How Frontier Empowered Gankers, and How to Fix It

[Frenotx]

Plenty of good ideas but I would rather see a reigning in of the defensive boosting of ships instead of making all ships harder to kill.

You're looking at just one of the changes in a vacuum. Yes, ships that currently use their internals for non-defense modules will be harder to kill, since they'll now be able to fit a few defense modules without compromising their internal space. HOWEVER, with the removal of the ability to stuff defense modules in every free space of your ship, the top-end of defense will be significantly lowered. Additionally, the shifting of engineers from vertical progression to horizontal progression would further lower the ceiling. Net effect of defense? Raising the floor a little, but hugely lowering the ceiling such that the two are fairly close.

Absolutely agreed some serious balance issues have been introduced and ignored over the past couple of years... And I'm looking mainly at you Engineers!

The notion of having a "most wanted" table? Do we really want a league table of who can be the most toxic? Really?
...

While I think the C&P system could benefit from increased nuance in notoriety, you're also looking at one change in a vacuum. It's entirely probable that such a bounty board would get used as a leaderboard of sorts in the criminal world, but you have to consider some other factors. With the changes I've outlined, racking up a large bounty will be considerably more difficult. Smaller targets will be able to flee more easily, and equal or larger sized targets will pose a considerable threat. Between the trader's increased health and the ganker's vastly reduced health, a kill is far from a sure thing, depending on police assistance and pilot skill.

Additionally, once you start getting more notorious, the ATR will be now actively hunting you down, and trying to kill you or drive you from the system. ON TOP OF ALL THAT, since PvP bounty hunting would actually be profitable and practical now, getting your name on that board would mean suddenly you're being hunted by player bounty hunters, too.

All in all, I think it would make being a criminal OR a bounty hunter far more exciting, make both roles fit into the game world better, and make both roles impact on other players game experience far more positive.

 

[Sylveria]

You're looking at just one of the changes in a vacuum. Yes, ships that currently use their internals for non-defense modules will be harder to kill, since they'll now be able to fit a few defense modules without compromising their internal space. HOWEVER, with the removal of the ability to stuff defense modules in every free space of your ship, the top-end of defense will be significantly lowered. Additionally, the shifting of engineers from vertical progression to horizontal progression would further lower the ceiling. Net effect of defense? Raising the floor a little, but hugely lowering the ceiling such that the two are fairly close.


While I think the C&P system could benefit from increased nuance in notoriety, you're also looking at one change in a vacuum. It's entirely probable that such a bounty board would get used as a leaderboard of sorts in the criminal world, but you have to consider some other factors. With the changes I've outlined, racking up a large bounty will be considerably more difficult. Smaller targets will be able to flee more easily, and equal or larger sized targets will pose a considerable threat. Between the trader's increased health and the ganker's vastly reduced health, a kill is far from a sure thing, depending on police assistance and pilot skill.

Additionally, once you start getting more notorious, the ATR will be now actively hunting you down, and trying to kill you or drive you from the system. ON TOP OF ALL THAT, since PvP bounty hunting would actually be profitable and practical now, getting your name on that board would mean suddenly you're being hunted by player bounty hunters, too.

All in all, I think it would make being a criminal OR a bounty hunter far more exciting, make both roles fit into the game world better, and make both roles impact on other players game experience far more positive.

OFC one of the biggest problems I have with the C&P system is the lack of permanent consequences on the part of the notorious. IRL - you'd have a "rap sheet", regardless of "time served" or fines paid, or any of that. People would always know you by your deeds unless you somehow managed to get your record expunged. In ED- there simply isn't any record at all. Notoriety simply drops off and you're free to do all of it all over again. This ties into why the mechanics of Bounty systems can also be exploited. Simply gather a group of friends to kill each other randomly, have one collect payment on them. Wash, rinse, repeat. This is why Bounty systems usually have low payouts.

If it included a system where a CMDR's record displayed their past deeds- regardless of current "status", it would be much more likely that you could spot those engaging in criminal activity for particular reason (piracy, etc.) as opposed to just murdering others for "fun".

Just a thought.

