Stars are too small

[[VR] Deggial]

They are proper size. Human minds fail to deal with sense of scale without any reference point.

Is it just me, or do you find it kinda weird that some people don't seem to understand that?

I don't know. People don't seem to question the connection between (visual) size and distance in this thread. I think, everybody gets this! You are perfectly right, Eagleboy, that having a reference point is key.

However, the fact stands that all the stars do appear to be quite similar sized in ED (due to the differently distanced drop-out points).
The refernece points granted by the game are somehow subtle: we have to look at the distance to the star and realize that we are so much further away than usual and the sun must be enormous. But thhis is a very "intellectual" experience and not very "visceral" and therefore emotional.
We also can experience the star's size when circumnavigating them in order to continue our voyage. A slowly creeping "next jump" target always manages to make me realize the sun's size. But again, this is not really "in the face" of the player, but somehow indirect.

All the (correct) explanations don't change it: There is no strong feeling of star-size in ED. And in the end, the feeling is all that matters in a game.
Instead of posting snarky videos and comments about size vs. distance, we could discuss how to deal with this.
If there is a solution at all. And honestly, I doubt it!

Placing the drop-out point at a constant distance to the star would lead to immense problems.
- Traveling times would increase tremendeously at large stars, as mentioned above. Increasing the SC speed would counter this. But as the travel time is a major aspect in our experience of size, this would actively counteract the goal of making stars feel bigger.
- As the star size does indeed vary largely, we would have to have a quite distant drop-out point in order to be able to travel to Beteigeuze and other giants. This would mean, on the other hand, that more "standard" stars would be mere tiny points at our arrival. This can't be the propper solution either.

So, unless somebody can come up with an idea that solves both issues, I am afraid we will have to deal with the visually equal stars and rely on the subtle hints the game already grants us.

 

[kofeyh]

Don't you think they already have broken the rule with our ship and our life would be dead if we jump as close as we do already do? Give us some basic visual size of a star. Not system map scale. It doesn't have to be much.

We don't jump very close. That's why stars are small. Take a coffee mug, out of the cupboard. Now put it on the footpath near your house. Now walk, maybe about 2km away (or about a mile). Does the cup look the same size? Can you even see it? Elite? Same thing.

Perspective and scale has zero meaning without context; the context in elite is that we're not all up in it's grill because our ships would be obliterated and how exciting is endless obliteration just to have a physically larger representation and ignoring like eleventy other physics rules being tossed out the window, to "embiggen the star!!!1".

lol.

 

[kofeyh]

So, unless somebody can come up with an idea that solves both issues, I am afraid we will have to deal with the visually equal stars and rely on the subtle hints the game already grants us.

If we jumped close enough that every star looked like Beetlejuice we're likely talking immediate immolation and or catastrophic loss of the ship because we'd surely be dumped within the massive magnetic and gravimetric death zone (ie the point at which stars inhale every conceivable stellar phenomena stupid enough to get that close). So in order for people to solve one 'presumed reality' that the star surely has to be eleventy times bigger, the developer has to literally ignore all the rest.

That and spending god knows how many hours (in game) transiting the sphere of influence before we even accelerate up. Never mind, that being even closer doesn't really mean anything without the context of a scale reference point because how big is big enough?

Frontier picked a scale that more or less gave us a sense of what's going on, without making it an arduous, hundred hour journey just to clear a single system, within billions of systems. They had to draw the line, somewhere.

 

[[VR] Deggial]

If we jumped close enough that every star looked like Beetlejuice we're talking immediate immolation and or catastrophic loss of the ship because we'd surely be dumped within the massive magnetic and gravimetric death zone. So in order for people to solve one 'presumed reality' the developer has to literally ignore all the rest. ...

While this is of course true as far as reality is concerned, I think we would be able to come up with a satisfying lore solution. (I am not even sure that our current drop distances would be even remotely save).

My two considerations mentioned above are more game-play related and harder to solve. You pick up one of them in your second part. However, I disagree: Notwithstanding all the other problems that would be involved, equally distanced drop-out points would grant at least a constant reference frame and therefore help us to experience the size differences in the stars if nothing else. (But not their absolute size, of course.)

 

[kofeyh]

While this is of course true as far as reality is concerned, I think we would be able to come up with a satisfying lore solution.

It's the forums? So i highly doubt it. Lore is typically used to justify why reality is folded in half because that's convenient; weirdly we're not allowed to fold lore in half to serve physics and reality, in a game that people have obsessive compulsion to demand it be real and immersive.

I've never understood that bit.

 

[Ufonaut]

VY Canis Majoris being the most scary one upon approach.
Even at a distance above 100ly you can clearly see it gain prominence and size against the cosmic background when getting closer.
This thing is a monster.

Same model as small star, same shaders, same prominences.
VY Canis Majoris in Space Engine

Spoiler

THIS thing feels big, scary and dangerous!

