Modes These arguments are tedious.

[GoStu]

Everyone bought PowerPlay - not just those who enjoy direct PvP - and it was consciously implemented in all three game modes.

You really need to stop making this argument. Frontier has "consciously implemented" a lot of things one way, and has since recognized them as mistakes, and changed them. Just the history of Powerplay from 1.3 to 3.0 has had the following changes/discoveries:

• Consolidation was added as a mechanic to counteract people deliberately Preparing terrible loss-making systems. This behavior was unforseen at 1.3 and has since been (partially) addressed.
• The practice of placing Expansions into enemy space to deliberately contest CC was unforeseen.
• The practice of only redeeming Undermining vouchers (known as sniping) was unforeseen.

Your argument assumes that Frontier is infallible and never makes mistakes in game design. As a long, long list of patch notes could attest, this is definitely not the case. Either come up with some justification to keep Solo/Private Powerplay that isn't "it was deliberately done that way in 1.3".

 

[Curvemn17]

Indeed, I would agree- except that Solo also provides a way for people that have no choice in connecting with substandard internet connections to still play the game. Not everyone has fiber optic or decent broadband, after all. If they paid for the game, they've a right to play just as much as anyone else- and it's not their fault FD made it online-connected for DRM purposes (or BGS, or whatever).

Personally I'd see them having only Open with optional PvP flagging to be the most logical choice, but that has about as much chance as FD removing the modes and throwing everyone into Open forced non-consensual PvP. (like trying to blot out the Sun by throwing a snowball)

A flag system defeats the purpose. Those asking for solo/pg activities to not impact the BGS or have a limit are not your typical PvP I just want slaughter everything group. They actively want that engagement to hopefully head off an attack on their systems BGS or their power they support. It’s not asking for victims. And if you see that person but they have that flag so you can’t stop their activity then how does this change the current argument or fix it?

Simple it doesn’t.

 

[Sylveria]

A flag system defeats the purpose. Those asking for solo/pg activities to not impact the BGS or have a limit are not your typical PvP I just want slaughter everything group. They actively want that engagement to hopefully head off an attack on their systems BGS or their power they support. It’s not asking for victims. And if you see that person but they have that flag so you can’t stop their activity then how does this change the current argument or fix it?

Simple it doesn’t.

Except that's only relevant if you're thinking of the BGS as a DIRECT PvP system, which it isn't. (BACKGROUND Simulation... not DIRECT)

The BGS can be countered by using the BGS in similar fashion. Again, we circle right back around to the fallacy that you've gotta be able to shoot someone in the face to counter them.

 

[wrmiller]

How about we just eliminate the BGS entirely, or make it driven by RNG and NOT affected by player actions at all.

Then maybe all these silly threads will go away?

 

[Sylveria]

How about we just eliminate the BGS entirely, or make it driven by RNG and NOT affected by player actions at all.

Then maybe all these silly threads will go away?

Personally I totally agree with this, but then again I didn't buy Elite for the BGS. I bought it because I loved the previous iterations and space simulation.

If I had my way, I'd remove the BGS- make PowerPlay the "opt in" flagging system for PvP, and be done with it. Wanna participate in PvP? Choose a faction- go to town. Others aren't pledged? Oh well, guess they're not available as a "target".

 

[Curvemn17]

Except that's only relevant if you're thinking of the BGS as a DIRECT PvP system, which it isn't. (BACKGROUND Simulation... not DIRECT)

The BGS can be countered by using the BGS in similar fashion. Again, we circle right back around to the fallacy that you've gotta be able to shoot someone in the face to counter them.

So that brings us right back to where we are as I said.it becomes a game of who can move more cargo or kill more helpless NPCs. It’s a numbers game at that point. With 0 interaction. So again why have a flag system to begin with? You’re supporting my argument.

I don’t think I suggested you have to be able to shoot someone to counter them but it should be an option. One of many options.

 

[wrmiller]

Easier to simply remove the ability to shoot, ram, or otherwise damage another player. Since all the complaints seem to come from peeveepeers...

You may have a point Sir.

PvP flag anyone?

(I'll see myself out...)

 

[Sylveria]

So that brings us right back to where we are as I said.it becomes a game of who can move more cargo or kill more helpless NPCs. It’s a numbers game at that point. With 0 interaction. So again why have a flag system to begin with? You’re supporting my argument.

