Who would do this? (New Engineer scenario)

[Valen Zendaris]

I'll revise my earlier comment, because I apparently mistook your intent as the example depicted just doesn't make much sense to me.

Would I do an activity that is extremely difficult, tedious or requires tremendous amounts of time for very little or even no reward? Yes, I would. If undertaking that activity is such a challenge that it requires some planning, skill and/or thought on my part to successfully complete it, then that is already rewarding enough. If that challenge is just a repetition of some simple arbitrary activity over and over again, but yields a greater reward, then no I would not like to do such and consider that as a grind.

Hope that answers the question.

 

[M00ka]

I'll revise my earlier comment, because I apparently mistook your intent as the example depicted just doesn't make much sense to me.

Would I do an activity that is extremely difficult, tedious or requires tremendous amounts of time for very little or even no reward? Yes, I would. If undertaking that activity is such a challenge that it requires some planning, skill and/or thought on my part to successfully complete it, then that is already rewarding enough. If that challenge is just a repetition of some simple arbitrary activity over and over again, but yields a greater reward, then no I would not like to do such and consider that as a grind.

Hope that answers the question.

Thanks and it does answer my question. I think most players wouldn't mind a grindfest type task or mission, notwithstanding what type of reward at the end, if the task was at least interesting or a challenge. Presently, most of the grind inducing tasks that people are complaining about are too random, no skill or thought involved. Flying aimlessly around a system, hoping to find the right USS, driving for hours on a planet, eyes glued rigidly to the scanner for any sign activity just isn't fun or even difficult. It is just boring. But if the task has a decent back story, a reason to do it, even if it might not result in riches, and some common sense methodology on why we are doing it, then maybe it won't be such a grind.

 

[Schmack]

The amount of salt that could be mined by griefing folks right at that station would be epic. That would probably bring SDC back from the grave.

 

[Schmack]

Answer me this: Can you play the game in an non-engineered ship or are you prohibited from leaving the dock?

Never said engineering isn't a desirable requirement, but some here are saying you basically can't play or at least not worth playing, the game unless you have a fully engineered ship. Which is a load of Earth Excrement! All engineering has accomplished in the game is create a power war, a perceived requirement that unless you spend an exorbitant amount of time running around collecting mats, chasing down engineers you can't play the game. The only exclusion I can think of is PvP in Open, and they are such a small minority in the overall scheme of things it hardly matters. And the result, "Look at me, I have an uber Cutter, I can kill any ship I see, err as long as it is in my system cos it has a jump rank of 0.8LYs"

There have been players that have circumnavigated the galaxy in a stock standard Sidely, we all managed quite well before the introduction of Engineers but for some reason it has now become the ONLY focus to so many, who then complain about every aspect of the Engineers, including the grind.

How would you cross the galaxy in a stock Sidey when it doesn't come with a fuel scoop? Stock means from the factory, not - from the factory, without engineering.

 

[Vasious]

I knew someone would do the math - well done. So would you consider the task a grind or, going by your post, something worthwhile?

I wouldn't consider at a grind as there is the possibility of doing exploration on each leg of the journey even if that slows down the whole process.

Vs just repeating the same activity over and over again with no variance

 

[6opoDuJIo]

Answer me this: Can you play the game in an non-engineered ship or are you prohibited from leaving the dock?