 

[Viajero]

You don't even need VR to get hit by the sheer size of Betelgeuse, let alone VY Canis Majoris.
You'll notice upon jumping into the system.
Some screens for reference at 10.000ls(!):

Sol:


RW Cephei:


Betelgeuse:


VY Canis Majoris:


VY Canis Majoris being the most scary one upon approach.
Even at a distance above 100ly you can clearly see it gain prominence and size against the cosmic background when getting closer.
This thing is a monster.

This.

I personally would love if FDEV found a way to allow players drop out from a hyper jump much much closer than today to the larger stars so to get that awe, wow, moment when confronted by a "wall".

 

[Raino]

This.

I personally would love if FDEV would find a way to allow players drop out from a hyper jump much much closer to the larger stars so to get that awe wow moment when confronted by a "wall".

it actually has been this way, or close at least
but it has been changed by FDEVs because some cmdrs have been scared to death and complained about the extraordinaire high laundry costs here

 

[Lestat]

I think people need to stop with the reality card. We lost that in Combat with WW1 100-year-old plane type combat speed.

What you all are thinking we want them super huge. That not the case here. I think people would be happy if they can tell that they're small or large just by looking at it. Vs tabbing to System map to get an idea of a star size is lame. If you explorer Like I do. I don't even bother looking at the system map. I tend to explore the whole system. Jump to a new system. With out tabbing to the System map.

Now the people going it would take longer to go around a larger star. We can counteract this by having supercruise around larger stars faster vs smaller stars. Which would take the same time as we have to now.

If we can bend the rules in combat with WW1 type speed and combat. We can do the same with Stars and heat and gravity.

 

[Viajero]

it actually has been this way, or close at least
but it has been changed by FDEVs because some cmdrs have been scared to death and complained about the extraordinaire high laundry costs here

I have been here from the first day, and as far as I remember we never had a "wall". At most what I quoted in my previous post. Unless I missed a patch that was quickly reverted!

 

[Valorin]

I'm a huge Elite fan, but I've come to feel that Stars (aka Suns) in the game are too small.

The issue is likely not the size of the stars, but that we can't get close enough to them (heat limit?) to really get a sense on how big they are.

To put it in perspective (pun intended) our Sun is 99.8% of the mass of our Solar System, making even Jupiter look small:



Anyone else wish we could get closer to the stars in the game so we could get a better sense of scale?

I kinda like the safe distance as it is. I mean, I _know_ the star is much bigger than it seems when I look at it, and yes, it doesn't feel like it because safe distance is so very far away from it, but I think it's perfect as it is now. At some point our ships have to be in danger and most suns are kinda hot I heard.
Funny thing is, that giants are pretty cool actually and that we should be able to get very close to it without suffering heat damage when compared to how much heat we can take near main sequence stars.

 

[Raino]

I think people need to stop with the reality card. We lost that in Combat with WW1 100-year-old plane type combat speed.

What you all are thinking we want them super huge. That not the case here. I think people would be happy if they can tell that they're small or large just by looking at it. Vs tabbing to System map to get an idea of a star size is lame. If you explorer Like I do. I don't even bother looking at the system map. I tend to explore the whole system. Jump to a new system. With out tabbing to the System map.

Now the people going it would take longer to go around a larger star. We can counteract this by having supercruise around larger stars faster vs smaller stars. Which would take the same time as we have to now.

If we can bend the rules in combat with WW1 type speed and combat. We can do the same with Stars and heat and gravity.

this is not about be realistic, it is about reality, about the reality here in the forum!
it used to be very more immersive, threatening sometimes, dangerous close and thrilling, which was great!
but FDEVs been forced by cmdrs here to extend the range to a safe distance

so here we are now, sorry, but i miss that too

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Just. Wow.

 

[Lestat]

I have been here from the first day, and as far as I remember we never had a "wall". At most what I quoted in my previous post. Unless I missed a patch that was quickly reverted!

I don't remember a wall either Pre Alpha and Alpha. Had a few people try to fly to a new system when the miniature bubble was added. They still had to hyperjump to that system to see what in that system. That the closes wall I know of.

 

[Patrick_68000]

There is a huge difference in size between the stars and planets. Fly to any planet (large or small) that is in close proximity to a star. Even the smallest stars dwarf the largest planets in ED.

Check your distance from the star on hyperspace dropout, the distance is huge compared to the exclusion zone of a planet.

Superb images here

 

[Lestat]

this is not about be realistic, it is about reality, about the reality here in the forum!
it used to be very more immersive, threatening sometimes, dangerous close and thrilling, which was great!
but FDEVs been forced by cmdrs here to extend the range to a safe distance

so here we are now, sorry, but i miss that too

Then post that topic so people can see it.

As I know it stars was always about this size even in Alpha. They never really had change size. So keep trying. I do know people complain about star brightness which I do agree at the time it was too bright. The only main issue I have seen early gameplay. Frontier moves combat away from Systems and stars because of game issues.

All I asking is to be able to view distance size. It doesn't have to be much just noticeable.

ever seen this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34Q

Even a fraction of the size would be cool. We would see different star sizes. It could change the game. Not the lame each star is the same size.

