Repeat the same Guardian unlock 18 times? Really?

Here is the thing though, and it's what Sandro gets wrong every time: PP and CQC aren't popular BECAUSE they have been implemented so terribly. It's not that people don't want to do them both, they just don't want to play them as the broken messes they are now.

If Frontier bothered to fix and improve them both then they would get used. Same with Multicrew. And now wing missions to a degree. And now Tech Brokers.

Thing is, that's what we are saying again and again for years now. I was actually quite excited when I heard about the idea behind PP - awesome, a grand strategy layer. But it's purest grind gameplay with terrible timers that any other game only uses to sell you speedups. Obviously, someone at FD thought this is great gameplay on its own - or game "play" in the first place. Also the mechanics were terribly broken and prone to sabotage (5c), don't know if they managed to fix that.
The original PP trailer even falsely implies that there are or will be PP missions. There aren't.

It's such a shame, if you think how nice it would be if PP, BGS mission, and naval ranks were merged in one coherent system of ship progression and reputation+influence gain. This could be iterated further with a dedicated "home system" mechanic and affiliation with minor factions.

I don't know. We all blame the designers constantly. But maybe it's the devs that messed up when the build the underlying systems in a way that they cannot be merged easily.

Sometimes ED reminds me of the early www when coders were webdesigners. Glorious myspace times.
 
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PP, for instance, is the concept that made me finaly buy ED. In my case at least.
"Wow", I had thought. "This game actually starts to gain depth. Of course it have to, given that width is already about it's maximum".

But it came out . Same as multicrew and CQC.
Fdev should accept an idea, at least for a moment, that may be it is because those features are trash in the current state
is why no one plays them. Not because concepts itself are bad.

For example, PP is an inert time sink with weekly spans. Good job.

CQC is a standalone session multiplayer game in space, which is torn apart from in-game progress. Making stats separated from you gear killed PvP in WoW.

MC is a wonderful way to get time involved parameter multiplied by amount of participants. Which is about the only difficulty vector of which existance developers are aware.

"We have an amazing player community," Frontier CEO David Braben said in a statement. "The average play time among our 1.4 million players is 60 hours--that's a massive 84 million player hours and counting."

Player hours. We are on a plantation as unintelligent slave workers.
Fun we get while we play this game is not of concern.



My concerns about Fdev rise each day. About only thing that still keeps me playing is that I want to see how will that "criminal gameplay" look like.

To be precise, I belive that the fact that ED have no subscription will ultimately bring it to its doom.


Polishing features which are already in the game is not economically efficient. About every single player which would get to the point of being ready to actualy use those features would be way beyond moneyback treshold.
And by Murphy laws, polish takes at least triple as much time as pushing out underdeveloped concepts.
So it is way more efficient to slap some of stuff such as PP or MC before release of a paid season pass.
It's in teh gaem!11 Time gaps made gigantic instead of such polish are enough.
Sales of cosmetics are pretty random and are single time non-refundable payments.

So now I am just waiting to prove my fears about developer's motivations and intents.
I don't want to say that developers are such a-holes, it is just how psychology works on arranging priorities.

By the way, me playing currently is a bit overstatement. Because of some grandfathering balance decisions, I can't bring myself to open this game for a week already.
 
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Here is the thing though, and it's what Sandro gets wrong every time: PP and CQC aren't popular BECAUSE they have been implemented so terribly. It's not that people don't want to do them both, they just don't want to play them as the broken messes they are now.

If Frontier bothered to fix and improve them both then they would get used. Same with Multicrew. And now wing missions to a degree. And now Tech Brokers.

I agree. In was really looking forward to Powerplay and all we got was some spreadsheets and two copied mechanics.
 
I actually had fun in CQC but as it is "different" game I haven't played it too much.

When I start ED, I don't feel like exiting and starting "other" game, I wish it was just incorporated into main game somehow.
CQC was really fun as far as I remember as it was long time ago that I've played.
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
I have removed offending posts, along with cleaning up all the offtopic replies.

