Where is the paid 'content' LEP holder get for 'free'

[Red Anders]

Jeez louise some of you guys defending FD with lines like "well you took a risk with the LTP" etc..

No. People. Didn't.

FDev a company based in the UK where UK laws apply They sold "something". They must deliver on that or pay refunds (well unless they want a load of people to take them to the small claims court, again). Since they didn't set a timescale that "something" can be delivered whenever but they have to deliver. Stop arguing against that as you look like corporate shills of the worst kind.

Did you buy an LEP?
Did the LEP specify a number of updates that you would receive during the LEP's lifetime?
Did the LEP specify how long the 'lifetime' is? *

If the answers to those are 'Yes', 'No' and 'No' then you took a gamble simply because you paid a known amount of money for an unknown quantity. Your own post shows that you are fully aware of that too. The gamble wasn't 'will I get anything or not' it was 'will whatever I get be worth what I paid for it?'.

As you said, they could release an update every year that costs £30 and LEP holders get it for free, or they could release one more paid update that introduced a second SRV and say 'Right, that's your lot.' Obviously they're extreme examples and I don't imagine the truth will be close to either, but in both cases you've received all future paid updates.


*Oh and there is no ten year plan. There was a suggestion that the game could be supported for ten years and an explanation that updates would be created and sold after the game's release. 'Supported' in the context of an MMO means the servers are turned on. It does not imply constant development activity and ongoing updates for all of that period.

I mean if I'd had the chance to buy the LEP then yeah my expectation would be that they'd sold it intending perhaps 5 paid updates over the course of its lifetime. However I would remain aware that was my own interpretation of what might be reasonable to expect, not something that was actually based on any hard facts provided by FDev. I wouldn't have had an expectation of being able to cry foul if they only released (for example) two paid updates because they'd never said they would release three, or four, or any other particular number. I'd think it was a bit off for sure, I wouldn't be thinking 'time to spend a significantly greater amount of money on solicitor's fees' though, mainly because it's difficult to see how I'd have a leg to stand on there.

None of which is shilling.

 

[Genus]

That is not a direct quote, you'll have to do better.

Already has. Search LEP and do some research. The first Season Pass roadmap in 2015/early 2106 has been debated at much length over the last three years.

That's probably the worst researched post I've ever read.

 

[Devari]

Of course, supermarkets are sometimes interesting, when you go late at night especially. They have lunatics wandering around in their pyjamas, swapping things on shelves and changing the labels, muttering about how things should seem, other than they are.

You should always tell those people they are right. Every single time.

I try to avoid making eye contact and leave the supermarket as quickly as possible in those cases. Not because I have any issues dealing with individuals displaying disordered behavior, but when I do I prefer to have nursing staff, security and various sedatives that includes a low-potency antipsychotic injection, a benzodiazepine and an anticholinergic agent. Just in case the situation escalates.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

No analogy needed. The LEP was not a vague promise, nor a gamble (unless purchased during Kickstarter).

It was very clear what Frontier intend to provide. (Space Legs and Planetary Landings).

This really doesn't look like "vague" to me. Frontier clearly stated what they "intend" to provide for the money:

https://web.archive.org/web/2014070...erous-cat/elite-dangerous-expansion-pass.html
https://web.archive.org/web/2014062...zaonce.net/elite-dangerous-premium-beta.html/

An offer is an expression of willingness to contract on specified terms, made with the intention that it is to be binding once accepted by the person to whom it is addressed.1 There must be an objective manifestation of intent by the offeror to be bound by the offer if accepted by the other party. Therefore, the offeror will be bound if his words or conduct are such as to induce a reasonable third party observer to believe that he intends to be bound, even if in fact he has no such intention.

http://www.a4id.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/A4ID-english-contract-law-at-a-glance.pdf

So nothing vague about it in any form (aside from time line).

Personally, I don't question Frontier's intent. I believe they will deliver what they have promised. I do however, agree with the people who have said Frontier are taking far too long to deliver. I also completley understand people's frustration.

