Challenger has silly nacelle landing gear too?

You know, thinking of how the chieftain and the challenger have these engine based landing gears
i have an idea on how it could better reflect a working landing gear on the chieftain at least.

We have 4 engine pods, why not make them rotate to 90° having the thrust jets pointing down
like it is on a VTOL?
On the pods there could be extendible struts, that unfold a foot at the end putting
some distance between the jet itself and the ground.

Would look pretty cool and should yield a new way to fly the chieftain,
by having an upwards thrust with landing gear deployed that is
close to maximum forward thrust.

Some impressions:
hqdefault.jpg

push-pull-props.jpg

Imagine in the latter one the box shape to be the nacelle,
and the struts to be the extendable landing gear.
 
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You know, thinking of how the chieftain and the challenger have these engine based landing gears
i have an idea on how it could better reflect a working landing gear on the chieftain at least.

We have 4 engine pods, why not make them rotate to 90° having the thrust jets pointing down
like it is on a VTOL?
On the pods there could be extendible struts, that unfold a foot at the end putting
some distance between the jet itself and the ground.

Would look pretty cool and should yield a new way to fly the chieftain,
by having an upwards thrust with landing gear deployed that is
close to maximum forward thrust.

I was hoping they would do that but my expections were what we got.

At least I have the Keelback
*Puts Camera in 3rd person and spins around to see the engines move*
 
I was hoping they would do that but my expections were what we got.

At least I have the Keelback
*Puts Camera in 3rd person and spins around to see the engines move*

Keelback is a real cool ship.
+1 virt rep, i need to spread the butter before repping again....
 
You know, thinking of how the chieftain and the challenger have these engine based landing gears
i have an idea on how it could better reflect a working landing gear on the chieftain at least.

We have 4 engine pods, why not make them rotate to 90° having the thrust jets pointing down
like it is on a VTOL?
On the pods there could be extendible struts, that unfold a foot at the end putting
some distance between the jet itself and the ground.

Would look pretty cool and should yield a new way to fly the chieftain,
by having an upwards thrust with landing gear deployed that is
close to maximum forward thrust.

Some impressions:

Imagine in the latter one the box shape to be the nacelle,
and the struts to be the extendable landing gear.

I would have like something like this too!

-----

By the way thanks for talking about what the thread was about instead of making it another which new ships is better thread like others seem to be doing!
 
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I've bought the challenger this afternoon, I'm having a blast with it tbh.

I like it way more than the chieftain, which already was one of my favorite ship in terms of design, and my god it sounds so damn good. I'm sure the challenger is the most hoomphy ship in the entire game hands down, when I decelerate the engines sound like I'm trying to tame an apocalyptic steel machine.
 
How would you know. So you know how much space the engines take up?

Just look at the engine nacelle and consider how the intakes and retro thrusters are mounted at the front of the engine pods. It would make zero sense to have an intake/retro thruster on the front of an engine housing that contains empty space. Whoever decided to put landing gear in that area quite simply didn't think about what they were doing. It's basic common sense here, if the nacelle is empty then the Chieftan is the most ridiculous ship design in the entire game.
 
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You do realize that the landing gear occupies so much space that there's no room for the actual engine? That's the immersion issue. It would be the same if there was a weapon hardpoint deploying from a critical ship area. It's an issue of attention to detail and plausible ship design and since that is really FD's only job when designing a new ship it's not an unreasonable expectation for players to have. It doesn't really bother me personally since I've abandoned any expectation of immersion in Elite several years ago but it's still a valid criticism.
Please link your schematic of the Chieftain/Challenger engine design showing evidence of this, otherwise your argument is invalid.
 
Please link your schematic of the Chieftain/Challenger engine design showing evidence of this, otherwise your argument is invalid.

It was extensively discussed around the time the Chieftan launched. If you weren't on the forums for those discussions, however, you can easily google a picture of the Chieftan's engine pod and take a look yourself, or even better, use the in-game external camera. There is clearly no space for both the landing gear and the engine to occupy the same space in the pod at the same time.
 