Answer me this : would you be able get entire game content without engineering?
Game is far beyond than just "leaving the dock". Let me explain :
Exploration? Some systems are not available for non-engineered ships just because they're too far away.
Combat? High-rank combat missions just basically unplayable for non-engineered ships (you'd be popped out in a blink). Target might also just wake out of you if you're killing them too slow (maybe, searching for some other player that will kill them with anything else than a boredom).
Wing (combat) missions? Well, if you enjoy doing nothing and waiting for your folks to do the job, you won't even need a ship, just sit into a multicrew of a ferdelance and control his heatsinks he'll never use.
Trading? Well, possible, and might be even enjoyable if you're german and need a break off truck simulator.
Wing (trading) missions? Well, possible, if you enjoy slowing your wingmates down by doing 1.5-2 times more jumps per mission than your wingmates.
What else? mining? Even here you might like getting better shields to have space to run away off random pirates encounter. And even IF you always just jettison demanded cargo, you might like better distributor and thrusters, or you'll be slow cow.
Player piracy? you'll need charisma and (at least) FSD disruption stuff and mines. Or just plain good old weapons.
PVP? I'l just leave space for GCI answer here.
Canyon racing? you'll lose any of your race.
Smuggling? well, smuggling without proper thrusters and PP at some ships might be even a good challenge. Even tried it without engineering, tho.

So, basically, most of players with even basic engineering WILL always perform better than non-engineered ship. It's the whole point of engineering - to make you capable to perform better. The issue here and why it's necessary is just because difference is too high. In case it'll be, let me say, 10% or 5%, in that case it wouldn't be much of a necessity.

Basically, yes, you can dock and undock without engineering. You might even try some stuff without engineering. But you'll find game being harsh. Having even basic mods makes game more enjoyable and fun to play, just because you're able to do more.
p.s. try dirty-drive-5 ferdelance. It's amazing.

 

[Valen Zendaris]

Thanks and it does answer my question. I think most players wouldn't mind a grindfest type task or mission, notwithstanding what type of reward at the end, if the task was at least interesting or a challenge. Presently, most of the grind inducing tasks that people are complaining about are too random, no skill or thought involved. Flying aimlessly around a system, hoping to find the right USS, driving for hours on a planet, eyes glued rigidly to the scanner for any sign activity just isn't fun or even difficult. It is just boring. But if the task has a decent back story, a reason to do it, even if it might not result in riches, and some common sense methodology on why we are doing it, then maybe it won't be such a grind.

I wholeheartedly agree. The aid of all those CMDRs hauling meta-alloys out to Colonia on short notice to ensure the success of the Enigma Expedition is a prime example of a narrative driven challenge that was essentially "just a jump grind" yielding no additional in-game reward for the individual player. The Hutton run also falls into this category from what I've read.

I'm currently undertaking the Outlander Challenge because it is interesting to attempt that journey all the way out to Colonia in such a restricted ship like the sidewinder. It's not the most thought provoking, but more of a concentration and endurance challenge/marathon. To increase the difficulty I limited my assets to 120k so my build could not exceed that budget, and I could only earn those credits by completing courier missions between independent systems (to avoid increasing any ranks or superpower reputation). It took me about 8 in-game hours to make those credits, meticulously choosing what mission to take from who and where to. All in all, a very rewarding challenge IMO requiring lots of careful decisions, with very little in-game reward. I mean, that's 15k credits/hour!

The bottom line seems to be that successfully completing a challenge or activity does not require a reward, if the process feels like an achievement.

 

[Valen Zendaris]

How would you cross the galaxy in a stock Sidey when it doesn't come with a fuel scoop? Stock means from the factory, not - from the factory, without engineering.

Um... hire the fuelrats?
Sorry I couldn't resist.

 

[Schmack]

Um... hire the fuelrats?
Sorry I couldn't resist.

Ya I didn't think of that.

"I need you again. No, I'm about 23 LY from where you left me, can you just stay with me?"

 

[Valen Zendaris]

Ya I didn't think of that.

"I need you again. No, I'm about 23 LY from where you left me, can you just stay with me?"

Alternatively just sign up with a stock sidey for DWE2, there are plenty of fuelrats tagging along.

No, no! Must stop. :x You're giving me ideas...

 

[6opoDuJIo]

Alternatively just sign up with a stock sidey for DWE2, there are plenty of fuelrats tagging along.

No, no! Must stop. :x You're giving me ideas...