 

[Devari]

Did you buy an LEP?
Did the LEP specify a number of updates that you would receive during the LEP's lifetime?
Did the LEP specify how long the 'lifetime' is? *

If the answers to those are 'Yes', 'No' and 'No' then you took a gamble simply because you paid a known amount of money for an unknown quantity. Your own post shows that you are fully aware of that too. The gamble wasn't 'will I get anything or not' it was 'will whatever I get be worth what I paid for it?'.

Do you realize how bad you are making FD look in this situation? You might think you're helping "defend" FD here but you really aren't. You're just straight-up admitting that the players who bought the LEP should not have trusted Braben or FD when they made that purchase.

Do you understand how terrible your argument is now?

None of which is shilling.

Just because it isn't technically illegal doesn't mean that it's a good business practice, or that LEP owners somehow have no rights or expectations that need to be fulfilled based on what they purchased.

 

[Genus]

I try to avoid making eye contact and leave the supermarket as quickly as possible in those cases. Not because I have any issues dealing with individuals displaying disordered behavior, but when I do I prefer to have nursing staff, security and various sedatives that includes a low-potency antipsychotic injection, a benzodiazepine and an anticholinergic agent. Just in case the situation escalates.

I like to take selfies with them, getting the fluffy bunny rabbit slippers and furry hats in the frame, then posting them to Instagram.

 

[Devari]

I like to take selfies with them, getting the fluffy bunny rabbit slippers and furry hats in the frame, then posting them to Instagram.

I don't even take selfies with people I like to be around, much less random people at the supermarket. Fortunately I'm just barely too old to be a millennial so I don't feel I'm missing out on anything.

 

[Genus]

Personally, I don't question Frontier's intent. I believe they will deliver what they have promised. I do however, agree with the people who have said Frontier are taking far too long to deliver.

Patience of a saint.

The reasons for those extended timescales have yet to be explained properly, to paying customers. Which I find strange, if not dodgy. With any communication over the topic further to key staff essentially trolling the curious with ill-constructed ambiguities, it's no wonder the lunatics are taking over the asylum.

Further than that Ant, and I'd be interested to hear what you think on this...if Space Legs lands as a function, instead of a well fleshed out, thought through design feature...what will it achieve? Walk around your ships, a few stations and look at the plants? What shall we do tomorrow?

Let's wait another year to do planetary landings, go around a few of the new open air bases, look for rocks under a different coloured sky and maybe leave tracks in the grass. What shall we do next week?

My interest lies, in if anyone actually believes, that under the current design approach, Space Legs and Planetary Landings, will even come close to the now 3 year over-due expectation of their being a game under all this? Once those two "functions", actually get implemented...will they bring balance to the force...or stretch it even thinner over an already massive canvas with no picture on it?

How long before we get stuff to do that even makes them worthwhile having?

It's all well and good talking about these things in the context of "LEP"!...finally...YAAAAY! Premium Content!. But will they even be worth until we have to wait for another 3 or 4 years to be able to have FUN with them?

When I paid for mine, I expected to wait 18 months for stuff I haven't had almost 4 years later. When is that issue going to be more important than "pacifying the user base" by throwing a couple of ships over the wall?

We all know by now, that it's been too long in coming, based on the marketing methods employed by FD. But without changing the ideology in approach, it's just risking making an already frustrating situation...

I want this game to succeed. The possible routes to that happening, become fewer every month that passes.

I don't even take selfies with people I like to be around, much less random people at the supermarket. Fortunately I'm just barely too old to be a millennial so I don't feel I'm missing out on anything.

It's great. And I've been told...incredibly woke.

 

[Devari]

It's great. And I've been told...incredibly woke.

Now you're making me totes jelly over your Instagram selfies. Some days I just can't even. Maybe I need to get a bitmoji or something.

 

[Red Anders]

Do you realize how bad you are making FD look in this situation? You might think you're helping "defend" FD here but you really aren't. You're just straight-up admitting that the players who bought the LEP should not have trusted Braben or FD when they made that purchase.

Do you understand how terrible your argument is now?