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It was extensively discussed around the time the Chieftan launched. If you weren't on the forums for those discussions, however, you can easily google a picture of the Chieftan's engine pod and take a look yourself, or even better, use the in-game external camera. There is clearly no space for both the landing gear and the engine to occupy the same space in the pod at the same time.
Yes, yes there is. The engine may very well just be a small disk-shaped unit on the back of the pod. That was suggested by several people back when the Chieftain came out.

I see you’re under the impression that the front of the pod is an “intake” for the engine. Let’s analyze the absurdity of that statement, shall we?

This is a space ship. It flies in a vacuum. What exactly is that intake supposed to do? It’s obviously not a fuel scoop, as the “intakes” are present regardless of whether or not you equip a fuel scoop. They likely have nothing to do with the thrusters at the back of the pod.

So what is that structure for? The logical answer is “we don’t know”. Better to admit that than to fault the art department for not conforming to your lack of imagination.
 
Yes, yes there is. The engine may very well just be a small disk-shaped unit on the back of the pod. That was suggested by several people back when the Chieftain came out.

Sorry but that suggestion is nonsense. No one would design an engine pod to carry two tiny engines at either end of the pod and use the centre space simply for a large landing gear assembly. Using the pod space primarily for the landing gear and only carrying engine components as an afterthought at the ends of the pod would make zero sense from a design perspective. Take a look at the minimum space used by the landing gear in the diagram below that was used to illustrate this when the Chieftain launched. The engine components would be pushed to the front and rear of the pod which wouldn't make any sense:

cq4wNI9.jpg


I see you’re under the impression that the front of the pod is an “intake” for the engine. Let’s analyze the absurdity of that statement, shall we?

You clearly have no idea how hydrogen-fuelled sci-fi engines are described in many sci-fi settings. In fact many space fighters in Star Wars and simlar settings even use large fuel scoop "intakes" which are either used for atmospheric operations (i.e., as part of a ramjet assembly) or to collect hydrogen fuel for use when operating in space. In Elite the intake design is most likely intended to act as a retrothruster although it is certainly shaped like an intake of some sort and not simply a thruster. You can think of it like a thrust reverser if you like but whether it's an intake or retrothruster isn't really important here. Either way it needs to be connected directly to the main engine that is generating thrust for the engine design to make any sense.

This is a space ship. It flies in a vacuum.

Except when it doesn't. You do realize that these ships are also designed to operate and land on atmospheric worlds, right? Even though we don't have that ability in-game?

What exactly is that intake supposed to do?

That would depend on exactly how the engine is supposed to function. Like I mentioned above, most sci-fi ships are modelled with "intakes" that can serve any number of purposes. Either some sort of ramjet for more efficient atmospheric operations, a hydrogen fuel scoop or some combination of intake/retrothruster functionality.

It’s obviously not a fuel scoop, as the “intakes” are present regardless of whether or not you equip a fuel scoop. They likely have nothing to do with the thrusters at the back of the pod.

Sorry, how is it "obviously" not a fuel scoop and why do you consider it "likely" that it has "nothing to do with the thrusters at the back of the pod"? That's a lot of nonsensical assumptions on your part which have no logical engineering or even common sense basis to back them up.

You also don't seem to have put any actual thought into how Elite technology would actually work. A fuel scoop in Elite collects superheated bulk hydrogen from a star's corona. This fuel is literally consumed on the order of several tons at a time in order to fuel the ship's jump drive and this is why the main fuel scoop is a large module that has to be fitted separately to your ship. A ship's sublight engines however could easily incorporate a smaller fuel scoop intake assembly to collect much smaller amounts of fuel for reaction mass or for atmospheric operations. The difference between consuming several tons of hydrogen fuel for a FSD jump and consuming much smaller amounts of fuel for reaction mass could easily explain these differences.

So what is that structure for? The logical answer is “we don’t know”. Better to admit that than to fault the art department for not conforming to your lack of imagination.

