Modes With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility : discussion on ethics in Open

[ethelred]

It's crazy to me that this isn't more of an issue to FDEV. They have the means to make CMDR bounty hunting simpler and easier, which would reward people doing it. I'm a know nothing, but it seems to me that offering people the tools to do something, in a fun way would be beneficial? They could:-

1. Lock clean, non power opposed CMDR killers to Open.
2. Broadcast their position to ppl who are pledged as "Bounty Hunters"
3. Kills in High Sec (for want of a better word) results in immediate hunting down

4. Allow BH of a certain rank to telepresence into security ships when a CMDR has committed a misdemeanour

etc...

Good game design anticipates and guides players towards preferred behaviours.

As an Open only player - CMDRs are only doing what is allowed under the rules. Yes, they can fly to starter systems and club all they like, with no sanction. The game offers no benefit to leaving a CMDR alive and stealing their cargo, to just offing them. There's no in game signup for organising convoys for CGs (both for traders and escorts) that could give meaningful PvP for those who want it.

I love Open, and promote it where possible, but when the virtuous route or playstyle is so hindered then it's no surprise that CMDRs don't find being insta-killed appealing (or lack of social tools, or lack of believable MP gameplay).

In the same way, terrorist CMDRs should also have routes open to them for notoriety - this game needs its villains too, so let them operate out of anarchy systems, give them causes to fight for.

Make it a game.

 

[Slange Lands]

Good game design anticipates and guides players towards preferred behaviours.

As an Open only player - CMDRs are only doing what is allowed under the rules. Yes, they can fly to starter systems and club all they like, with no sanction. The game offers no benefit to leaving a CMDR alive and stealing their cargo, to just offing them. There's no in game signup for organising convoys for CGs (both for traders and escorts) that could give meaningful PvP for those who want it.

I love Open, and promote it where possible, but when the virtuous route or playstyle is so hindered then it's no surprise that CMDRs don't find being insta-killed appealing (or lack of social tools, or lack of believable MP gameplay).

In the same way, terrorist CMDRs should also have routes open to them for notoriety - this game needs its villains too, so let them operate out of anarchy systems, give them causes to fight for.

Make it a game.

Indeed.

Although I play Solo, I do understand that PvPers need something actually interesting to do. Most NPCs are utterly useless when one is flying a fully engineered ship. And after one has done the engineering grind, most of us are loathe to use stock ships in order to make it a more even playing field with the NPCs.

Despite piracy being advocated by Frontier, it is completely broken. Real pirates often try very hard not to kill traders, but they do not have the tools to make this possible, i.e. special modules or piracy defined space. Understandably, traders just run or fight back; some traders comply, but certainly not enough to make piracy profitable. No, highly advanced evolved parasite kills their host; that's suicide.

I love the concept of Open. But It's sort of like completely free capitalism, where there must be some regulation or you find yourself with child labor, planetary destruction and monopolies. The current C&P is a start, but is still impotent because the time and credit penalties are not high enough to deter griefing.

And as you said:
the virtuous route or playstyle is so hindered then it's no surprise that CMDRs don't find being insta-killed appealing (or lack of social tools, or lack of believable MP gameplay)

Right now only the most altruistic Commanders attempt to balance the griefers. Unfortunately, most of us are not that saint-like and need incentives to put our hard earned ships on the line. And that's where as you said, game design comes in. Hopefully, Fdev recognizes this.

o7

slange

 

[Ian Skippy]

Are there any Pvpers devoted to aiding the less fortunate and helping to right wrongs, i.e. justice type Rat? If so, I would love to hear your story and whether or not this style of gameplay is meaningful or even possible. Also, how could Fdev make player self regulation more viable and engaging?

There are entire player groups devoted to just that.

Real pirates often try very hard not to kill traders, but they do not have the tools to make this possible, i.e. special modules or piracy defined space.

Ehh, they do have special modules?

 

[Chaparral]

Point that ethics questioning finger at the designers of the space, not at the people in it.

 

[Slange Lands]

Point that ethics questioning finger at the designers of the space, not at the people in it.

As much as I love Fdev, there are some very basic design issues that desperately need to be addressed. The more I play this game, the more I realize that a lot of the complaints we have could have been completely circumvented by more thoughtful and forward game design. It breaks my heart. This game could be greater.

However, to be fair, the mat trader and always improved rolls on engineering have been a godsend.

 

[Marra Morgan]

I think morals and ethics in video games should be a vehicle for narrative and to provide gameplay options.

If they are used to inhibit the gameplay, I'm not interested.