Just because it isn't technically illegal doesn't mean that it's a good business practice, or that LEP owners somehow have no rights or expectations that need to be fulfilled based on what they purchased.

Seriously, get it out of your head that everybody on here is either attacking or 'defending' FDev. Simply not spewing abuse at them with every post is not 'defending' them, it's more 'acting like a balanced human being'.

I'm not making (or having) an argument. I made a factual statement. The line in your post I highlighted - did you even read the last paragraph of my post? If you did and came away from it with the impression that I wouldn't think delivering a minimal amount of further paid content was poor business practice I'd suggest skimming it again.

Here's the bit I don't get. You don't argue that I'm wrong in saying that neither the number of updates, nor the time period over which any updates would be delivered, were specified at all by FDev. Then you say that the issue is one of whether people should have trusted Braben. Trusted him about what mate, the two things that you don't dispute he didn't actually say to begin with?

The issue isn't 'attacking' or 'defending' the company who make the game. The issue is that the argument, such as it is, has a hole in its logic and indeed its facts that you could drive a bus through. The promise that you're talking about is one that an imaginary David Braben made in your head, rather than one that the actual David Braben made in a contract. That's just a fact. If it's not, post the contract concerned because it sure as hell doesn't say that in what Ant just posted above. I can see words referring to intentions and to some particular content. I can't see a damn thing which says that any of it would be released by July 2018, or how many updates in total would be included, or what the end of the period during which updates could potentially be delivered will be.

Seriously, if you have all this, just post it and drop the mic. Otherwise, I'd just drop the mic...

Oh and I will say that as a tax officer, the term 'technically illegal' always gives me a chuckle. It's either illegal or it isn't.

 

[Devari]

The reasons for those extended timescales have yet to be explained properly, to paying customers. Which I find strange, if not dodgy. With any communication over the topic further to key staff essentially trolling the curious with ill-constructed ambiguities, it's no wonder the lunatics are taking over the asylum.

Technically they have communicated the reasons, you just need to know where to look. I've found their Annual Reports very enlightening on the topic, mostly because they are written in language designed to appeal to shareholders rather than customers. If you read through those the reasons for the delays in Elite development are very clear, and they generally have something to do with roller coasters, dinosaurs and FD's share price.

 

[Sylveria]

IMO things like LEP, Pre-Order and so forth empower companies to a "carte blanche" attitude with a customer's money.

Caveat Emptor.

For years now people have been giving up their purchasing power by essentially giving them a blank check. Personally I don't shell out a cent until I know for sure what I'm getting for my money, but it's up to each customer to make that decision for themselves.

 

[Jukelo]

Just because it isn't technically illegal doesn't mean that it's a good business practice, or that LEP owners somehow have no rights or expectations that need to be fulfilled based on what they purchased.

You guys absolutely have a reasonable right to expect that Frontier will in all good faith deliver what we all hope they will. But nobody is going to take your threats seriously when you go ballistic and wail and claim Frontier is a bunch of scammers.

Do you realize how bad you are making FD look in this situation? You might think you're helping "defend" FD here but you really aren't. You're just straight-up admitting that the players who bought the LEP should not have trusted Braben or FD when they made that purchase.

Do you understand how terrible your argument is now?

I wont speak for Red Anders, but if you ask me the players shouldn't have trusted FD or DB when they bought their LEPs. Frontier isn't your friend, Frontier is a video game company whose goal is to make money, as much money as possible, at the lowest price possible to maximize profit. Trust should never come into play there. Of course Frontier has a good reputation and DB doesn't strike you as a dishonest person either, and that simply means you can reasonably expect them to not try to screw you over. But ultimately if you cannot bear the thought that possibly they might, you probably shouldn't buy into a scheme that gives you very little recourse.

Anytime you buy into an early access / season pass / kickstarter / other variation on a vague promise, you should plan for the worst and hope for the best, not rely on trust. Trust is for dealing with your family and your SO.