I see, so if something isn't physically plausible and defies common sense, refusing to accept it is somehow a lack of "imagination"? Sorry but that's now how common sense works. If anyone can readily see that the Chieftan's landing gear takes up too much space in the engine pod for there to be a continuous engine assembly that is an obvious design problem. I have no problem with the idea of an engine intake as they are quite common in sci-fi settings but there still needs to be enough space for the engine to physically occupy the engine pod in a believable manner. When a game like Elite relies on a sense of immersion for the gameplay these types of design issues are not minor problems, they reflect a lack of attention to detail and a poor quality control process for ship design.
 
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Sorry but that suggestion is nonsense. No one would design an engine pod to carry two tiny engines at either end of the pod and use the centre space simply for a large landing gear assembly. Using the pod space primarily for the landing gear and only carrying engine components as an afterthought at the ends of the pod would make zero sense from a design perspective. Take a look at the minimum space used by the landing gear in the diagram below that was used to illustrate this when the Chieftain launched. The engine components would be pushed to the front and rear of the pod which wouldn't make any sense
Wouldn't make any sense TO YOU. You keep forgetting that. The funny thing is, your diagram makes perfect sense to me. You keep calling it an "engine pod", but where does FDev call it that? Just because it contains engines doesn't mean it was meant to primarily be an engine pod. Likely, Lakon put them there to compliment the forward pods aesthetically. You forget that we are playing in an era where spacecraft design has evolved far beyond being purely functional (Gutamaya makes that quite clear). 34th century engineers can do whatever they want with ship designs and still make it work, because they aren't limited by our meager 21st century standards. Stop and use your imagination for a change.

You clearly have no idea how hydrogen-fuelled sci-fi engines are described in many sci-fi settings.
LOL. You're talking to someone whose favorite books in high school were the Star Trek TNG Technincal Manual and the Star Wars Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. I've forgotten more about sci-fi spacecraft design than you'll likely ever know.

Except when it doesn't. You do realize that these ships are also designed land on atmospheric worlds, right? Even though we don't have that ability in-game?
Why would 34th century engineers want to put multiple types of engine on a ship like this, when the regular sub-light drives are clearly sufficient to propel the craft through an atmosphere? If you can show me offical lore stating that the Chieftain has air-breathing engines, then I'll buy that.

Sorry, how is it "obviously" not a fuel scoop and why do you consider it "likely" that it has "nothing to do with the thrusters at the back of the pod"? That's a lot of nonsensical assumptions on your part which have no logical engineering or even common sense basis to back them up.
You must not have a Cutter. The Cutter has nothing even remotely resembling an intake anywhere on it (a common feature across Gutamaya's ships). Despite this, they can equip a fuel scoop, and presumably also fly in an atmosphere. If these "intakes" are meant to serve either of those functions, then why are they not present across all ships? You keep making your own assumptions despite the fact that neither of us has any hard evidence whatsoever.

You also don't seem to have put any actual thought into how Elite technology would actually work. A fuel scoop in Elite collects superheated bulk hydrogen from a star's corona. This fuel is literally consumed on the order of several tons at a time in order to fuel the ship's jump drive and this is why it is a large module that has to be fitted separately to your ship. A ship's sublight engines however could easily incorporate a smaller fuel scoop intake assembly to collect much smaller amounts of fuel for reaction mass or for atmospheric operations. The difference between consuming several tons of hydrogen fuel and consuming much smaller amounts of fuel for reaction mass could easily explain these differences.
Do you have any idea how little gas is out there in interstellar space? If you flew through the densest part of a planetary nebula, you might bump into a few stray atoms, but that's about it. Furthermore, why would you want to have multiple fuel scoop assemblies when one will do? Where's the logic in that? I'd believe it if the Chieftain was somehow superior at scooping compared to other ships with the same max optional internal size, but that isn't the case. And again, why are you so hung up on the idea of using air-breathing engines for atmospheric flight? How are those going to work on ammonia worlds, exactly?