Now please be nice or have a break from the forums.

Thanks.

(Also, before anyone replies to this and as a precaution - a gentle reminder that we don't allow to discuss moderator actions publicly. If you have any concerns, please PM Brett C.)
 

Rafe Zetter

Banned
WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND. I want to use those tools too.

But I will not do something that I find boring and unenjoyable to get those tools it is that simple.

This is what I have been saying from the start and people can't seem to understand this for some reason.

Edited for accuracy - I got my facts wrong in the heat of the moments - Max called me out - I checked - he was right I was wrong.

I agree the games are for entertainment, but I disagree that you should feel the need to be lead around with a carrot dangling in front of you to feel entertained.

Carrots are not the mechanic to "make you feel entertained", they are the lure to lead you to the entertainment that makes you feel entertained - fundamentally different.

Carrots on sticks is how you tell a story - plot clues and twists lead to the next bit. In case you hadn't noticed every story ever told, since rock paintings on walls, via whatever medium was used - uses the same basic principle "a beginning" - "a middle" and "an end". And each section uses a "carrot" to lead you to the next bit, by the nose, revealing only just enough to make you want to continue. It's called "adding the element of suspense" and is a basic Storytelling #101 rule, and you've been happily engaging in that particular mechanic your entire life.

Even open world games like Morrowind or Eve Online still have a central story running through it's centre, a core that binds everything else together, something to add flavor to "why you are here". Technically even the first Elite had that, because it came with a novella "The Dark Wheel" (I still have mine) that set up who you were, and why you were there. It was the seed from which the imagination grew. But it was still a carrot.

Every game needs carrots - to give a player incentive to play.

Anytime you've looked at a game and thought "hey that looks like fun, I'll buy that" - it's a carrot.

You've been walking, swimming, running, crawling and flying (presumably) through life with a carrot in front of you since the day you were born - so has everyone else.

I digress.


ED is not a level/progression based game. Its all about choices. Your goals are your own, you decide what they are. You want the guardian modules, that is a choice you make.

Sort of - except that the guardian modules specifically are there to make your fight against Thargoid easier. Just like shoes (see my other post). I assume you have shoes yes? You might even have several pairs, and a coat or several coats - for different weather; and specific work attire, and play attire and sports attire, and swimming attire, and some form of transport, be it a bike, or a car or an aeroplane (in case you're Alaskan). You don't even NEED money, it just helps.

YOU don't NEED any of those things either.

They make for a better life experience - don't you agree?

They would like to use them, for thier own reasons, and are asking that the process to get them not be quite such a PITA - is that really too much to ask?

Do I want those modules. Yes. Do I need them to play any aspect of the the game. No.

Shoes, and the rest. (again).

I will not put myself through a whole heap of rubbish, boring grind and be unentertained to get something I don't need (and nobody needs them).

I will wait until they do something better.

How else can I say this to get you to understand my thinking on this.

Edited: new answer - you could try not to be so dismissive of the issue, and stop saying that people don't need it to play - technically you are correct, but the situation remains that the implementation sucks and that's why people are complaining about it.

Telling them "they don't need to put themselves through that" isn't helping the greater issue, which is to get the mechanic changed so it's less repetitive and dull.
 
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http://steamcharts.com/app/443080

I don't know what you're on about. There's literally ONE person playing right now and a peak of 3 in the last 24 hours. It's amazingly popular which is why FDev aren't working on it. What we need to do is get less people playing it then apparently, FDev will fix it (even though Sandro himself stated that if MC wasn't used it would get developed NO FURTHER!)

Isn't it funny how selective memory helps to try and make arguments not have so many holes in them? ;)

That are the players who launch Arena from the launcher, not people who just launch elite and then do a bit of CQC.
 

Rafe Zetter

Banned
I have removed offending posts, along with cleaning up all the offtopic replies.

Now please be nice or have a break from the forums.

Thanks.