 

[Genus]

Technically they have communicated the reasons, you just need to know where to look. I've found their Annual Reports very enlightening on the topic, mostly because they are written in language designed to appeal to shareholders rather than customers. If you read through those the reasons for the delays in Elite development are very clear, and they generally have something to do with roller coasters, dinosaurs and FD's share price.

I know that....you know that.

Beige Squadron, forget they know that.

And unless I'm crazy, there's a whole FD Team at the forums disposal who should enable everyone...to know better.

 

[Devari]

Seriously, get it out of your head that everybody on here is either attacking or 'defending' FDev.

What exactly would you call it when players try to claim that it's the "fault" of LEP owners for buying the LEP? Or that they somehow took a "gamble" by making the purchase? That is utterly incomprehensible from any perspective other than someone who is desperately trying to defend FD at all costs.

Simply not spewing abuse at them with every post is not 'defending' them, it's more 'acting like a balanced human being'.

So now customers who have expectation for what they purchased form FD are "spewing abuse" at them?

Strange, that also sounds like defending FD at all costs even when the position you're taking is not logically defensible.

I'm not making (or having) an argument. I made a factual statement. The line in your post I highlighted - did you even read the last paragraph of my post? If you did and came away from it with the impression that I wouldn't think delivering a minimal amount of further paid content was poor business practice I'd suggest skimming it again.

I read your entire post and it makes no sense. You are basically defending the practice of selling a LEP and then delivering an amount of paid content that is only worth a fraction of the cost of that LEP, as if a reasonable consumer making that purchase somehow wouldn't be entitled to an expectation of proper value for what they bought.

Here's the bit I don't get. You don't argue that I'm wrong in saying that neither the number of updates, nor the time period over which any updates would be delivered, were specified at all by FDev. Then you say that the issue is one of whether people should have trusted Braben. Trusted him about what mate, the two things that you don't dispute he didn't actually say to begin with?

The issue isn't 'attacking' or 'defending' the company who make the game. The issue is that the argument, such as it is, has a hole in its logic and indeed its facts that you could drive a bus through. The promise that you're talking about is one that an imaginary David Braben made in your head, rather than one that the actual David Braben made in a contract. That's just a fact. If it's not, post the contract concerned because it sure as hell doesn't say that in what Ant just posted above. I can see words referring to intentions and to some particular content. I can't see a damn thing which says that any of it would be released by July 2018, or how many updates in total would be included, or what the end of the period during which updates could potentially be delivered will be.

Seriously, if you have all this, just post it and drop the mic. Otherwise, I'd just drop the mic...

If you think that a business needs to give all of that detailed timeline information in advance when selling a product in order for the customer to have a good faith expectation of certain content being delivered by the publisher, you are setting up an impossible standard that is quite simply not remotely reasonable. They sold and LEP at the cost of 4X what the individual Horizons expansion was priced at. That tells anyone who can do basic math that at a bare minimum there should be four Horizons-quality expansions, otherwise the price point of the LEP makes zero sense. There should probably be at least five expansions to give the pass any actual value beyond simply buying the expansions indivdualy, but without at least four expansions the pass is literally a waste of money. Same issue with the timeline for developing the content. Most MMOs or online games have an active development lifetime of around 5 years, even if they are kept running for longer than that. It was an entirely reasonable, and very much implied, that there would be regular expansions on approximately an annual basis. Otherwise delivering those four expansions would take longer than the useful lifetime of the game. Any customer would have reasonably arrived at those conclusions based on the way the LEP was sold, described and priced.

Sorry but you are trying to make a ridiculously pedantic argument that LEP owners should have somehow expected FD to cheat them in some way and it was their "fault" for trusting in FD to sell and develop a product in a reasonable timeframe and to a reasonable quality standard.

 

[Genus]

I wont speak for Red Anders, but if you ask me the players shouldn't have trusted FD or DB when they bought their LEPs. Frontier isn't your friend, Frontier is a video game company whose goal is to make money, as much money as possible, at the lowest price possible to maximize profit. Trust should never come into play there. Of course Frontier has a good reputation and DB doesn't strike you as a dishonest person either, but that simply means you can reasonably expect them to not try to screw you over, but ultimately if you cannot bear the thought that possibly they might, you probably shouldn't buy into a scheme that gives you very little recourse.

