Where is the paid 'content' LEP holder get for 'free'

[Red Anders]

Maybe that's because those silly semantic arguments that some people have been trying to make are so nonsensical they are refuted even by FD's official publications.

You know, the part where they refer to upcoming LEP content as "promised content", right in their Annual Report?

It's always endlessly amusing where ridiculous semantic arguments based on "well they didn't actually promise to develop content" are directly refuted by an official statement from FD.

I'll tell you what the problem you're having is mate. You're trying so hard to undertake some kind of forensic analysis of my posts in an increasingly desperate attempt to portray them as saying something they don't, that you're constantly missing the context in which the comments are made.

I didn't say that they haven't promised any further content at all, ever. It would be pretty stupid if I did since the entire damn thread was ultimately prompted by Zac's comment that there would be further 'premium content' (which I think we all interpret as meaning 'sold separately') which would be available to LEP holders at no additional cost and released within the Beyond period.

The comment I made about 'intentions' being interpreted as 'promises' related to this:

We intend to continue expanding the game with both new content and features. A good example of this is planetary landings. We have an ambitious goal for landings to include new gameplay and a rich variety of worlds to explore. To achieve our goal we want planets to come to life. We also want to add leaving the ships so you can explore space stations or board enemy vessels, or even just to look around your own. We intend to release small, free updates after launch but major expansions including rich new features will be charged for unless you have bought the expansion pass, or are one of the kickstarter backers at the appropriate tier.

That's directly from the Expansion Pass store blurb, as linked by Ant here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...get-for-free?p=6840962&viewfull=1#post6840962

You know, the one that says LEP holders will get all future expansions and that FDev will continue to develop the game (neither condition having yet been breached since the game is still being developed and LEP holders have received all paid for updates so far, with nothing to indicate that either situation is in the process of changing) but does not provide any quantitative information whatsoever regarding:

• The total number of expansions that will eventually be released
• The anticipated lifetime of the game over which any updates will be released
• Literally any of the other yardsticks or benchmarks that you are applying

as I've already pointed out so many times that I'm genuinely sick of typing it now.

Please understand, I'm not saying that the fact the word used is 'intentions' and not 'promises' means it would be totally cool for them to just flip LEP holders the bird now and say screw you guys, we're done. No reasonable person would think that.

However expectations and intentions can end up being very different to outcomes, yet with no actual lack of good faith whatsoever. A lack of good faith would require the original statement to be intentionally misleading, i.e. that there never really was any intention to do those things to begin with. There are any number of situations that could lead to an entirely honest intention at the time the intention was stated not actually being delivered.

Regardless of any other considerations though, my post was about the words used on the screen in selling the pass. I just posted them and I trust you'll note that what I said was entirely accurate.

I'm still having something of a hard time with someone who expects me to believe he has a legal background constantly referring to 'ridiculous semantic arguments' since the precise wording of contractual agreements is absolutely critical to determining whether they have been breached or not. Crytek are going to be in court at some point in a dispute with another game developer, you might be aware of it. The entire case hinges on the provisions of various contractual agreements. Tell me, how far do you think either side there would get if their highly paid legal teams stood up in front of the judge and said 'actually, we don't think there's any point in indulging in these ridiculous semantic arguments'? Can you see that being a winning strategy?

Your argument is essentially 'I thought X was going to happen and because it didn't it's a rip-off'. That's fine, really - be as upset as you like. Just stop trying to blame other people for your own expectations.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Maybe that's because those silly semantic arguments that some people have been trying to make are so nonsensical they are refuted even by FD's official publications.

You know, the part where they refer to upcoming LEP content as "promised content", right in their Annual Report?

It's always endlessly amusing where ridiculous semantic arguments based on "well they didn't actually promise to develop content" are directly refuted by an official statement from FD.

Your problem is you're far too ridged in your thinking.

You don't seem to accept that development of the game could possibly continue past the 2021 date stated in the report.

You also fail to accept that while mathematically speaking 180/4 is 45 it doesn't take into account the potential of other non expansion content that might be added to the game for LEP owners and also what will be the actual time frame of development.

 

[Stealthie]

That doesn't make any sense.

He's right, again.

"This game sucks donkey balls"
"Well, erm, have a bunch of free cosmetic stuff for it"
"Ooooh, terrific"

[where is it]

As paradoxes go, that's right up there with "Earning credits is really dull unless I'm earning heaps of them at once".

 

[StuartGT]

I think StuartGT clarified earlier that they said after beyond. So I'm expecting it around late 2018 or early 2019 and an announcement before then, unless something goes wrong.

That's not what I said.

 

[Kaocraft]

You'll need to show your working out there.