(Also, before anyone replies to this and as a precaution - a gentle reminder that we don't allow to discuss moderator actions publicly. If you have any concerns, please PM Brett C.)

haha sure thing boss - and this is me being nice :).
 

Rafe Zetter

Banned
Sweet Jesus, you people are dumb today. I am not saying that regarding the guardian ruins. I am saying don't do them at all.

Engineered modules are better then them and far easier to get. Hence the reason why I won't bother.

I would like them, but I choose to so something more worthwhile and fun in my gaming time for something I don't need.

Shoes. again.

You have more than one pair of shoes, some are better than others - you can wear work shoes to go swimming if you wan't - but flippers work better.

You can also wear flippers to go running, but trainers work better.

You can wear trainers and have no problems in most cases. Light, comfy, don't rub your heels like others might - not much good on a construction site but otherwise trainers are a good "all rounder" footwear.

But people still like to wear leather shoes, flipflops, slingbacks, high heels, you get the idea.

Max, I've been trying and trying and trying to get you to understand the "they are not the most efficient option arguement" that you keep harping on about IS NOT THE REASON PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING. The efficiancy or otherwise of the weapons is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT, to this particular discussion.

Why do you insist on telling people that they have no right to complain because they want to have the different experience the guardian weapons gives them, and are not happy with the tasks they have to do to get them?

just like shoes. (again).
 
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Jex =TE=

Banned
That are the players who launch Arena from the launcher, not people who just launch elite and then do a bit of CQC.

ok and?

Edit: Actually, I really need to add more because this is simply ridiculous.

Are you saying that Steam is only showing a tiny amount of people and everyone else, the thoudands of other players are using other methods?

Reality would say that yes, there are other players - let's count them up - we'll add 6 more to it which makes 9 - why did you reply? Are you actually trying to argue that 9 players makes it really well played and liked?
 
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Be cool to have new stuff that people don’t want to largely ignore. I get that one doesn’t have to do the new content but surely a player should want to have a go? Otherwise...
 
No it isn't. You've been doing it and saying that your experience was "fine", that you were "fine" with it.

You've been saying that this grind was self inflicted to all those not enjoying it, (and that you were "fine" with it)

Repeatedly. If you deny it, I'll drag out every instance of it and quote you to yourself.




Carrots are not the mechanic to "make you feel entertained", they are the lure to lead you to the entertainment that makes you feel entertained - fundamentally different.

Carrots on sticks is how you tell a story - plot clues and twists lead to the next bit. In case you hadn't noticed every story ever told, since rock paintings on walls, via whatever medium was used - uses the same basic principle "a beginning" - "a middle" and "an end". And each section uses a "carrot" to lead you to the next bit, by the nose, revealing only just enough to make you want to continue. It's called "adding the element of suspense" and is a basic Storytelling #101 rule, and you've been happily engaging in that particular mechanic your entire life.

Even open world games like Morrowind or Eve Online still have a central story running through it's centre, a core that binds everything else together, something to add flavor to "why you are here". Technically even the first Elite had that, because it came with a novella "The Dark Wheel" (I still have mine) that set up who you were, and why you were there. It was the seed from which the imagination grew. But it was still a carrot.

Every game needs carrots - to give a player incentive to play.

Anytime you've looked at a game and thought "hey that looks like fun, I'll buy that" - it's a carrot.

You've been walking, swimming, running, crawling and flying (presumably) through life with a carrot in front of you since the day you were born - so has everyone else.

I digress.




Sort of - except that the guardian modules specifically are there to make your fight against Thargoid easier. Just like shoes (see my other post). I assume you have shoes yes? You might even have several pairs, and a coat or several coats - for different weather; and specific work attire, and play attire and sports attire, and swimming attire, and some form of transport, be it a bike, or a car or an aeroplane (in case you're Alaskan). You don't even NEED money, it just helps.

YOU don't NEED any of those things either.

You've been telling people to essentially go live off grid, make your own power, hunt your own food, and do without all "mod cons" - while happily sitting there, in whatever abode you happen to be in, with power and water and food and shoes and clothes and enjoying all "mod cons".