I see, so if something isn't physically plausible and defies common sense, refusing to accept it is somehow a lack of "imagination"? Sorry but that's now how common sense works. If anyone can readily see that the Chieftan's landing gear takes up too much space in the engine pod for there to be a continuous engine assembly that is an obvious design problem. When a game like Elite relies on a sense of immersion for the gameplay these types of design issues are not minor problems, they reflect a lack of attention to detail and a poor quality control process for ship design.
Once again, the design is physically plausible, just not from your limited perspective. The "common sense" argument you keep using is relying on knowledge that is 1286 years out of date, so I take it with a grain of salt. Using your logic, the air data probe on the front of an F-14 must clearly serve the same function as a bowsprit.
 
Wouldn't make any sense TO YOU.

Or to anyone else who complained about the issue when the Chieftan launched.

You keep forgetting that.

I'm not forgetting anything, I read the Chieftan discussions in detail. For some reason you don't seem to understand that this issue was discussed in detail at the time and is still a major design flaw.

The funny thing is, your diagram makes perfect sense to me. You keep calling it an "engine pod", but where does FDev call it that? Just because it contains engines doesn't mean it was meant to primarily be an engine pod. Likely, Lakon put them there to compliment the forward pods aesthetically. You forget that we are playing in an era where spacecraft design has evolved far beyond being purely functional (Gutamaya makes that quite clear). 34th century engineers can do whatever they want with ship designs and still make it work, because they aren't limited by our meager 21st century standards. Stop and use your imagination for a change.

Sorry but "use your imagination" isn't a substitute for common sense. Putting large engine pods on struts that primarily house landing gear is ridiculous. You really have to do better than that if you want to have a meaningful discussion here.

LOL. You're talking to someone whose favorite books in high school were the Star Trek TNG Technincal Manual and the Star Wars Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. I've forgotten more about sci-fi spacecraft design than you'll likely ever know.

No you really haven't. First, the TNG manual was nonsensical pseudoscience that used literally made-up chemical formulas and had almost no relation to actual science. Second, the Star Wars books were even worse and quoted ridiculous megaton yields for weapons that were clearly shown in the movies to have nowhere hear that level of destructive power. You clearly haven't read any "hard" sci-fi series if you're referring to Star Trek and the Star Wars vehicle guides as a "reference" for how much "sci-fi spacecraft design" you've read about.

In fact I have a picture right in front of me from the Colonial Marines Technical Manual going into detail about a ramjet intake for the Sulaco's dropship. Even that book had far better "hard" sci-fi in it than either Star Trek or Star Wars. Don't even get me started on The Expanse which is the best sci-fi series on TV.

Why would 34th century engineers want to put multiple types of engine on a ship like this, when the regular sub-light drives are clearly sufficient to propel the craft through an atmosphere? If you can show me official lore stating that the Chieftain has air-breathing engines, then I'll buy that.

I never said they had to be air-breathing. I said that there are many conceivable uses for an intake and you don't seem to have considered them at all simply because you viewed the ship entirely as a "space" vehicle without considering the obvious role for atmospheric operations.

You must not have a Cutter. The Cutter has nothing even remotely resembling an intake anywhere on it (a common feature across Gutamaya's ships). Despite this, they can equip a fuel scoop, and presumably also fly in an atmosphere. If these "intakes" are meant to serve either of those functions, then why are they not present across all ships? You keep making your own assumptions despite the fact that neither of us has any hard evidence whatsoever.

Do you even take a look at the ship exterior when fuel scooping? It doesn't use regular "intakes" at all, the ship opens up collection vents which are deployed when near a star. The intakes on ship engines are completely separate and would relate to the operation of the sublight engines.

Do you have any idea how little gas is out there in interstellar space? If you flew through the densest part of a planetary nebula, you might bump into a few stray atoms, but that's about it. Furthermore, why would you want to have multiple fuel scoop assemblies when one will do? Where's the logic in that? I'd believe it if the Chieftain was somehow superior at scooping compared to other ships with the same max optional internal size, but that isn't the case. And again, why are you so hung up on the idea of using air-breathing engines for atmospheric flight? How are those going to work on ammonia worlds, exactly?