 

[Frenotx]

OFC one of the biggest problems I have with the C&P system is the lack of permanent consequences on the part of the notorious. IRL - you'd have a "rap sheet", regardless of "time served" or fines paid, or any of that. People would always know you by your deeds unless you somehow managed to get your record expunged. In ED- there simply isn't any record at all. Notoriety simply drops off and you're free to do all of it all over again. This ties into why the mechanics of Bounty systems can also be exploited. Simply gather a group of friends to kill each other randomly, have one collect payment on them. Wash, rinse, repeat. This is why Bounty systems usually have low payouts.

If it included a system where a CMDR's record displayed their past deeds- regardless of current "status", it would be much more likely that you could spot those engaging in criminal activity for particular reason (piracy, etc.) as opposed to just murdering others for "fun".

Just a thought.

I'm not a fan of permanent consequences. They may be realistic, but this is a game and I don't think they'd be good for gameplay. In Elite you can go from being a faction's hated enemy to their trusted ally with some work and time. It makes sense that criminal standing would be mutable, too. Besides, there are an inconceivable number of people in the world of Elite- blending into the crowd doesn't seem like it would be too hard especially with the help of hackers to help clean your record (which is what I assume interstellar factors is). I'm all for notoriety (the concept, not specifically the stat in Elite) sticking around for a bit, but I think it's important to be able to clean up your act and record with enough time and effort. Without that ability, I think there'd be risk of all crime (including "legitimate" crime encouraged by the game) becoming too unapproachable.

I want crime to remain in the game, and be a compelling choice for CMDRs. It should be hard and had consequences, but come with adequate pay-offs and perks, too. CMDRs should also be able to dabble in crime here and there, without having to permanent commit. One could say I want crime to have its... pros and cons.

 

[Sylveria]

I'm not a fan of permanent consequences. They may be realistic, but this is a game and I don't think they'd be good for gameplay. In Elite you can go from being a faction's hated enemy to their trusted ally with some work and time. It makes sense that criminal standing would be mutable, too. Besides, there are an inconceivable number of people in the world of Elite- blending into the crowd doesn't seem like it would be too hard especially with the help of hackers to help clean your record (which is what I assume interstellar factors is). I'm all for notoriety (the concept, not specifically the stat in Elite) sticking around for a bit, but I think it's important to be able to clean up your act and record with enough time and effort. Without that ability, I think there'd be risk of all crime (including "legitimate" crime encouraged by the game) becoming too unapproachable.

I want crime to remain in the game, and be a compelling choice for CMDRs. It should be hard and had consequences, but come with adequate pay-offs and perks, too. CMDRs should also be able to dabble in crime here and there, without having to permanent commit. One could say I want crime to have its... pros and cons.

I suppose the difference is the perspective of lending "legitimacy" to crime to begin with. Encouraged as game play? Sure. Made "legitimate", I'm not quite so sure.

Although I see your point, I think it's one of the primary obstacles that make this game "arcadey" to begin with. Simply wash, rinse, repeat and no thought given to actual consequence.

 

[Frenotx]

I suppose the difference is the perspective of lending "legitimacy" to crime to begin with. Encouraged as game play? Sure. Made "legitimate", I'm not quite so sure.

Although I see your point, I think it's one of the primary obstacles that make this game "arcadey" to begin with. Simply wash, rinse, repeat and no thought given to actual consequence.

There are a fairly wide variety of illegal missions. Additionally, the option of being a pirate is a pretty core thing in the Elite series. Those are the type of crime I was specially referring to.

Wanton killing sprees of anything that moves is legitimate (though not what I was referring to) in that it's fine for players to RP as a psycho murderer, but the game systems should make it extremely difficult to get terribly far doing that. Humans tend not to like mass murderers, and generally take whatever steps possible to stop them. The game should reflect that.

 

[Sylveria]

There are a fairly wide variety of illegal missions. Additionally, the option of being a pirate is a pretty core thing in the Elite series. Those are the type of crime I was specially referring to.