I don’t think I suggested you have to be able to shoot someone to counter them but it should be an option. One of many options.

Having a PvP flagging system would alleviate the need for having separated modes- not for affecting the BGS. Two completely different mechanics.

The ONLY reason one would suggest having direct ability against players utilizing the BGS is to engage them directly in combat, period. Although you seem to think what I said "supports your argument" it really doesn't- because we're talking about two different things.

 

[QBit4D]

People do PP in all modes, their reasons are not knowable unless they specifically state them. PP is only a PvE token mechanic, some have suggested adding a PvP mechanic for those that want it. Every player regardless of mode was promised the ability to affect the shared universe. If you want to take that away you had better be ready to refund peoples purchase.
Every player is simply a cog in the universe, grist for the machine as it were. Everyones actions affect everyone else.

Currently PvP is just an optional activity for those who want to engage in it. This is not a PvP centered game. What some of us want (not that we would engage in it) is to add something to the game to make PvP have weight for those that want to engage and at the same time not remove game play from those that do not want it.

Nobody wants to take your private grind away from you. Do as many merits as you want in your private gardens and get your bonuses and what not.

Just don't screw with the game of those who want to compete against each other. Who want to be able to try and smash that one annoying cog. Only if that's possible are we part of the SAME machine.

 

[Sylveria]

Nobody wants to take your private grind away from you. Do as many merits as you want in your private gardens and get your bonuses and what not.

Just don't screw with the game of those who want to compete against each other. Who want to be able to try and smash that one annoying cog. Only if that's possible are we part of the SAME machine.

Kinda like PvPer's "screw with the game" of those who wish to engage in PvE content?

Not quite the direction you'd hoped to go with this, is it?

 

[withnail]

Private group for that. It's just easier so shouldn't reflect on the success of your power.

You can have the merits though. Go for it, sounds boring though.

 

[wrmiller]

Personally I totally agree with this, but then again I didn't buy Elite for the BGS. I bought it because I loved the previous iterations and space simulation.

If I had my way, I'd remove the BGS- make PowerPlay the "opt in" flagging system for PvP, and be done with it. Wanna participate in PvP? Choose a faction- go to town. Others aren't pledged? Oh well, guess they're not available as a "target".

Just came back and re-read this. And off the top of my head, I'd say that this is probably one of the best suggestions yet.

I'd have to seriously consider buying a game like that, even though I'm not a fan of current MMOs. Well done.

 

[Curvemn17]

Having a PvP flagging system would alleviate the need for having separated modes- not for affecting the BGS. Two completely different mechanics.

The ONLY reason one would suggest having direct ability against players utilizing the BGS is to engage them directly in combat, period. Although you seem to think what I said "supports your argument" it really doesn't- because we're talking about two different things.

Uh so having a flag system you just turn the flag on directly impact the BGS while giving the group you’re working against the finger, this differs from PG/solo how? Hence supports my argument that a flag system is pointless. All you are saying is you want to have that on fly safely in open without any issues so you can visibly frustrate the group you are attacking with your indirect pvp mode instead of doing it in your pg/solo mode. Again, you support my argument that it changes nothing and is a pointless suggestion.

BGS and PP should not be who can move more from a to b or farm more helpless NPCs.

As to your argument that pvpers screw with others games, are you suggesting people play the way they want to play the game?

 

[Curvemn17]

Just came back and re-read this. And off the top of my head, I'd say that this is probably one of the best suggestions yet.

I'd have to seriously consider buying a game like that, even though I'm not a fan of current MMOs. Well done.

Without the BGS and the large groups that play this you would have a massive drop out rate from this game.

 

[Sylveria]

Uh so having a flag system you just turn the flag on directly impact the BGS while giving the group you’re working against the finger, this differs from PG/solo how? Hence supports my argument that a flag system is pointless. All you are saying is you want to have that on fly safely in open without any issues so you can visibly frustrate the group you are attacking with your indirect pvp mode instead of doing it in your pg/solo mode. Again, you support my argument that it changes nothing and is a pointless suggestion.

BGS and PP should not be who can move more from a to b or farm more helpless NPCs.

As to your argument that pvpers screw with others games, are you suggesting people play the way they want to play the game?

