do not want to do but routinely do anyway, often even to great length, because they are incentivized. the whole game is pretty much built around this concept, and reading the forumz my impression is that a vast majority of the player base indulges. so i really don't see why modes shouldn't be incentivized when everything else is. not saying they should be either, just that there would be nothing wrong with it in principle.

say you are a solo player doing passenger missions (to pick a popular activity). say the missions get changed so you get 10x reward if they are done in open. this doesn't affect any solo/pg player at all, they could completely ignore it, but i bet it would cause a population increase in open, and an increase in piracy and ganking events to much fun for pirates or gankers, and also for the bus drivers who would see a tenfold increase in their benefits, minus the occasional disgrace. (just a theoretical example. of course most people would be happy and only noobs would explode who hadn't been enlightened in the ways of highwake or combat log, which grant eternal life. a twist would be mission failure if interdicted, that'd be enough risk and 'punishment'. what i mean is that the problem of open is not lack of incentive but the implementation itself, which sucks bigtime, but anyway just an example)

'all modes are equal' is nonsense. it doesn't mean anything, it has no real purpose, it's just the bland rhetoric justifying a cheap implementation and throwing all playing styles into the single mold without any real thought or intention whatsoever. (and our beloved ziggy managed to make a cult out of that!)

now, we all know that given enough time there would be players moaning 'why i am forced into open to earn as much as my siblings there for the same job' which would be obviously fallacious, because, being human, they would perceive the extra reward in open as a nerf to their reward in solo, meaning 'play my own way' often isn't what it seems either. well, that's life on a game forum!
 
Good post thanks Ziggy.
All I can do is add that I completely agreed with you on the matter of mode incentivising, or rather lack of it.
Thank the Braben it will never come to pass while I play.

Ziggy Stardust for President!
 
Well said Ziggy, and duly repped +1

This is already happening with the implementation of Wing Missions as they are currently. Players are being actively penalized based upon playstyle and mode choice - as an individual player can only receive at most 25% payment for mission completion (exact same Mission, thresholds, and completion criteria) than a Wing of 4 will receive - for doing the exact same work.

It's not a problem with the work involved, I can choose my own level of effort. Directly incentivizing PG or Open, at the expense of Solo is what is at heart here.

I love Wing Missions, but feel that they should pay a set amount - then it is up to me to negotiate appropriate payment with my Wingmates, as then I have control over their level of involvement and reward.
 
Last edited:
- board flipping / mission stacking
- uss hunting
- asteroid and surface mining
- ...

this is just about 0.5% of the stuff people do not want to do but routinely do anyway, often even to great length, because they are incentivized. the whole game is pretty much built around this concept, and reading the forumz my impression is that a vast majority of the player base indulges. so i really don't see why modes shouldn't be incentivized when everything else is. not saying they should be either, just that there would be nothing wrong with it in principle.

say you are a solo player doing passenger missions (to pick a popular activity). say the missions get changed so you get 10x reward if they are done in open. this doesn't affect any solo/pg player at all, they could completely ignore it, but i bet it would cause a population increase in open, and an increase in piracy and ganking events to much fun for pirates or gankers, and also for the bus drivers who would see a tenfold increase in their benefits, minus the occasional disgrace. (just a theoretical example. of course most people would be happy and only noobs would explode who hadn't been enlightened in the ways of highwake or combat log, which grant eternal life. a twist would be mission failure if interdicted, that'd be enough risk and 'punishment'. what i mean is that the problem of open is not lack of incentive but the implementation itself, which sucks bigtime, but anyway just an example)

'all modes are equal' is nonsense. it doesn't mean anything, it has no real purpose, it's just the bland rhetoric justifying a cheap implementation and throwing all playing styles into the single mold without any real thought or intention whatsoever. (and our beloved ziggy managed to make a cult out of that!)

now, we all know that given enough time there would be players moaning 'why i am forced into open to earn as much as my siblings there for the same job' which would be obviously fallacious, because, being human, they would perceive the extra reward in open as a nerf to their reward in solo, meaning 'play my own way' often isn't what it seems either. well, that's life on a game forum!