Wanton killing sprees of anything that moves is legitimate (though not what I was referring to) in that it's fine for players to RP as a psycho murderer, but the game systems should make it extremely difficult to get terribly far doing that. Humans tend not to like mass murderers, and generally take whatever steps possible to stop them. The game should reflect that.

If each CMDR's record were available from the Pilot's Federation- then it would go a long way to ensure those who engage in such activities are well known to all.

Both "legitimate" criminals and wanton murderers alike. Those who have "clean" records would also be reflected in-kind.

Adding a record of such and integrating it into the C&P system would only serve to strengthen it in this way. If "RPing a Psycho Murderer" is indeed the goal, then you'd be glad to know you're well known to the entire galaxy for such actions, accomplishing this task. Also serves as a good means of finding "like minded" players in the multiplayer context. Doesn't remove "freedom" in the slightest.

 

[Han Zulu]

There are a fairly wide variety of illegal missions. Additionally, the option of being a pirate is a pretty core thing in the Elite series. Those are the type of crime I was specially referring to.

Wanton killing sprees of anything that moves is legitimate (though not what I was referring to) in that it's fine for players to RP as a psycho murderer, but the game systems should make it extremely difficult to get terribly far doing that. Humans tend not to like mass murderers, and generally take whatever steps possible to stop them. The game should reflect that.

Exactly.

It's way too easy to be a griefer/ganker. Just put on some weapons and an interdictor and go out and hunt the weak. Not hard. But it should be.

 

[ryan_m]

Additionally, once you start getting more notorious, the ATR will be now actively hunting you down, and trying to kill you or drive you from the system. ON TOP OF ALL THAT, since PvP bounty hunting would actually be profitable and practical now, getting your name on that board would mean suddenly you're being hunted by player bounty hunters, too.

All in all, I think it would make being a criminal OR a bounty hunter far more exciting, make both roles fit into the game world better, and make both roles impact on other players game experience far more positive.

It's not more exciting for the criminal because there is still no reason to be a criminal. The way to stop ganking is to redirect that gameplay into something else. If there are all of these "sticks" added to curb criminal gameplay but no rewards, your plan ends up meaning nothing because no one will ever PvP bounty hunt. There's not a ship in the game that can reliably kill a PvPer before they can leave. You literally cannot drop enough people onto me before I can get out of an instance.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

There is really no need to reinvent the wheel with more contrived and convoluted "crime" and "punishment" - you want to remove ganking? Make PvE mode. Done. No more ganking. Or rather griefing.

I don't know what's really wrong with a good gank in a good PvP environment anyway. It's called "skirmishing" in my book and useful for luring out some players so people can have a proper battle in many games. Then again - a good PvP environment would look to have variety and options without going for the power creep and grind trap.

 

[Sylveria]

It's not more exciting for the criminal because there is still no reason to be a criminal. The way to stop ganking is to redirect that gameplay into something else. If there are all of these "sticks" added to curb criminal gameplay but no rewards, your plan ends up meaning nothing because no one will ever PvP bounty hunt. There's not a ship in the game that can reliably kill a PvPer before they can leave. You literally cannot drop enough people onto me before I can get out of an instance.

Ease of ability and incentives to do so are two completely separate things.

 

[Han_Zen]

The problem is not that it's hard to avoid death in open. Even in an freewinder it's quite easy. You just have to avoid players.
Once you have cash and engineer access, it's easy to build a trader that can survive anything.

The problem is that it's boring. Hi-waking is impractical and annoying. It's easy but it ads nothing but hassle, if you are on your way to deliver a mission or some cargo.

The entire situation has to be changed to make it potentially interesting for both players.
That can only be achieved by making the 'end game' trader as strong as the end game killer, because they are essentially in the same ship.
All defensive modules needs to go in custom compartments/utility slots.

 

[NeilF]

You're looking at just one of the changes in a vacuum. Yes, ships that currently use their internals for non-defense modules will be harder to kill, since they'll now be able to fit a few defense modules without compromising their internal space. HOWEVER, with the removal of the ability to stuff defense modules in every free space of your ship, the top-end of defense will be significantly lowered. Additionally, the shifting of engineers from vertical progression to horizontal progression would further lower the ceiling. Net effect of defense? Raising the floor a little, but hugely lowering the ceiling such that the two are fairly close.