Given that they've been releasing the beyond stuff on schedule (AFAIK), doesn't that mean the plan is ticking along smoothly so the paid content will be along after beyond which is meant to finish around the end of the year.

They said it would show up in 2018 before the end of Beyond tho.

 

[StuartGT]

No, I honestly don't think FD will produce two or three Horizons-equivalent paid updates within the last 3 years of remaining development time between the end of 2018 and the end of 2021. If they had produced Horizons to an acceptable quality standard and released it as planned in 1 year instead of 2 years? Then I might believe that were achievable for FD.

Considering your opinion on Horizons, FDev releasing "two or three Horizons-equivalent paid updates" before the end of 2021 should be a doddle. Especially as the next "Premium Content" will arrive "in 2018" - the one to be announced at Gamescom btw

 

[Riverside]

Thank you for verifying that. I just spent the last half hour or so looking at Frontier Expo 2017 footage which is where I thought I'd seen that announced but couldn't find it. Must have been some other public event.

It isn't from any event, it's from a thread on this forum. It's been quoted & linked to several times in this thread already:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/382948-quot-Beyond-quot-free-for-Horizon-owners-LEP-musings?p=6020972#post6020972

I'm not sure

You aren't sure.

None of us are, that's the point of the thread. I don't want to guess, and after getting on for three years I'm not massively interested in anyone else's guesses.

There is no need for this clutter in every LEP thread, nutter conspiracy theories aside fundamentally there is a strong desire to know what's going on for completely reasonable reasons.

The number of hours someone has played has no connection to the value of the game not yet released. This and many other arguments have been made countless times, while FDev breathe a sigh of relief that once more they have an excuse to not engage with us rowdy lot.

If someone wants to know, they can e-mail Fdev. If they want to share that info it's up to them, or maybe FDev can put something out publicly. What they want to know could just as easily be 'how to I get a refund for product not yet delivered?' as much as what the product not yet delivered is likely to be and when it's likely to be delivered.

 

[DeathStroke]

arrive "in 2018" - the one to be announced at Gamescom btw

You keep repeating this, do you have an actual link to an actual FD employee saying this?

 

[StuartGT]

I never said the game will "end" in 2021, only that active development of paid content that is relevant to the LEP will end at that time according to FD's Annual Report. They can of course continue to run the servers, which are a trivial expense given the game is run with P2P architecture, and they can also provide minor free updates or bug fixes. I also expect that they will continue their sale of cosmetic items and may even develop some new cosmetic content which is also not included in the LEP. I would not however expect any other development of any paid content or new seasons beyond the end of 2021 according to what FD has stated in their Annual Report.

Translation: "Development will end late 2021 because I said so, despite Elite just having had its best year ever, but here's a large list of caveats that I don't count as 'ending development' just in case I'm proven wrong yet again"

I completely cleared my ignore list and have already had to put several people back on the list. That is based entirely on encountering semantic nonsense and trolling behavior instead of an actual discussion on the topic. I regularly clear my ignore list every so often but I doubt I am missing any "good discussion" from those individuals in the meantime.

Quoting the succinctly stated:

Ignore lists are for those who can't handle being challenged, it's weak and I will personally never use that function. Never have.

Or if you prefer: "I like to ignore comments that show how wrong I am. Educated people disagreeing with me gives me headaches, so I prefer to roleplay an ostrich. The voices inside my head keep me company anyway, and mostly agree with me."

You keep repeating this, do you have an actual link to an actual FD employee saying this?

Nope, because I don't need one. If you'd followed FDev's announcements throughout the past 5 years you'd understand.

 

[DeathStroke]

Nope, because I don't need one.

 

[StuartGT]

Best meme ever [big grin]

And perfect too:

• "Can I have Premium Content info before Gamescom?"
• Hahahahaha!
• "Please?"
• Hahahahaha!

As Peter Parker learned: be patient

 

[znôrt]

999 is coming

 

[Thatchinho]

Maybe that's because those silly semantic arguments that some people have been trying to make are so nonsensical they are refuted even by FD's official publications.

You know, the part where they refer to upcoming LEP content as "promised content", right in their Annual Report?

It's always endlessly amusing where ridiculous semantic arguments based on "well they didn't actually promise to develop content" are directly refuted by an official statement from FD.

Ok, this is getting silly.

The report does not say what you are telling everyone it does.

The 'promised content' is specifically to do with Horizons, not the LEP in general. This is not a matter of semantics.

 

[Montague]

It isn't from any event, it's from a thread on this forum. It's been quoted & linked to several times in this thread already:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...izon-owners-LEP-musings?p=6020972#post6020972

Well, it's a 67+ page thread and I must have missed it, just as others missed my quote back on page 12 from the 2017 Annual Report regarding deferred income from LEP sales. I must have seen Zac's post last October after viewing the footage of the Beyond announcement and conflated the two. Regardless, thanks for the verification.