Totally agree. I went with my emotional response to the institution of Elite which has been with me for decades, fell for the marketing, did not consider the current design capability would not be improved, and got mugged off.

That's the truth of it for me. Which is actually something I can easily bear.

Now I'm stuck playing a game for it's entire lifecycle, where the developer has to earn my respect and seemingly doesn't feel like engaging until updates are released. If indeed those updates can be considered of value.

That's the bit that sinks my boat. Less of the shadow marketing and PR nonsense (FFF, the rare vague post by key staff) and more quality content with meat on it's bones.

In other words, less talk and more.....

 

[Ozram]

Fortunately my blood pressure is awesome and I can eat all the sodium I want.

You lucky !

 

[Devari]

You guys absolutely have a reasonable right to expect that Frontier will in all good faith deliver what we all hope they will. But nobody is going to take your threats seriously when you go ballistic and wail and claim Frontier is a bunch of scammers.

Who's making any "threats"? There has been no "threats" I've seen so far, just customers upset at how FD has treated LEP owners. I'm not even just referring here to the lack of content, but to the lack of communication or explanation for the changes that were made to their development model. I don't even own an LEP and I am still surprised at how FD has treated LEP owners, just on principle.

I wont speak for Red Anders, but if you ask me the players shouldn't have trusted FD or DB when they bought their LEPs. Frontier isn't your friend, Frontier is a video game company whose goal is to make money, as much money as possible, at the lowest price possible to maximize profit. Trust should never come into play there. Of course Frontier has a good reputation and DB doesn't strike you as a dishonest person either, and that simply means you can reasonably expect them to not try to screw you over. But ultimately if you cannot bear the thought that possibly they might, you probably shouldn't buy into a scheme that gives you very little recourse.

So you're suggesting that players should have assumed that Braben and FD are on par with EA in terms of their marketing strategies? It seems to me that the entire point of making a game with the development model that was described for Elite was to put the emphasis on game development first and foremost rather than simply being a vehicle to maximize shareholder profits and deliver a minimum viable product to customers.

Anytime you buy into an early access / season pass / kickstarter / other variation on a vague promise, you should plan for the worst and hope for the best, not rely on trust. Trust is for dealing with your family and your SO.

You realize that if that were the case then Elite would never have been built, right? If no one trusted Braben the game would have never been made. Are you suggesting that Elite should not have existed then? Because if we used your logic no one would have bought into Elite at the kickstarter stage.

You also realize that when the LEP was sold in 2015 Elite was no longer "early access"? It was a fully launched retail game at that point and there should have been little to no "risk" that Braben wasn't going to follow through with proper development of the Elite franchise, especially given how well FD has been doing financially since Elite has been launched.

 

[Stealthie]

No it really isn't. When you make a purchase there is the legitimate expectation on both sides of that transaction that someone is not trying to cheat you.

What you are saying is like suggesting if I give someone counterfeit money to make a purchase, it's their fault for accepting it as payment. It's not my fault for handing them a counterfeit bill, after all, I never specifically told them it was money or that it had any particular value, did I? They just assumed that themselves, so it's really their own fault?

You do realize how ridiculous that claim is, right?

It isn't ridiculous though.

What's ridiculous is trying to compare something as vague, open-ended and subjective as a kickstarter's intentions to something where a person HAS legally recognised rights.
There are laws to ensure food is sold as described, just as there are laws prohibiting the use of counterfeit currency.
There are no laws to ensure a game dev' delivers specific milestones within a specifc timeframe unless they have contractually agreed to do so.

People who bought LEP's for ED did so on the basis of their own expectations, based on the credibility of FDev's sales pitch and the people behind the company.

You can moan all you want if you think your expectations haven't been met - and you're perfectly entitled to do so - but it IS ridiculous to try and draw a comparison between this situation and one where a consumer's rights ARE recognised in law.

 

[Devari]

You lucky !

I am, because almost everything that tastes good has ridiculous amounts of sodium in it.