While I think the C&P system could benefit from increased nuance in notoriety, you're also looking at one change in a vacuum. It's entirely probable that such a bounty board would get used as a leaderboard of sorts in the criminal world, but you have to consider some other factors. With the changes I've outlined, racking up a large bounty will be considerably more difficult. Smaller targets will be able to flee more easily, and equal or larger sized targets will pose a considerable threat. Between the trader's increased health and the ganker's vastly reduced health, a kill is far from a sure thing, depending on police assistance and pilot skill.

Additionally, once you start getting more notorious, the ATR will be now actively hunting you down, and trying to kill you or drive you from the system. ON TOP OF ALL THAT, since PvP bounty hunting would actually be profitable and practical now, getting your name on that board would mean suddenly you're being hunted by player bounty hunters, too.

All in all, I think it would make being a criminal OR a bounty hunter far more exciting, make both roles fit into the game world better, and make both roles impact on other players game experience far more positive.

I do not like the idea of players simply being viewed as a score. The more easily destroyable the better... So no... No toxic league table of who can destroy the most players unable to fight back, for no in game purpose or outcome other than to see my toxic name at the top of this toxic score board.

Can you detect how much I am against it?

 

[Frenotx]

It's not more exciting for the criminal because there is still no reason to be a criminal. The way to stop ganking is to redirect that gameplay into something else. If there are all of these "sticks" added to curb criminal gameplay but no rewards, your plan ends up meaning nothing because no one will ever PvP bounty hunt. There's not a ship in the game that can reliably kill a PvPer before they can leave. You literally cannot drop enough people onto me before I can get out of an instance.

With engineering being shifted to sidegrades and defense modules being significantly less stackable on ships, the high end of TTK would be a hell of a lot lower. Utility mounts could be used for wake and warrant scanners without severely compromising defense. Add that together with better ways to track people down and bounty hunting could be far more possible. Would my proposed changes alone completely solve the issues there? No, and I make no claims that they will. Will they improve the situation and open doors for further additions and improvements? Yes, I believe they would.

 

[Han Zulu]

I think Frontier needs to create some kind of system where pilots can sign up to be security and work in wings, with specialized interdictors, unique extra strong shields, and such, and basically work for the advanced security team (can never remember the abbreviation, ATF, ATR, ARF?) Basically, make it a career in Elite to be a cop, with extra tools and extra rewards, perhaps even a part of power play. Sign up for security forces to a power and go hunt in wings, and just sweep the floor clean.

 

[Weps]

The problem is not that it's hard to avoid death in open. Even in an freewinder it's quite easy. You just have to avoid players.
Once you have cash and engineer access, it's easy to build a trader that can survive anything.

The problem is that it's boring. Hi-waking is impractical and annoying. It's easy but it ads nothing but hassle, if you are on your way to deliver a mission or some cargo.

The entire situation has to be changed to make it potentially interesting for both players.
That can only be achieved by making the 'end game' trader as strong as the end game killer, because they are essentially in the same ship.
All defensive modules needs to go in custom compartments/utility slots.

I know this is useless, but I just have to QFT this. 1000x this!

It's clear that E: D aimed to recreate the Age of Sail in space, with pirates being able to get lost in the vastness of the sea space, with traders gambling their fortune on unsafe routes, no insurance, no connected markets, with privateers being heroes and villains at the same time in different jurisdictions. Except the ships were designed to fill contemporary roles such as commercial or naval ships, and as the OP describes, the difference between them in terms of combat has grown and grown so much in time, that currently it just doesn't work anymore.

It's unacceptable, that for a supposedly multiplayer game, costing the market's usual 59.95, the only interaction between two players who happen to have chosen different playstyles is the ASAP high-wake mechanic, or choosing the invisible duel by selecting different modes.

If the intention was to create a multiplayer experience where you absolutely have to choose a combat ship which is in the top 1% of all combat ships out there, then creating an entire galaxy as the battleground was pointless. The same could have been done with a fraction of the budget and some arenas.