 

[Jockey79]

Point that ethics questioning finger at the designers of the space, not at the people in it.

It's the people in it causing the problems, not the people who made it

Though granted, if it had been made differently - then some of the people couldn't be a problem

 

[Slange Lands]

I think morals and ethics in video games should be a vehicle for narrative and to provide gameplay options.

If they are used to inhibit the gameplay, I'm not interested.

I agree with you, but it may not be achievable in ED? I don't know how easy it is to separate gameplay and ethics especially when one considers that games are limited by their mechanics. For instance, ethically I believe that PP should be Open only. However, there is no doubt that that inhibits a Solo PP player's gameplay. There is also the problem of freedom of expression of different playstyles due to the design of the game. Piracy is inhibited and broken because most encounters end up in the trader either fleeing or getting killed. There are no mechanics in the game which allows the pirate to force the trader to give up cargo, thereby allowing the pirate to get cargo without killing the trader. No evolved parasite kills its host, etc. A Commander wishing to rp as a white knight has no efficient way to locate his human target, a black knight. Sitting around a system waiting for a human target is extremely boring. Hunting down a particular human target is impossible. Black knights do not have this issue since their target is everybody, so their chosen style of gameplay is not as inhibited. One can Blaze Your Own Trail only within the games limited mechanics. Hopefully Fdev will realize the insufficiency and imbalance of the design and fix it.

 

[Sylveria]

Imo, the issue whenever bounties and commensurate reward comes into play is always the same... How to stop people from simply exploiting it. How do you stop a group of buddies from intentionally getting together and just shooting each other up to get rich as a mechanic? Diminshing rewards is an option, but then it's indiscriminate in application.

It's the same with things like healing beams, where are a feature is introduced and subsequently exploited for other purposes.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see a viable implementation of a bounty system I just think that there are issues that have to be addressed so it isn't made weak sauce like the current implementation of crime and punishment as a result of having to cater to criminal activity as well as law-abiding.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

I don't know how easy it is to separate gameplay and ethics especially when one considers that games are limited by their mechanics.

Extremely easy, as long as you remember that behavior in a game isn't behavior in reality.

However, there is no doubt that that inhibits a Solo PP player's gameplay.

Not if they get with the program and click on "open".

There is also the problem of freedom of expression of different playstyles due to the design of the game. Piracy is inhibited and broken because most encounters end up in the trader either fleeing or getting killed.

Citation needed.

There are no mechanics in the game which allows the pirate to force the trader to give up cargo, thereby allowing the pirate to get cargo without killing the trader. No evolved parasite kills its host, etc.

Hatch Breaker limpet.

A Commander wishing to rp as a white knight has no efficient way to locate his human target, a black knight. Sitting around a system waiting for a human target is extremely boring.

Yes, PvP bounty hunting needs some work. Of course... what's the line between legit bounty hunting and harassment? You know that a great many players are going to confuse one for the other.

Hunting down a particular human target is impossible.

Then how come I've done it?

 

[Slange Lands]

Then how come I've done it?

Were you able to hunt down a particular player using an in game tool? Some of us are not patient enough to lie await at popular systems.....

 

[Slange Lands]

Citation needed.
Hatch Breaker limpet.

Below is Commander Lateralus' post on my thread "A REAL Punishment for continued and aggravated Seal Clubbing?". It's post no. 27. I believe him/her to be a bona fide experienced pirate.

We basically don't kill traders who comply to text macro warnings and stop (members who do kill compliant traders can be thrown out, but it doesn't happen very often), however most don't comply.

Next step is to try and disable them so we can let them reconsider - this doesn't work that well though due to drifting and cargo-streaming issues. About 25% will comply and stop after being nearly shot to death - we then usually demand more cargo than normal and send them on their way.

But there are a large number of traders who simply won't give in at all - disable them and they reboot and run again while continually charging their FSD - sometimes swearing at you in chat all the while - what does the pirate do here? Bear in mind that letting them escape makes us look incompetent (especially in the age of YouTube/Twitch). Murder is often the only thing to do against the stubborn types.

There's also another scenario - quite often an NPC pirate will drop on the interdiction and open up on the trader too. This can result in the pirate getting a murder bounty against them when they never had the intention to kill the trader in the first place..

Here is also what Commander Lateralus says in post no.34 of the same thread as above:

Another thing I failed to mention, the possibility for a combat log is always in the back of our mind as well, so this makes us twitchy - we have to act fast because out of those who run, half will combat log. Unfortunately this happens so much, a lot of pirates give up and just start ganking instead.


and when a npc pirate drops in:

Yes, it can all get a bit messy though... The ideal thing to do here is disable the trader then kill the NPC - but again there are problems: When focused on the NPC, the trader usually drifts off into the void with no drives, and is too cool to see on sensors, so we either lose them, or they escape.. If we stay focused on the trader, the NPC usually kills them and we get the blame for doing the initial damage..