Say I’m playing on my XB1 account in Open over my WiFi for the last two weeks of passenger mission runs where I’ve made hundreds of millions and have never seen another player. Zero risk for all that extra reward in Open, right? Victim of instancing? P2P? Low population on XB1?

Not sold on incentivizing modes as doing anything in reality. Now making more robust PP/BGS manipulation mechanics while tooling C&P is, IMO, the way to go.
 
Not sold on incentivizing modes as doing anything in reality. Now making more robust PP/BGS manipulation mechanics while tooling C&P is, IMO, the way to go.

i totally agree, there's no point. and that wasn't my point btw.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
- board flipping / mission stacking
- uss hunting
- asteroid and surface mining
- ...

this is just about 0.5% of the stuff people do not want to do but routinely do anyway, often even to great length, because they are incentivized. the whole game is pretty much built around this concept, and reading the forumz my impression is that a vast majority of the player base indulges. so i really don't see why modes shouldn't be incentivized when everything else is. not saying they should be either, just that there would be nothing wrong with it in principle.

Primarily because 30 years of online game development has clearly demonstrated that nothing good comes from trying to get players who don't enjoy PvP to play in the same environment as those who do. Which is what incentivising Open mode is intended to do: get the players who don't enjoy the environment in Open to come back, by essentially bribing them to do so. It will certainly attract players, but it tends to attract the kind of players who aren't fun to play with.

Do you think Open has a combat logging problem now? It'll become worse. Do you find "high waking" to be "cheating?" It'll become worse. Do not be surprised if some of these players utilize every tool available to them to ensure that they'll get to enjoy the benefits of Open, without having to become a target for the amusement of others. If they found that kind of thing fun, they'd already be playing in Open.

say you are a solo player doing passenger missions (to pick a popular activity). say the missions get changed so you get 10x reward if they are done in open. this doesn't affect any solo/pg player at all, they could completely ignore it, but i bet it would cause a population increase in open, and an increase in piracy and ganking events to much fun for pirates or gankers, and also for the bus drivers who would see a tenfold increase in their benefits, minus the occasional disgrace. (just a theoretical example. of course most people would be happy and only noobs would explode who hadn't been enlightened in the ways of highwake or combat log, which grant eternal life. a twist would be mission failure if interdicted, that'd be enough risk and 'punishment'. what i mean is that the problem of open is not lack of incentive but the implementation itself, which sucks bigtime, but anyway just an example)

To be quite frank, I have no interest in increasing the enjoyment of gankers in this game, because they aren't much fun to play with. They tend to suffer from "sudden network failure syndrome" whenever faced by something resembling a fair fight, react so poorly whenever a mark goes off script that they aren't much of a threat, and are terrible conversationalists to boot.

Also I've been playing this game since Alpha, primarily in Open, and I can count the number of actual pirate attacks with one hand, with fingers left over if I don't count the encounters I've had during Powerplay as "pirate" attacks. I would rather have the game incentivize actually fun PvP, rather than simply lure more targets into Open, so they experience incredibly awful "PvP."

'all modes are equal' is nonsense. it doesn't mean anything, it has no real purpose, it's just the bland rhetoric justifying a cheap implementation and throwing all playing styles into the single mold without any real thought or intention whatsoever. (and our beloved ziggy managed to make a cult out of that!)


And yet this has been Frontier's stance from day one of the Kickstarter.

now, we all know that given enough time there would be players moaning 'why i am forced into open to earn as much as my siblings there for the same job' which would be obviously fallacious, because, being human, they would perceive the extra reward in open as a nerf to their reward in solo, meaning 'play my own way' often isn't what it seems either. well, that's life on a game forum!

That is true.

I do find it curious that its only a tiny minority of Open players who complain about not getting bonuses in Open. You'd think that given the supposed size of Open, there would be a greater call for that kind of thing. It's almost as if many of the Open players would rather have willing players in Open, as opposed to players who have to be bribed to be there. I wonder why...
 
30 years of online game development has clearly demonstrated that nothing good comes from trying to get players who don't enjoy PvP to play in the same environment as those who do.

i'm not so sure. it is indeed a difficult balance and more often than not addressed by keeping them separate, or making them interact in a controlled way. lots of mechanics have been implemented with varying success: danger zones, pvp flags, pk flags, matching of player competitiveness ratings ... most of these introduce or are implemented in a way to provide gameplay and interaction per se. however ...