More ideas for you - get a flock of your friends in a sidey's and proceed for DWE 2. Rats would be quietly surprised by amount of rat signals coming from sidey's somewhere far away from bubble
For even more surprise, take someone with fuel transfer anaconda, head far away from any outpost at DWE2 route, and only THEN call fuel rats and tell them that you were just "hangin' around and lost all of my fuel"
p.s. you can also call fuel corgie's and fuel husky's additionally. watch them killing each other with limpets.

 

[NW3]

ED is certainly repetitive, but so are most games. I do think a lot of the worst grinding is self-imposed: "I MUST fully engineer my entire fleet." I don't understand that mentality. I have done some engineering for 3 of my ships and even the one I fly almost all of the time isn't fully engineered. My AspX now has a jump range of 49 lyrs. That's all that really matters to me.

As to the OP, no, I don't think I would, but I would consider it, at least briefly. If it only required a single trip to Colonia, I would do it for sure.

I considered getting the new Guardian FSD boost, but decided it wasn't worth it. The requirement is too repetitive and therefore, boring.

 

[M00ka]

Answer me this : would you be able get entire game content without engineering?
Game is far beyond than just "leaving the dock". Let me explain :
Exploration? Some systems are not available for non-engineered ships just because they're too far away.
Combat? High-rank combat missions just basically unplayable for non-engineered ships (you'd be popped out in a blink). Target might also just wake out of you if you're killing them too slow (maybe, searching for some other player that will kill them with anything else than a boredom).
Wing (combat) missions? Well, if you enjoy doing nothing and waiting for your folks to do the job, you won't even need a ship, just sit into a multicrew of a ferdelance and control his heatsinks he'll never use.
Trading? Well, possible, and might be even enjoyable if you're german and need a break off truck simulator.
Wing (trading) missions? Well, possible, if you enjoy slowing your wingmates down by doing 1.5-2 times more jumps per mission than your wingmates.
What else? mining? Even here you might like getting better shields to have space to run away off random pirates encounter. And even IF you always just jettison demanded cargo, you might like better distributor and thrusters, or you'll be slow cow.
Player piracy? you'll need charisma and (at least) FSD disruption stuff and mines. Or just plain good old weapons.
PVP? I'l just leave space for GCI answer here.
Canyon racing? you'll lose any of your race.
Smuggling? well, smuggling without proper thrusters and PP at some ships might be even a good challenge. Even tried it without engineering, tho.

So, basically, most of players with even basic engineering WILL always perform better than non-engineered ship. It's the whole point of engineering - to make you capable to perform better. The issue here and why it's necessary is just because difference is too high. In case it'll be, let me say, 10% or 5%, in that case it wouldn't be much of a necessity.

Basically, yes, you can dock and undock without engineering. You might even try some stuff without engineering. But you'll find game being harsh. Having even basic mods makes game more enjoyable and fun to play, just because you're able to do more.
p.s. try dirty-drive-5 ferdelance. It's amazing.

So how do all the players who have said they never bought Horizons, or everyone who plays on an Apple get by?

 

[M00ka]

ED is certainly repetitive, but so are most games. I do think a lot of the worst grinding is self-imposed: "I MUST fully engineer my entire fleet." I don't understand that mentality. I have done some engineering for 3 of my ships and even the one I fly almost all of the time isn't fully engineered. My AspX now has a jump range of 49 lyrs. That's all that really matters to me.

As to the OP, no, I don't think I would, but I would consider it, at least briefly. If it only required a single trip to Colonia, I would do it for sure.

I considered getting the new Guardian FSD boost, but decided it wasn't worth it. The requirement is too repetitive and therefore, boring.