First, if particle density was an issue, why wouldn't you simply assume the intakes would be opened when flying when near a star or gas giant, or when operating in an atmosphere, and would remained closed at other times? Second, you claim to be a Star Trek fan yet don't seem to understand that the glowing red Bussard collectors on the front of warp engines are simply hydrogen fuel scoops designed to operate in interstellar space. They can even be reversed to cause a flow of hydrogen to be released from the bussard collectors if necessary (which was used in a recent episode I watched again last week). I suppose someone should tell Star Trek to remove all the red glowing hydrogen ramscoops from all the Star Trek ships simply because you don't understand how they are theorized to work and assume they could never be useful?

It's like you don't even have a basic understanding of how these various sci-fi technologies are supposed to function. That is really essential if you want to have this sort of discussion.

Once again, the design is physically plausible, just not from your limited perspective. The "common sense" argument you keep using is relying on knowledge that is 1286 years out of date, so I take it with a grain of salt. Using your logic, the air data probe on the front of an F-14 must clearly serve the same function as a bowsprit.

Sorry but designing an engine pod to carry landing gear and two small engines makes no sense. It's simply an implausible design. The best excuse you can come up with is to "use your imagination" yet you don't seem to have even a basic understanding of the types of sci-fi technologies that would be involved in making such an engine actually function.
 
Who cares what's happening at the back when you extend your gear, you can't see it without external cam or an SRV anyway. It's the thargoids exploding out in front that are the most interesting feature.
 
People are failing to notice that the landing gear does NOT take up as much room in the pod as some are saying. Exhibit A:

[video=youtube;tuiDSaPjS04]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuiDSaPjS04[/video]

It's hardly taking up any internal space in the pod at all.

Devari, the picture you showed assumes the landing gear is a solid form, and doesn't take into account the gap down the middle through the gear structure, among other things.
 
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It's hardly taking up any internal space in the pod at all.

Devari, the picture you showed assumes the landing gear is a solid form, and doesn't take into account the gap down the middle through the gear structure, among other things.

From the video you posted it looks to me like the landing gear is still taking up at least 1/3 of the pod space based on how far the hydraulics would extend up into the pod. It's hard to tell without better lighting showing exactly where the hydraulics are mounted but that is still quite a bit of space that would otherwise be occupied by the engine itself. It is certainly taking up enough space that the lower rear pod thrusters wouldn't have any way of being continuously connected with the front of the pod, i.e., there would be a small tiny thruster mounted directly behind the landing gear. Similarly the forward intake/retrothruster assembly wouldn't be continuously connected to the forward part of the engine.
 
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From the video you posted it looks to me like the landing gear is still taking up at least 1/3 of the pod space based on how far the hydraulics would extend up into the pod. It's hard to tell without better lighting showing exactly where the hydraulics are mounted but that is still quite a bit of space that would otherwise be occupied by the engine itself. It is certainly taking up enough space that the lower rear pod thrusters wouldn't have any way of being continuously connected with the front of the pod, i.e., there would be a small tiny thruster mounted directly behind the landing gear. Similarly the forward intake/retrothruster assembly wouldn't be continuously connected to the forward part of the engine.

Looks to me like it's barely poking into the engine compartment. I also don't know why you'd assume it is running on hydraulics. It looks to me like an upper and lower pair of gears at the two pivot points, and it doesn't appear the assembly would retract any more than the diameter of those gears, if that, and they could potentially be cradled around the sides of the lower thruster.
 
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People are failing to notice that the landing gear does NOT take up as much room in the pod as some are saying. Exhibit A:



It's hardly taking up any internal space in the pod at all.

Devari, the picture you showed assumes the landing gear is a solid form, and doesn't take into account the gap down the middle through the gear structure, among other things.

Interesting view. I think this clip succinctly clinches the 'issue' here, it visibly takes up only a small area at the bottom.

Still a questionable design choice if you put yourself in a ship manufacturer's shoes, but on the other hand, maybe there was nowhere else to put it and remain stable whilst landed? (Or the art team made it up, went 'Hey, landing gear from these pods would be kinda cool' and ran with it, take whichever story floats your boat. lol)
 
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