And yet this has been Frontier's stance from day one of the Kickstarter.

... yeah, well, does that make any difference? it can't be denied that the way frontier addresses this is pretty radical: just lump everybody on the same virtual world but put them in separate instances, done. this is no solution at all as it just bluntly ignores the issue and obviously creates some contradictions in the process. so kickstarter promised everyone could have his cake, and the end product is this modes nonsense? takes some balls :D of course the result may please some, but there is a reason the open/solo divide is by far the single most controversial topic on this forum. it is basically a solo game where players can meet if they so wish (and are lucky). which is a stance as valid as any other but calling this a multiplayer universe requires quite a leap of imagination. note i said multiplayer, not pvp.

when frontier says 'you can have it all' it's just not true: what you actually have is a hybrid which neither profits from the lesser constraints any other solo game does, nor is a minimally serious multiplayer game. even if they have been chanting it since the dawn of times, it's still an aberration. :D

Which is what incentivising Open mode is intended to do: get the players who don't enjoy the environment in Open to come back, by essentially bribing them to do so. It will certainly attract players, but it tends to attract the kind of players who aren't fun to play with.

i do not have a stance in that, just discussing the principle. imo the game has more severe problems to fix first (like, as you predict, cheating and clogging becoming rampant, but not only), this "inicentivizing open" would be just a bandaid. but i disagree with your prediction which looks biased to me. my example (again, just-an-example) is a fair deal: wanna cash 10x? go open. can't be bothered? then don't! this doesn't mean at all having to engage in pvp. pve players routinely escape from npc, this would only mean escaping from actual players instead. requires 0.01 milligram more skill? ok, it's still a win-win. some, after the initial shock, might even like the experience! again no bias here: i'm not advocating for this at all, just saying there would be nothing wrong with it and it could have positive effects. but neither is it my priority, nor do i think the game infrastructure is reliable enough for this to make much sense.

it makes as little sense as the "don't snub player preference" argument. players do have a choice, players would continue to have a choice. similarly, i can choose not to give a flying fig about thargoids because the smart(tm) mastermind behind the gameplay decided to wall them behind a boring mario-land type grind of stars and candies collection ... so i don't give a flying fig. actually, unlike pvers in my example, i do have to give up on content for my choice. is my preference not that much snubbed? i really don't think so. choice means having to choose, it never meant having it all. you can't have it all, no matter what frontier touts :p

and regarding "advertize, don't incentivize" ... well, that's all fine and good. specially because it, again, shifts the whole responsibility on the players. i can understand that frontier, being actually in charge of running this circus, might find that's an excellent suggestion. (psst, actually, frontier doesn't give a crap (see above). while the shop keeps chiming, this has long ago just degenerated into an eternal flame war between pve and pvp fanatics :D)
 
it makes as little sense as the "don't snub player preference" argument. players do have a choice, players would continue to have a choice. similarly, i can choose not to give a flying fig about thargoids because the smart(tm) mastermind behind the gameplay decided to wall them behind a boring mario-land type grind of stars and candies collection ... so i don't give a flying fig. actually, unlike pvers in my example, i do have to give up on content for my choice. is my preference not that much snubbed? i really don't think so. choice means having to choose, it never meant having it all. you can't have it all, no matter what frontier touts :p
Choice is not preference. If you prefer to play Mode A, but Mode B gives 25% extra on stuff, you may chose to play Mode B for the extra reward. But Mode B is not your preference.

and regarding "advertize, don't incentivize" ... well, that's all fine and good. specially because it, again, shifts the whole responsibility on the players. i can understand that frontier, being actually in charge of running this circus, might find that's an excellent suggestion. (psst, actually, frontier doesn't give a crap (see above). while the shop keeps chiming, this has long ago just degenerated into an eternal flame war between pve and pvp fanatics :D)
Frontier can't organise promotional events? I would say, they are the perfect candidate to do so if they want to get more players in Open.
 
Back
Top Bottom