FDL, needing a little advice from seasoned Cmdr's

[tolm]

I’ve actually found the FDL pretty good for power/heat: even with a G1 Low Emissions mod on my PP I’m happily running 4x G3 Efficient C2 beams (along with the C4 MC) BUT I did need to put Flow Control on all 4 to avoid powering down my FSD when deploying hard points AND I’m purely RES hunting, so not running an Interdictor or Wake Scanner. If I needed those I would certainly need to push the FSD down the priority list and possibly power down the interdictor/Wake scanner when deploying weapons, which would really slow down a chase waiting for them to power back up! So - there may be an alternative build in my future ...

One nice feature might be to (optionally) power down a weapon when it’s not in your current active Fire Group ... that would allow you the option of taking (for example) the big ol’ MC offline in order to get access to Utility Mounts without putting away ALL your weapons.

 

[lenna]

I would vehemently disagree with the idea of mounting twin PDs on a [PvE] FDL. It's not concentrated coverage which might actually stop a gank-torpedo in PVP

Depending on the precise positioning of twin PDs the coverage can have some overlap while providing adequate general coverage. Without looking more closely at the precise mounting points on my FDL I can not say exactly where the overlap is, but the FDL can always orient itself appropriately.

As for the PvP aspect, it is moot if you are talking about a PvE build. The universe does not revolve around PvP.

I would not personally vehemently disagree with ANY specific build recommendations or personal choices - to do so would be the height of hubris.

 

[tolm]

I would vehemently disagree with the idea of mounting twin PDs on a [PvE] FDL. It's not concentrated coverage which might actually stop a gank-torpedo in PVP and - more crucially - you are engineering for failure [shields have dropped, missile spam commenced] instead of engineering for success [HAHAHAHA I laugh at your puny missiles with my stacked resists!!! If my shields don't drop, they won't even bother launching them!]. It's covering off a weakness which - if you instead leverage the STRENGTH of the ship - does not need to be a weakness.


You're sacrificing 25% across the board resistance [including explosive] and a 40% MJ boost for what... the ability to mostly ignore a missile which comprises maybe 5% of incoming attacks and you'd be reducing damage by 25% against, anyway.

I’d have to agree - my FDL is based around the principle that the shields will not drop so I maxed out my resistances. It’s also fast enough to outrun just about anything apart from a fighter.

 

[lenna]

I’d have to agree - my FDL is based around the principle that the shields will not drop so I maxed out my resistances. It’s also fast enough to outrun just about anything apart from a fighter.

I think you may get a rude awakening when FD have finished their tweaks to bring more parity between shields and hull - absolute damage weapons and shield ignoring/penetrating weapons for example.

 

[Siranui]

Depending on the precise positioning of twin PDs the coverage can have some overlap

Chap, they could both have full 360 coverage, and it would STILL be a waste of utility slots.

I mentioned PvP as a possible redeeming point for twin PDs. If it's pure PvE then twin PDs on a FDL becomes even *less* useful.

Break it down:

What percentage of the weapons people are firing at you missiles when you have shields? What percentage of the time are the PD's effective? Multiply the two. That's how useful they are. Now half it, to represent shield soak, because shields laugh off missiles anyway. They're not a serious threat.

Now let's look at two additional boosters: Say we've hit diminishing returns, and only get 20% of resists. So that's 20% less damage against ALL attacks bar ramming and PAs, Plus - if you already have 2 boosters - about a 30% boost to shield strength. Look how much damage that absorbs, compared to puny PDs.

Of course, it's PvE, so pretty much anything can 'work' at farming the bots, but it's massively inefficient.

 

[lenna]

Chap, they could both have full 360 coverage, and it would STILL be a waste of utility slots.

I mentioned PvP as a possible redeeming point for twin PDs. If it's pure PvE then twin PDs on a FDL becomes even *less* useful.

Break it down:

What percentage of the weapons people are firing at you missiles when you have shields? What percentage of the time are the PD's effective? Multiply the two. That's how useful they are. Now half it, to represent shield soak, because shields laugh off missiles anyway. They're not a serious threat.

Now let's look at two additional boosters: Say we've hit diminishing returns, and only get 20% of resists. So that's 20% less damage against ALL attacks bar ramming and PAs, Plus - if you already have 2 boosters - about a 30% boost to shield strength. Look how much damage that absorbs, compared to puny PDs.

Of course, it's PvE, so pretty much anything can 'work' at farming the bots, but it's massively inefficient.