 

[Han Zulu]

If the intention was to create a multiplayer experience where you absolutely have to choose a combat ship which is in the top 1% of all combat ships out there, then creating an entire galaxy as the battleground was pointless. The same could have been done with a fraction of the budget and some arenas.

Yup. It's a thing that bugs me a little.

400 billion star systems. Only 50,000 or so populated systems (~0.00001% or something) where 99.9% of game play is developed. For 100,000 players, it's 4 million systems per person. Only 20 million systems have been logged in EDSM, and to get through the whole galaxy it'll take another 400 years I think it was. Basically, there's a huge platform or world out there that's just not doing anything. There's no game play except for jonking. I think the galaxy is an overkill and FDev can't figure out what to do with it. There's no imagination, creativity, or effort to expand on the experience, game play, tools and fun and such for the 399980000000 system we haven't been to yet. Let's hope the Q4 update will add something to the 99.99999% of the galaxy we haven't been to yet.
\

 

[Frenotx]

..of who can destroy the most players unable to fight back..

This is the important part you're missing. Right now yes, traders and PvE ships can't really fight back. Even if their flying better than the attacker, the sheer health advantage of the attacker ensures their victory. With my proposed changes, that wouldn't be the case. Targets smaller than you could easily escape. Targets you can catch would have comparable defenses to you, and could actually fight back. Even the trade ships with their poor maneuverability and hardpoint selection could drive off an attacker with the help of the cops (which would be significantly more threatening, since player ships wouldn't be so wildly superior to them anymore) Picking uneven fights would be significantly more difficult. Rampages would be wildly less practical, since the targets you can catch can potentially kill you, the ATR will be doing its best to drive you away or kill you, and player bounty hunters will be hunting you down and killing you. The game could use better RP justification for such activities, but even that has some precedent in massacre missions. The number of times I've turned down "kill X civilians" missions is, well, a high number.

 

[NeilF]

This is the important part you're missing. Right now yes, traders and PvE ships can't really fight back. Even if their flying better than the attacker, the sheer health advantage of the attacker ensures their victory. With my proposed changes, that wouldn't be the case. Targets smaller than you could easily escape. Targets you can catch would have comparable defenses to you, and could actually fight back. Even the trade ships with their poor maneuverability and hardpoint selection could drive off an attacker with the help of the cops (which would be significantly more threatening, since player ships wouldn't be so wildly superior to them anymore) Picking uneven fights would be significantly more difficult. Rampages would be wildly less practical, since the targets you can catch can potentially kill you, the ATR will be doing its best to drive you away or kill you, and player bounty hunters will be hunting you down and killing you. The game could use better RP justification for such activities, but even that has some precedent in massacre missions. The number of times I've turned down "kill X civilians" missions is, well, a high number.

OR, just heavily penalise illegal destruction and promote/offer/orchestrate plenty of meaningful consensual PvP.

Madness... People interested in PvP being offered interesting, easy to find PvP gameplay against other people interested in PvP gameplay!


Done!

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

OR, just heavily penalise illegal destruction and promote/offer/orchestrate plenty of meaningful consensual PvP.

Madness... People interested in PvP being offered interesting, easy to find PvP gameplay against other people interested in PvP gameplay!


Done!

It's easy to talk about penalties and what not, but very difficult to actually make concrete rules that result in what you want to happen. I think giving people a chance to be the better pilot regardless of current ship has a lot of merit. I'm biased. I'm a decent PvP pilot. Nothing would make me happier than turning a gank on my trading vessel into an abject lesson. But it's just not realistic with the way the game is right now.

I just think the game overall would be more exciting if everyone could pose a threat. To pride, if nothing else. Because a lot of people (and I include myself in this despite not goldrushing) don't care about rebuys to any real degree and NPC cops are less than an afterthought on the edge of a waking dream.

 

[gorhrut]

i always thought it was weird balance issue that the big 3 have no problem maneuvering like the small ships, yet have vastly more firepower.

though, i suppose in space, big ship with big engines can move just as well as the smalls.