Why are we still arguing about open v solo, ganking, griefing, etc.?

[Tarman]

Do you think anything and everything should be allowable in an RP sense because it's a fantasy environment (or "video game") then?

R@pe, torture? Nothing should ever be considered "taboo" because it's in the context of a fantasy environment?

If not, why? I mean, depriving someone else of life and liberty is so "lulz-worthy" in the context of this video game, after all.

Fighting to defend and for survival is indeed one thing- but simply blowing players ships away just because it's laugh-worthy is another.

I'm not an extremist- I'm using extreme examples to point out that actions affecting others doesn't simply "disappear" within the context of a video game or because you don some sort of fantasy mask for RP purposes.

You don't have to be an extremist for your examples to fall off the mark by being extremist. It does make you look ranty though, I'd suggest using more relevant examples.

Your number one example isn't likely to get into a game in the first place. No game company could or would really "gamify" that, so to speak, even if it weren't likely illegal. You see it in passive entertainment stories a fair bit tho. Does that mean Game of Thrones is promoting IRL evil because of all the horrid characters in that show? What is it, in the early seasons a dude pushes a kid out of a window so he can keep his brother-sister hookup a secret. IDT the kid actor hates the adult actor for that though, because it's a story. A super grim story full of awful things, but still. If everyone was nice in their world there wouldn't have been a show.

There's actually a seriously brutal torture bit in GTA5 that was super uncomfortable to play through. It was a step back from the over-the-top cartoon violence of the rest of the series, and over into "hey, actual violence used for political purposes is one of the worst forms of violence out there" point-making. Even the character who does the torture felt terrible even though he's totally violently nuts, and helped the dude escape the country to avoid any more of it. It made torture look like exactly what it is, pretty terrible stuff to actually do to someone. I'd say the underlying societal commentary in the 3-D GTA series highlights how silly most of the violence in that game really is, and how taking it all too seriously or blindly is also kind of silly, like that guy who called it a murder simulator.

Then we have Elite which has had slavery being a career path since day one. In original Elite you could let your passengers DIE because you intentionally stuck them in an airless hold, and then you could sell them for Fertilizer. Does that mean David Braben condones real slavery and kidnapping, murder and quasi-cannibalism or is it just a representation of his dystopic future full of soulless galactic megacorporations and political warlords and authoritarian lawbringers?

 

[Vedmo]

Multiplayer games are a social setting. In social settings, what you do affects others- like it or not. That's the difference.

Want to RP to your heart's content without others "labeling" you for your actions? Choose Solo- which is not a social setting.

Implying others may be "sick" because what you do has an effect on them is akin to quite a few psychological disorders, FYI.

I didn't imply people are sick because others action affect them. The part I find sick is rationalizing away a dislike for others playing a game as intended by attributing real life mental disorders to them. If you showed up to a tackle football game expecting to play flag football, would accuse the other players of senseless physical assault when they tackled you?

So far as the limits of RP in a fantasy game, in this case that is entirely up to the owner of the game. If you have questions about what is allowable, or think someone is crossing a line, Frontier sets the limits and has the power to create consequences for those who don't follow them.

 

[Brrokk]

What is absolutely hilarious is that some people are so emotionally attached to pixels that their world goes into a melt down if they get killed. Blaming anyone other than themselves for their crappy loadout/skill level because they should be allowed to get a participation award for everything. ...

Wait, I might have missed something. Did anything like that happen in this thread?

 

[Tarman]

Wait, I might have missed something. Did anything like that happen in this thread?

It's certainly happened in some of these threads; it's my whole warning about using Real Ego in Pretend Worlds. They're all starting to blend together though. I'll just post again about the time I saw someone who got gunned down, threaten to actually go to the player's house and bludgeon them to death with a blunt object for it. They were irrationally angry at it; wasn't even a repeat but just a single occurrence. That's a bit too SRS BSNS for my tastes.

If I'm going to worry about anyone's motivations or actions, then condoning violent murder for video game setbacks might be one of those times.

 

[Brrokk]

It's certainly happened in some of these threads; it's my whole warning about using Real Ego in Pretend Worlds. They're all starting to blend together though. I'll just post again about the time I saw someone who got gunned down, threaten to actually go to the player's house and bludgeon them to death with a blunt object for it. They were irrationally angry at it; wasn't even a repeat but just a single occurrence. That's a bit too SRS BSNS for my tastes.

If I'm going to worry about anyone's motivations or actions, then condoning violent murder for video game setbacks might be one of those times.

Weeeell... threatening with a blunt object would definitely be behaviour I'd get judgemental about too.

 

[Stigbob]

A more RL example is a restaurant. If you want to know what someone is really like, watch how he/she treats waiters and waitresses. This is a particular situation where social pressure doesn't force me to be polite or kind, so I'm only polite to them if it's in my nature to be so.

It amazes me that some people are rude to waiting staff before their food arrives, it's like they don't know what always happens in the kitchen to rude customer food. Other than that I agree completely.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

Wait, I might have missed something. Did anything like that happen in this thread?