You are ignoring the power draw factors, with the advertised loadout I posted earlier "without engineering considerations" the power is already tight - replace my two PD with two class A SB's and while greater damage resistance may be possible on the shields that damage resistance won't help you against absolute damage weapons nor will it help the fact that power management would be a greater concern. As it stands with the build I advertised earlier, power management is not a major concern in order to keep the ship functional (weapon deployment only requires the SRV and Fuel Scoop to be disabled - without engineering). With engineering, the situation changes slightly but a lot depends on the engineering choices.

With just two SB's you can basically bring all damage resistance to the point where absolute damage weapons will only provide ~10% gain over thermal weapons while still retaining missile defence for the rare occasions when your shields may go down.

Over stacking shield boosters is massively inefficient from my perspective, especially where the FDL is concerned. With the Chieftain, on the other hand - stacking shield boosters is a fair option.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

I would not personally vehemently disagree with ANY specific build recommendations or personal choices - to do so would be the height of hubris.

Repent! The Age of the Mining Laser De Lance is nigh!

 

[lenna]

Repent! The Age of the Mining Laser De Lance is nigh!

With a long-range mod and shield ignoring special it might not be that unrealistic

On a more serious note, there are some builds which make little or no sense for "practical" reasons but that does not apply to any of the builds posted in good-faith to date are concerned. The comments regarding corrosive damage effect and the lack of stacking was a fair comment but the trash talk regarding the build decisions behind my build posted earlier is largely trolling from the meta-sheep.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

With a long-range mod and shield ignoring special it might not be that unrealistic

On a more serious note, there are some builds which make little or no sense for "practical" reasons but that does not apply to any of the builds posted in good-faith to date are concerned. The comments regarding corrosive damage effect and the lack of stacking was a fair comment but the trash talk regarding the build decisions behind my build posted earlier is largely trolling from the meta-sheep.

No. It wasn't trolling. It really, really wasn't.

 

[lenna]

No. It wasn't trolling. It really, really wasn't.

It was but that particular line of debate can only go in one direction - and not a good one.

The OP's question and subsequent questions have been answered, further comments regarding my particular build decisions are neither solicited nor warranted.

 

[tolm]

I think you may get a rude awakening when FD have finished their tweaks to bring more parity between shields and hull - absolute damage weapons and shield ignoring/penetrating weapons for example.

Maybe ... depends on whether NPCs start rocking those sort of weapons. I can see in PvP that “super shields” might be annoying to fight against (and, incidentally, I’m not sure I “agree” with SCBs as a thing) but making weapons that simply ignore shields? That just breaks the game for me.

Hull should be tougher than shields - and we already need different weapon types to do damage quickly to both - so I think the issue (and I think it’s a PvP issue) is module sniping. Shields protect from overall damage AND module damage, Hull only protects against overall damage. A better balancer (rather than just make shields pointless!) would be to not allow any damage against modules until a certain amount of hull damage has been done - ie you have to “break through” - which increases the better quality your hull is. If that’s already the case then I fail to see what the “issue” really is. I’d hate to see them wreck PvE for the casual player because some folks in PvP abused the SCB approach. Frankly, I’d rather they just removed SCBs altogether than introduce weapons which negate shields.

 

[jasonbarron]

I think you may get a rude awakening when FD have finished their tweaks to bring more parity between shields and hull - absolute damage weapons and shield ignoring/penetrating weapons for example.

What are you talking about?

 

[Stealthie]

With a long-range mod and shield ignoring special it might not be that unrealistic

You know it's not possible to engineer mining lasers, right?

 

[jasonbarron]

You know it's not possible to engineer mining lasers, right?

After looking at that "nominal" FdL build you do have to wonder

 

[lenna]

You know it's not possible to engineer mining lasers, right?

Did you not note the winky and the fully intended counter sarcasm?

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

It was but that particular line of debate can only go in one direction - and not a good one.

The OP's question and subsequent questions have been answered, further comments regarding my particular build decisions are neither solicited nor warranted.

Tough.

You keep talking like you know anything about the FDL (on a public forum, btw) folks who do know all about the FDL are gonna wanna have words.

Maybe you could put your illusion of superiority away and try to learn something? Who knows, you might even gasp enjoy the game more.

 

[Siranui]

Hull should be tougher than shields - and we already need different weapon types to do damage quickly to both - so I think the issue (and I think it’s a PvP issue) is module sniping. Shields protect from overall damage AND module damage, Hull only protects against overall damage. A better balancer (rather than just make shields pointless!) would be to not allow any damage against modules until a certain amount of hull damage has been done - ie you have to “break through” - which increases the better quality your hull is. If that’s already the case then I fail to see what the “issue” really is. I’d hate to see them wreck PvE for the casual player because some folks in PvP abused the SCB approach. Frankly, I’d rather they just removed SCBs altogether than introduce weapons which negate shields.