BGS is affected by all players. There's no choice involved. PP is a different ball of wax (which is why I've suggested they use it as the flagging system)

Yes, I'm suggesting people be allowed to play the way they want to play the game- provided EVERYONE has the same choice, not just those who wish to engage in combat with other players.

You do your thing, I'll do mine. Sounds absolutely wonderful to me.

Without the BGS and the large groups that play this you would have a massive drop out rate from this game.

Citation needed.

 

[GoStu]

Just came back and re-read this. And off the top of my head, I'd say that this is probably one of the best suggestions yet.

I'd have to seriously consider buying a game like that, even though I'm not a fan of current MMOs. Well done.

It's halfway there already. Power-on-Power violence doesn't provoke police response or increase your Notoriety or anything. A player from one Power can hang out in hostile power space & pick off CMDRs; the only recourse is that they get a bounty that applies to that Power's space. It doesn't deny them station services or docking, and is just a reward for the attacked power's CMDRs if they take down the murderer.

Example: I'm pledged to Zachary Hudson at the moment. I can go to Arissa Lavigny-Duval's space and attack ALD's CMDRs or NPCs and only receive an "Arissa Lavigny-Duval" bounty. I can dock at any station and use all the services, Police/ATR don't respond, and my Notoriety doesn't increase. ALD pilots can collect the bounty on my head, though.

 

[Curvemn17]

Whatttt?

First off, I play in all modes (except cqc so far). You seem to be triggerd for some reason. What problem do you have with adding some kind of PvP mechanism to PP/PNF/BGS?

Here is the thing, if you try to remove PP/PNFs from Solo (since PGs are often built around PNFs you cant remove it from them) you are removing game play, You are in fact scr***ng with other peoples game.

But its ok if you do it right?

You’re right let’s not screw with it. Bots/5c/active groups targeting other groups systems from the safety of their solo mode and private group is operating as intended and a perfect mechanic that all can support. Why defend? Heck let’s all just fly off into the great expanse and dance in srvs on planets while we all take pictures for our screen savers.

 

[Sylveria]

Just came back and re-read this. And off the top of my head, I'd say that this is probably one of the best suggestions yet.

I'd have to seriously consider buying a game like that, even though I'm not a fan of current MMOs. Well done.

It really would alleviate the vast majority of arguments with ED and the modes. And it can be done without rewriting the entire game... the "hollow box" fallacy in which people claim there's no way to incorporate mechanics in the existing code is exactly that- a fallacy. It's been demonstrated with the Wings system code that they can alter the ability to damage other players, so the code exists.

All they'd need to do is tweak it so that the PP flag on/off turns off damage to other players. It CAN be done.

 

[Curvemn17]

BGS is affected by all players. There's no choice involved. PP is a different ball of wax (which is why I've suggested they use it as the flagging system)

Yes, I'm suggesting people be allowed to play the way they want to play the game- provided EVERYONE has the same choice, not just those who wish to engage in combat with other players.

You do your thing, I'll do mine. Sounds absolutely wonderful to me.



Citation needed.

It’s actually not a different ball of wax and shoes either you don’t Pp or your lack of understanding. PP is more heavily involved in BGS work than I’d say actual PP moves these days like UM. BGS directly impacts everyone. Hence, the you play your way let me do my thing is a crutch you lean on because you have nothing to substantiate your argument. PvP people could say well my way to play the game is to kill anything that moves. Are you suggesting they can’t play their way? It’s a circular argument, one which is not really the entire discussion.

The discussion is you can do your thing, but this shouldn’t impact EVERYONE unless we can have a direct way to counter you. You cannot directly counter someone unless they are in open.

As for citation, the number of pending PMF submissions currently coupled with those in game and the number of people that support those is all I need as citation. Case in point the large size of the group Davinci, do I need any more citation that that? How about the federal democratic command? They have issues with their PMF and it may force almost 200 some cmdrs out of the game.

Please let’s use cognitive reasoning

 

[wrmiller]

Citation needed.

I'd like to see this as well.

Virtual rep'd++

EDIT: After reading a post above, I'm starting to think that getting rid of the BGS might be a good thing, as all those complaining about the current BGS implementation would then leave? Maybe? It might be something to hope for.