I decided to reply to your post with an overblown generalization that matches the tone of the "griefers are bad people in real life" schtick. While the statement I made may be true for some people they would be an extreme minority.

 

[OrwellianChaos]

Awww, it’s amazing how many armchair psychologists there are in this game!
I PvP in game, so IRL, I must be a psychopath or sociopath right?
I saw someone earlier in the thread use how you treat wait staff at restaurants as a metric on your mental stability. I treat every waiter/waitress/bartender with respect and tip pretty well (at least I think I do)... but, I also pull and fight any combat equipt ships I see in a space ship game... so... where do I fall on some of your mental stability charts?
I rarely pull anyone lower than master in combat, unless they’re flying one of the big 3 (combat equipt).
I give advice when the pull-ee isn’t salty.
I almost always give a gg.

Seems to me, these threads are more about people whining that they don’t want to put in the slightest amount of effort to make sure their ships are capable enough to survive and/or fight back in a PvP combat situation.
I get that there are people who don’t want to or can’t PvP, but everyone can make a ship capable of surviving these encounters.
The “grind” to unlock engineers requires the same amount of effort as most trade routes. For the most part, mat collection can be done casually, and G5 mods aren’t required for ship survivability, hell, a decent enough pilot can survive in a stock ship (que Rinzler’s Git Gud Guide to Trading in Open).

 

[Stigbob]

Awww, it’s amazing how many armchair psychologists there are in this game!
I PvP in game, so IRL, I must be a psychopath or sociopath right?
I saw someone earlier in the thread use how you treat wait staff at restaurants as a metric on your mental stability. I treat every waiter/waitress/bartender with respect and tip pretty well (at least I think I do)... but, I also pull and fight any combat equipt ships I see in a space ship game... so... where do I fall on some of your mental stability charts?
I rarely pull anyone lower than master in combat, unless they’re flying one of the big 3 (combat equipt).
I give advice when the pull-ee isn’t salty.
I almost always give a gg.

Seems to me, these threads are more about people whining that they don’t want to put in the slightest amount of effort to make sure their ships are capable enough to survive and/or fight back in a PvP combat situation.
I get that there are people who don’t want to or can’t PvP, but everyone can make a ship capable of surviving these encounters.
The “grind” to unlock engineers requires the same amount of effort as most trade routes. For the most part, mat collection can be done casually, and G5 mods aren’t required for ship survivability, hell, a decent enough pilot can survive in a stock ship (que Rinzler’s Git Gud Guide to Trading in Open).

It's a lot simpler than that, anyone who actually enjoys spoiling someone else's game is likely to be a bit of a Richard both in and out of video games. If they were nice people they wouldn't enjoy doing it, and therefore wouldn't do it.

Actual PVP has no bearing on it whatsoever, we're talking griefers/sealclubbers/gankers here.

 

[Sylveria]

Actual PVP has no bearing on it whatsoever, we're talking griefers/sealclubbers/gankers here.

I'd agree, except for the fact it seems the PvP community seems to welcome those with "Open" arms in terms of presenting agenda.

They certainly don't exclude them from their ranks, and if anything what I see is a lot of good-ole-boy backslapping.

Want to "prove" your case? Some simple denouncements might help.

 

[OrwellianChaos]

It's a lot simpler than that, anyone who actually enjoys spoiling someone else's game is likely to be a bit of a Richard both in and out of video games. If they were nice people they wouldn't enjoy doing it, and therefore wouldn't do it.

Actual PVP has no bearing on it whatsoever, we're talking griefers/sealclubbers/gankers here.

Honestly, the griefers/sealclubbers/gankers are the easiest to deal with. Get some hull, a decent (engineered) shield with a couple boosters, put achaff launcher and maybe an ECM on your ship, be slightly evasive and you’ll get away from them.
Most of them are gimbal/turret scrubs who can’t hit the broadside of a barn with fixed weapons.

 

[Stigbob]

Honestly, the griefers/sealclubbers/gankers are the easiest to deal with. Get some hull, a decent (engineered) shield with a couple boosters, put achaff launcher and maybe an ECM on your ship, be slightly evasive and you’ll get away from them.
Most of them are gimbal/turret scrubs who can’t hit the broadside of a barn with fixed weapons.

They don't bother me I was writing high wake escapology guides four years ago. Post engineering it's even easier, that's if you don't just block them as I do with all the station griefers I can find.

The reason I block them is because I don't like them and I'm choosy about who I play games with, anyone who tries to be a pain in the rear is fair game. There are no proper PVP'ers on my block list at all.

 

[jasonbirder]

Seems to me, these threads are more about people whining that they don’t want to put in the slightest amount of effort to make sure their ships are capable enough to survive and/or fight back in a PvP combat situation.

The only way to be reasonably assured of winning a high percentage of (unwelcome) PvP encounters would be to fly constantly in a Big 3/FDL engineered to G5 across the board with the appropriate special effects...