Based on personal feelings on what you'd prefer the game's technology to represent. I know: I went through a initial phase of referring the SCBs as 'healing potions' myself, but they rationalise pretty easily.
I see shields as the paradigm in ship defence. Like actual armour on the medieval battlefield: Very effective. Sure: You can fight without it, but you're at a disadvantage. It's not 'balanced': Hull is a secondary - semi-porous defence. This is straying onto feelings about what our personal vision of the future is, rather than FDL builds. It's irrelevant because shields am gud, like it or not.

To cut back to topic: Good shields with a hunk of boosters and SCBs plays to the FDL's strengths. Engineer for success, not to reinforce weakness. Sure, you can do it other ways - your ship, your money - but we are being asked for recommendations, and I recommend using the right tool for the job: shield-blag for a FDL.

I'm not sure why the idea of having good shields with boosters and SCBs is a PvP 'Abuse' and locks out casual PvE players? I'm guessing you don't like PvP and you don't like SCBs, but the two aren't strictly linked. It's not like PvPers have the monopoly on doing maths and adapting to the mechanics.

 

[C64Fan]

Tough.

You keep talking like you know anything about the FDL (on a public forum, btw) folks who do know all about the FDL are gonna wanna have words.

Maybe you could put your illusion of superiority away and try to learn something? Who knows, you might even gasp enjoy the game more.

Relax, man. Many of your posts seem to be overly aggressive or negative, and often unwarrented. It gets no one anywhere. Relax, please - and be more kind. You’ll feel better and so will those around you.

 

[lenna]

You keep talking like you know anything about the FDL (on a public forum, btw) folks who do know all about the FDL are gonna wanna have words.

Where builds are concerned, it is ALL just opinion - there are very little true facts wrt what constitutes a "reasonable" build.

What some refuse to accept is regardless of their opinion, it is just opinion, and despite that proceed to exhibit obvious prejudice against anyone that do not agree with their particular brand of builds to the point of getting (at least) borderline personal about it.

Where my specific build(s) are concerned, they generally do not subscribe to the usual metas because they are built based on my own in-game experience and what I personally see as either necessary or desirable choices based on my own gameplay related choices. I do not PvP and thus the PvP arguments are moot and should I ever decide to engage in PvP I would equip the relevant ships as I deem appropriate based on my own experience rather than subscribing to artificial metas based on a particular subset of experiences. Or to put it another way, I design my ship loadouts around me, rather than try and shoe horn myself into a particular playstyle required by any given meta.

As for my builds derived from my experience, people can try to play spread-sheet warrior all day but that does not mean that my builds are in any way wrong nor are necessarily a poor choice for specifically any given individual. They may be wrong for you personally, but that does not make them wrong overall.

I have not stated anywhere that my build is universally applicable, nor have I stated it is a perfect build for PvP, nor have I stated it is a perfect build for all PvE activities. Nor have I suggested that anyone should not be using any other build either. The degree of critique from at least some quarters in this thread has been extreme, outspoken, and IMO unreasonable in general approach to the discussion at hand (perhaps even bringing in personal prejudices from other discussions because I happened to disagree with them).

 

[Siranui]

You are ignoring the power draw factors

Get a bigger powerplant. Don't run prismatics if you want to run high-draw weapons.

damage resistance won't help you against absolute damage weapons

No, which is why I specifically mentioned both PAs and rams when we were doing the number thing back there. The point has already been accounted for. I'd wager that the percentage of attacks which are absolute is probably not too far off the number which can be countered with PD. So my resists are effective against all but that percentage of attacks [5%?], and your approach with PDs is effective ONLY that percentage.

Not to mention... 40% extra base MJ, which is still there vs. absolute.

nor will it help the fact that power management would be a greater concern.

It's a concern, but we can add up! If it is a concern [on an engineered build], use E class boosters, which retain the resist, with less boost.

As it stands with the build I advertised earlier, power management is not a major concern

Having spare power means sticking in some extra things to use it up, though! We don't get paid for not using it all...

With just two SB's you can basically bring all damage resistance to the point where absolute damage weapons will only provide ~10% gain over thermal weapons while still retaining missile defence for the rare occasions when your shields may go down.
Over stacking shield boosters is massively inefficient from my perspective, especially where the FDL is concerned. With the Chieftain, on the other hand - stacking shield boosters is a fair option.

Remember you've still getting the raw MJ of the shield boost. That's stops those shields dropping in the first place. Again, I have a play-to-the-advantages, not play-to-get-served policy, especially when dealing with such an outstanding aspect of the ship - it's shields. Yeah; totally stick 2 PDs on a Gunship or FAS because you're going to lose those shields in a significant number of furballs, but a FDL... naaaaaaah.