Piracy is so broken in this game and desperately needs some attention.

 

[Slange Lands]

Extremely easy, as long as you remember that behavior in a game isn't behavior in reality.

Remembering that one is only playing a game may be ideal and is the most healthy, but for some of us, immersion and the resultant suspension of disbelief is the entire point of playing a game. What happens to us in game often results in very real emotions of jubilation or despair. Those emotions in turn could color events IRL.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Remembering that one is only playing a game may be ideal and is the most healthy, but for some of us, immersion and the resultant suspension of disbelief is the entire point of playing a game. What happens to us in game often results in very real emotions of jubilation or despair. Those emotions in turn could color events IRL.

I would call that getting too attached to the game. It's not healthy.

 

[Slange Lands]

I would call that getting too attached to the game. It's not healthy.

I completely agree. But sometimes RL gets so depressing that one is desperate for any distraction. Eight years ago my husband's job situation became very hostile. He was utterly miserable and explosive. I tried to be very supportive and positive, but well, failed. In turn I became depressed. Looking for anything to retain sanity, I turned to computer games and found World of Warcraft. Those first few months of playing were magical; exploring and running around in Azeroth really helped take the edge off. Since then things have improved immensely and RL is fun again. It's essential to have something to look forward to when one is upset.

Ideally computer games should never be a substitute for RL. Taken to extremes, computer game addiction has ruined many people's lives. There are WoW detoxification sites to attest to that. However, in my case, it did help and I was able to return to "normal".

 

[Jockey79]

I would call that getting too attached to the game. It's not healthy.

Do you tell this to football fans? boxing fans? people who spend hours fishing?

Everyone has a way to escape their real life for whatever reason.
And most people will get attached to a team, a personality, a game.

So I'd be careful wielding that broad brush.

 

[Strangepork]

The above quote has been attributed to Voltaire and Spiderman.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/23/great-power/

Obviously it is not incumbent to be "anything" in a video game. However, I really believe that if dedicated PvP peeps were as vociferous in their condemnation of seal clubbing as they are of clogging, the hypothetical transfer of PP to Open would not be so controversial.

This thread is not about PP or Open vs. Solo. It's about player responsibility or lack thereof, whether there are any advantages in being altruistic.

Although instancing issues may prevent players actually being able to do something about serial griefing, the forums do not have that limitation. Wouldn't it have been extremely politic for PvPers to more openly decry griefing? It would have done a lot for player unity.

Are there any Pvpers devoted to aiding the less fortunate and helping to right wrongs, i.e. justice type Rat? If so, I would love to hear your story and whether or not this style of gameplay is meaningful or even possible. Also, how could Fdev make player self regulation more viable and engaging?

o7

slange

Altruistic? I guess it's the same as RL. Social scientists have shown the best strategy in life is to be social in life, if you meet narcissism or Psychopathy, to then cut off relations.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Do you tell this to football fans? boxing fans? people who spend hours fishing?

Everyone has a way to escape their real life for whatever reason.
And most people will get attached to a team, a personality, a game.

So I'd be careful wielding that broad brush.

I'm fairly certain that she'd say the same to anyone for whom potentially bad hobby-related news was enough to announce that not only their but their daughter's birthday was ruined, followed by a foot-stomping threat to never buy their hobby's merch again.

 

[Jockey79]

I'm fairly certain that she'd say the same to anyone for whom potentially bad hobby-related news was enough to announce that not only their but their daughter's birthday was ruined, followed by a foot-stomping threat to never buy their hobby's merch again.

If you're going to try and have a dig / bait - please do it properly.

It was also my birthday.

The devil is in the details

 

[Marra Morgan]

Do you tell this to football fans? boxing fans? people who spend hours fishing?

Everyone has a way to escape their real life for whatever reason.
And most people will get attached to a team, a personality, a game.

So I'd be careful wielding that broad brush.

If I thought they were overly attached to their hobby / interest and I cared enough for them, yes of course I would.

Escapism is one thing, but for some it's sadly a case of retreating from some aspect in life they are not dealing with very well. When the bubble of their escapism gets burst, they tend to react badly, from violent outbursts to tantrums on gaming forums.

And you telling someone else about broad brushes?

Good to see you ending your post on a humourous tone