Which raises two points

1. You've reduced the ENTIRETY of the Elite Game & Universe to dueling in identical ships...because your PvP optimised ships isn't capable of trading/exploration/missions etc As it will have ALL internal modules devoted to Combat, low jump range, no cargo etc etc...
2. What kind of Universe ONLY has high spec military ships and NOTHING else - no traders, no couriers etc etc - doesn't sound like any sci-fi setting I am familiar with...

 

[OrwellianChaos]

The only way to be reasonably assured of winning a high percentage of (unwelcome) PvP encounters would be to fly constantly in a Big 3/FDL engineered to G5 across the board with the appropriate special effects...

Which raises two points

1. You've reduced the ENTIRETY of the Elite Game & Universe to dueling in identical ships...because your PvP optimised ships isn't capable of trading/exploration/missions etc As it will have ALL internal modules devoted to Combat, low jump range, no cargo etc etc...
2. What kind of Universe ONLY has high spec military ships and NOTHING else - no traders, no couriers etc etc - doesn't sound like any sci-fi setting I am familiar with...

I’m not talking about “winning,” it’s about being able to escape in most situations.
Most pvp ships aren’t capable of doing much other than combat anyway. You aren’t going to trade or explore in a FDL/FAS (you can, it just isn’t efficient).

 

[jasonbirder]

I’m not talking about “winning,” it’s about being able to escape in most situations.

That makes no sense at all...why would anyone enter an encounter they didn't have a reasonable chance of winning?

Most pvp ships aren’t capable of doing much other than combat anyway. You aren’t going to trade or explore in a FDL/FAS

My point entirely - by equipping yourself for Open you're locking AWAY all of Elites content...no trading, no exploration, no missions, no combat vs NPCs (PvP optimised ships with stacked defences and G5 engineering are invulnerable to NPCs) etc etc...you're only going to be able to duel with other near identical ships...

 

[OrwellianChaos]

That makes no sense at all...why would anyone enter an encounter they didn't have a reasonable chance of winning?



My point entirely - by equipping yourself for Open you're locking AWAY all of Elites content...no trading, no exploration, no missions, no combat vs NPCs (PvP optimised ships with stacked defences and G5 engineering are invulnerable to NPCs) etc etc...you're only going to be able to duel with other near identical ships...

I’m not referring to people who enter, knowingly, into PvP, I can’t tell if you’re being obtuse or we’re having a miscommunication. I’m talking about people who complain about being blown up by PvP ships in seconds, almost every ship has a chance to survive an “unwanted” PvP encounter. It seems to me like most of the people who complain either don’t want to learn from their mistakes or can’t be asked to put the least amount of effort into making their ship capable of surviving such an attack.

Equipping yourself for open doesn’t mean you have to have G5 everything. Maybe the shield, thrusters, and if you want to ensure your escape, your hull... aside from that, learning to submit to interdictions, evasive flying and high waking will get you out of most combat situations in open.

 

[Eliza]

Sorry, but I was following this thread and just found THIS on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p62Hq1-54VU

Yeah...we, in open, are all definitly nothing but "griefers" and "gankers".[yesnod]

 

[Sylveria]

I’m not referring to people who enter, knowingly, into PvP, I can’t tell if you’re being obtuse or we’re having a miscommunication. I’m talking about people who complain about being blown up by PvP ships in seconds, almost every ship has a chance to survive an “unwanted” PvP encounter. It seems to me like most of the people who complain either don’t want to learn from their mistakes or can’t be asked to put the least amount of effort into making their ship capable of surviving such an attack.

Equipping yourself for open doesn’t mean you have to have G5 everything. Maybe the shield, thrusters, and if you want to ensure your escape, your hull... aside from that, learning to submit to interdictions, evasive flying and high waking will get you out of most combat situations in open.

So why should PvE players be subjected to PvP-by-default as Open currently is?

"knowingly" is one thing... but there's no message nor indicator when a player chooses Open from the menu that they're subject to such is there?

IMO, FD needs to add a warning as such (at the very minimum), so that players choosing this option know, without a doubt- that they're making themselves available to others as "content".

 

[jasonbirder]

It seems to me like most of the people who complain either don’t want to learn from their mistakes or can’t be asked to put the least amount of effort into making their ship capable of surviving such an attack.

If I've knowingly put myself into a situation where I've invited attack by another player (IE Flown in Open) I want to be damn well certain I'll WIN that encounter...
I've no interest in giving some saddo PvP'er his jollies by running away so he can get his rocks off at how superior he is...

You wouldn't go Thargoid hunting without Guardian Weapons and shed loads of Hull points....You wouldn't go into PvP land without a G5'd FDL/Big 3 - otherwise all your doing is providing jollies for someone

 

[Delilah]

Sociopathy is a strong motivator, be it when deciding what and who other players are, or arguing about it on the forums.

Thank you.