Thanks, and I am of the same mind. Out of my meagre 7 ship fleet, I think I have partly modified 2 of them, my Vulture (G3 PD and G3 weapons) and my FdL (G3 weapons). And I only did those when Horizons dropped just to see what Engineers was like. I do have a reason why I won't embrace Engineering post Beyond, is apart from the grind and timesink involved, I like a challenge. I only play either Solo or PG, I refuse to play Open anymore just to be someone's game content. And because I know I will only be coming up against NPC's, I want a challenge. I don't want some meta-built ship that will devastate all NPC's with a couple of clicks of the trigger. So I have handicapped myself, it is my skill against the Mistress's coding skill. The majority of NPC's aren't engineered and even the one's I have come across that are aren't impossible to kill. Let's just say I would rather have to rely on my piloting skills in getting the kill, rather than flying around in some pseudo-invincible ship. To me the latter would get boring very quickly as there is no challenge, no skill involved. If I did play in Open, maybe I would change my mind, but at present I am quite content playing the game my way.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

No.

 

[Schmack]

Alternatively just sign up with a stock sidey for DWE2, there are plenty of fuelrats tagging along.

No, no! Must stop. :x You're giving me ideas...

What's the jump range on a stock sidey? Seems I couldn't even get out of the system without upgrading.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Answer me this: Can you play the game in an non-engineered ship or are you prohibited from leaving the dock?

Never said engineering isn't a desirable requirement, but some here are saying you basically can't play or at least not worth playing, the game unless you have a fully engineered ship. Which is a load of Earth Excrement! All engineering has accomplished in the game is create a power war, a perceived requirement that unless you spend an exorbitant amount of time running around collecting mats, chasing down engineers you can't play the game. The only exclusion I can think of is PvP in Open, and they are such a small minority in the overall scheme of things it hardly matters. And the result, "Look at me, I have an uber Cutter, I can kill any ship I see, err as long as it is in my system cos it has a jump rank of 0.8LYs"

There have been players that have circumnavigated the galaxy in a stock standard Sidely, we all managed quite well before the introduction of Engineers but for some reason it has now become the ONLY focus to so many, who then complain about every aspect of the Engineers, including the grind.

Can't play. Bulletsponge AI drove me nuts. All that time wasted on grinding them down. Last fight I did, I rammed the opponent to death so I could get it finally over with after 15 mins or so.

 

[Schmack]

Thanks, and I am of the same mind. Out of my meagre 7 ship fleet, I think I have partly modified 2 of them, my Vulture (G3 PD and G3 weapons) and my FdL (G3 weapons). And I only did those when Horizons dropped just to see what Engineers was like. I do have a reason why I won't embrace Engineering post Beyond, is apart from the grind and timesink involved, I like a challenge. I only play either Solo or PG, I refuse to play Open anymore just to be someone's game content. And because I know I will only be coming up against NPC's, I want a challenge. I don't want some meta-built ship that will devastate all NPC's with a couple of clicks of the trigger. So I have handicapped myself, it is my skill against the Mistress's coding skill. The majority of NPC's aren't engineered and even the one's I have come across that are aren't impossible to kill. Let's just say I would rather have to rely on my piloting skills in getting the kill, rather than flying around in some pseudo-invincible ship. To me the latter would get boring very quickly as there is no challenge, no skill involved. If I did play in Open, maybe I would change my mind, but at present I am quite content playing the game my way.

But 20%? That's a bit extreme. Most would do it for 10%. The bubble would be empty at 20.

 

[dognosh]

I guess not transferable after a rebuy ? No, I won't.
Transferable after a rebuy ? No, I won't.
Will I play less in open ? Yes, as the griefers & so called PvPers(who mostly are PvGers or seal clubbers) will have a field day on their improved ships.

Should FD implement something like this ? NO

 

[Schmack]

Can't play. Bulletsponge AI drove me nuts. All that time wasted on grinding them down. Last fight I did, I rammed the opponent to death so I could get it finally over with after 15 mins or so.

Because it's an NPC you have no sense of accomplishment that isn't time based. With PvP you'd only want to win, probably not try to hurry up so you could move on.