They make for a better life experience - don't you agree?

So put your money and lifestyle where your mouth is or stop telling people "you don't need X". The principle is the same.

They would like to use them, for thier own reasons, and are asking that the process to get them not be quite such a PITA - is that really too much to ask?



Shoes, and the rest. (again).



If you won't do it - why have you been saying that you've been doing it and are "fine with it"? One of you is telling the truth, the other of you is lying.

You've already made what you think about this very clear Max - you're now backpeddalling as fast as your can - unfortunately for you, this is the internet and your previous comments are there for everyone to see.

Even if you delete them, because you can't delete posts where what you have said is quoted, and the quoted original text remains after deletion.

You've made it clear you've been doing it - are "fine" with it, think everyone else complaining about it are "self inflicted players who have no right to complain" and basically defending pretty much every aspect of it.

And now you backed yourself into a corner and quite a few other forum members besides me have called you out on it, are now tryign to pretend you've been agreeing with them all along.

time's up boyo, you need to get out of the "big boys" pool before you drown.

WHAT are you talking about. I have not gone near the guardian ruins personal narrative grind. And have never said I have.

The only.person who us lying is yourself.
 
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ok and?

Edit: Actually, I really need to add more because this is simply ridiculous.

Are you saying that Steam is only showing a tiny amount of people and everyone else, the thoudands of other players are using other methods?

Reality would say that yes, there are other players - let's count them up - we'll add 6 more to it which makes 9 - why did you reply? Are you actually trying to argue that 9 players makes it really well played and liked?

If I wanted to play CQC I'd very likely start it from ED. I wouldn't install a separate launcher. I find it likely that the majority of players would do so alike.
 

Rafe Zetter

Banned
Engineers. They were changed because people were not engaging with it and it being a component.

it got changed because we told them, repeatedly, that the engineers as was, was causing very real problems, with the god rolls only being a small part of it. I'm certain your advocacy of "don't do it" would have had no bearing, and would have actually made it worse, because those that did would have then had an even greater advantage. even withotu god rolls.

CQC isn't even part of the game and powerplay is something that they want to change when they have the chance. They see that it has issues. But they obviously have other priorities in regards to Powerplay. Not touching powerplay ios not going to cause anyone any issues as it is a separate layer on top of the rest of the game.

CQC not being an integral part of the game is irrelevent, it's part of the ED experience, they wasted well over 6 months and more of dev time to implement it to bring the consolers in the the ED franchise. It backfired, spectacularly. We might have planetary landings by now if they hadn't made CqC.

The guardian / thargoid narrative though is something I would expect them to want us to engage in.

If we are not it means they have made a mistake and hopefully change it.

But carry on grinding if that is what you want to do.***
Sounds like lunacy to me.

I'd bloody well like to think that ALL OF ED's content was made with the view that FDev wan't us to engage in it. I mean - seriously, what a daft statement to make.
Are you suggesting that FDev have been developing some parts with "ooh they are gonna love this!" and others, "meh - take it, leave it we don't care".

Although the latter seems to be more and more what people are feeling - and you yourself are even advocating!

edited for niceness - sorry Max.
 
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If people complained they could not reach combat elite in 24 hours and complained about the grind would you defend there viewpoint?

Personally I don't think spending a few hours to unlock a new Guardian device is that bad, you only have to unlock it once. I think some people just want better game play for their Guardian devices to make it more fun, while others want a press button to unlock new item.
 
If people complained they could not reach combat elite in 24 hours and complained about the grind would you defend there viewpoint?

Personally I don't think spending a few hours to unlock a new Guardian device is that bad, you only have to unlock it once. I think some people just want better game play for their Guardian devices to make it more fun, while others want a press button to unlock new item.

I don't think there are many who ask for a Press Button solution.
Having to go through a single mechanism 54 times to obtain some new stuff in the game is a horrible and lazy game design, having to do those 54 repetitions only once doesn't make it less bad imho.
 
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