 

[Ian Skippy]

 

[[VR] Deggial]

Awesome picture!

Yet again: Lack of reference.

A picture like this could also be taken with a planet filling the background.
However, a planet would display recognizable surface features such as craters and rifts. As we know the general size of those, we would be able to estimate the planet's size by evaluating the features relative size in comparison to the planet's visible surface.
In contrast, we have no idea about how large those convection cells on the sun's surface really are. Even worse, they seem to increase in size on larger suns (IIRC), making size differences of the star's body even harder to judge.

 

[ZeroAi]

Thanks to everyone for their replies.

I totally get that much of what is in Elite is done for gameplay reasons, and agree we likely can't get close enough to the stars to make them seem bigger than planets for gameplay and performance reasons.

That said, in my opinion the true scale of the stars just don't come through.

And yes, I've played many hours of Elite in VR, and while it's better it still doesn't really seem different than landing on a small moon.

I know many have posted pictures showing what they feel are "big" stars, but anyone with Horizons can easily get a small planet take up more windshield space that any star in the game.

In the end it probably just isn't possible to provide a true sense of scale of the size of stars in the game, but I think it would be cool if they could find a way.

There are many suns (lowercase "s"), but only one Sun (capital "S"). Just like there are many moons but only one Moon, and many earths but only one Earth.

Well said.

The speed you're travelling at makes them seem small, as with everything in the game. The scale is fine. I've heard if you play in VR you'll see the true scale of it is revealed.

I agree the scale is fine, it just doesn't come through convincingly to me even in VR. Stars are big, but don't feel bigger than big planets to me :-(

The reason why it is implemented this way, however, is game-play related, not science/reality (= heat and stuff) based.
When we arrive at the new star, we will have to circumnavigate it in order to bring our next destination above the horizon.
If we would drop closer to the star (and have a more awe-inducing representation of its size), the travel time simply would excel the "comfortable" amount.

The current drop point is a compromise.

Totally get it.

I never understood how SC works around a star (or orbiting planets FTM). I can lap even a large star in mere seconds - a star that extends to the orbit of Mars if that star were in Sol. Yet if I actually go to Sol and follow Mars' orbit line, it will take much longer to make the same loop. Right? I never get the sense that I'm orbiting a HUGE star that would swallow the earth vs. our own sun which is quite a bit smaller, and yet is still way bigger than a moon that takes about the same time to orbit in SC.

The other thing that messes with the scale of stars is that the surface shimmers way too quickly. The gasses on the surface of large stars must be themselves moving in SC to "shimmer" that fast, seeing that a few pixels of a large star are the size of Jupiter. Whoever coded stars must have looked at SOHO videos and not realize they were seeing time-lapse photography...

Great point.

The current implementation is great for gameplay, but sacrifices the sense of scale.

I wish they could find a way to add the sense of scale in, but not sure how they would do it?

Play in VR then tell us they are too small

Been playing in Vr since 2016.

They don't feel any bigger than planets to me.

I do play in VR...and they don't feel like the massive bodies they are. They feel no bigger than the planets.

Ditto!

You should visit more stars. Many of them are a lot bigger than you might think. If you can, play in VR, it helps with the sense of scale.

Done since 2016, and no, I still can't get close enough for them to seem bigger than when I approach a planet.

That tiny dark spot over there is my Vulture, I'm at 2.70Ls from that star, it has a solar radius of 0.6996...

So, where is that star (which has a size of a bit over the half of Sol) small?

You do realize that dot which is your ship is many times the size of the planet Earth, right?

That can't be right. I've seen Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, etc.

Everyone speaks English. Even those that have their own language (aka Klingons).

lol!

Well the scale right now is the visual of a star look to much the same size of all the other stars. It doesn't matter if it large or small. They look to be the same size. The only way you can get an idea of a star size is System map.

That why my idea works out. Players get somewhat the scale of a star. It doesn't have to Super close to the stars. Just that visual feel of different star sizes. Instead, one size fits all that we currently have now.

That's a good point.

In the end gameplay comes first, like if the System Map was to scale most planets would be too small to be visible.

 

[ZeroAi]

If the OP, Old Duck, and others who are recently complaining about the scale in this game really have this much of a problem processing visual information (relative sizes, positions, speeds, etc), I would submit that it would be irresponsible indeed if they drive cars.


Not even joking, some of what I have seen in these threads frightens me when I consider these people driving.

If expressing an opinion is complaining then so be it - I have as much right to express my opinion as you do, however only one of us has resulted to using insults, and you know what they say about insults being the last refuge of...


I think you might want to take a look at the game yourself - the average sun, while hundreds of times bigger than the average planet, can never be viewed as big in game (i.e. take up more windshield space) as the average planet can (if you have Horizons)


Concerned about my driving? More than happy to put my driving skills and my old 2011 Dodge Charger MAX up against whatever you're currently driving - why don't you come up to the Berkshires so we can compare real life driving skills on the Taconic Trail. Warning - Racing up mountain passes is not for the faint of heart...