This thread has become a long convoluted mess with detours into semantics and other silly things and darn near everything that needs to be said has been said...except for some official clarification from FD regarding the status of potential paid content coming out this year.

 

[Devari]

I'll tell you what the problem you're having is mate. You're trying so hard to undertake some kind of forensic analysis of my posts in an increasingly desperate attempt to portray them as saying something they don't, that you're constantly missing the context in which the comments are made.

Sorry but your "context" is ridiculous semantics like trying to claim that "intend" is somehow different than "promise". Remember that part? Which was completely refuted by the statement in FD"s annual report that does, in fact, refer to "promised content"?

That's directly from the Expansion Pass store blurb

That same sales page also referred to some very specific content being delivered as part of the LEP, including space legs, boarding actions and landing on inhabited planets. That is the absolute minimum promised content that FD will need to develop. That is "promised content" to use the exact wording from FD's Annual Report. We also know from FD's annual report that their timeline to deliver the LEP content is by the end of 2021. That gives FD only 3 years to deliver that content once Beyond is finished at the end of 2018. That is information from FD's own sales pages and published reports so there is really nothing you can say to refute it or dismiss it.

I'm still having something of a hard time with someone who expects me to believe he has a legal background constantly referring to 'ridiculous semantic arguments' since the precise wording of contractual agreements is absolutely critical to determining whether they have been breached or not.

That's the problem here. You are trying to use a purely semantic argument that is devoid of any real meaning. As an essential part of my job I deal with medicolegal issues that rely on both precise wording and are also held to a very real standard of intent in terms of how that is being applied. For example, if I am treating a patient who has been certified under the Mental Health Act for psychiatric reasons it's not enough for me to simply argue some technicality about what I might personally consider to be a "delusion" based entirely on some semantic argument. Even if that argument might have theoretical technical merit the review panel is going to question it in detail and I have to defend it not only on a theoretical but also a practical basis. If I have applied a purely semantic argument that is devoid of reasonable meaning and intent then the certification will be overturned. I'm referring here to very significant medicolegal issues here that relate to literally suspending a patient's rights against unlawful detention and confinement in a medical facility. I need to make a medicolegal argument that both follows the precise wording used in legislation and also has both clinical and practical merit as part of my job.

I honestly have no use or respect for a purely semantic argument because the standard I am required to apply in my own work requires arguments that have a far higher basis that goes beyond simple technicalities or semantics. It sounds like your experience with legal arguments is not held to that same standard, and if that is the case, I understand why you are trying to make such an argument but it is not anywhere near the standard that my own work is routinely held to.

 

[Stealthie]

This thread has become a long convoluted mess with detours into semantics and other silly things and darn near everything that needs to be said has been said...except for some official clarification from FD regarding the status of potential paid content coming out this year.

S'funny, I was just about to say something similar.

People need to ask themselves who their intended audience for a thread is.
If Devari does just want to argue for days on end, that's great I suppose, but it's not going to achieve much.

The best way to approach a thread like this, really, is just to post up an opinion and leave it at that.
If it turns out that 90% of people agree with you, at least you've established that you share a commonly held opinion.
If it turns out the majority of people disagree with you, you should probably accept that too.

As it is, Devari, alone, accounts for nearly 20% of the 1,000 posts in this thread, more than double the post of the next most frequent poster and more than 4 times as many as other interested parties.

All that does is pollute the message a thread like this should be sending and allows the dev's to dismiss it as yet another poopshow.

 

[DeathStroke]

Best meme ever [big grin]

And perfect too:

• "Can I have Premium Content info before Gamescom?"
• Hahahahaha!
• "Please?"
• Hahahahaha!

As Peter Parker learned: be patient

You better hope FD doesn't take your advice, they would lose customers in droves if they started laughing at them for asking for information.

 

[StuartGT]

You better hope FD doesn't take your advice, they would lose customers in droves if they started laughing at them for asking for information.

FDev staff regularly post memes... are you even part of this community?

 

[Devari]

Your problem is you're far too ridged in your thinking.

You don't seem to accept that development of the game could possibly continue past the 2021 date stated in the report.

You are trying very hard here to not accept what FD has stated about how long they will be actively developing new paid content for the game. It's not an issue of whether it will be exactly at the end of 2021, or sometime before or after this. It is an issue that you are refusing to accept the end of 2021 as the time FD has stated as the end of the game's development lifetime. They can of course keep the servers running and sell cosmetic items beyond this date, and I fully expect them to do so, but I do not expect them to develop paid game content or expansions beyond this date unless they state otherwise in a future Annual Report.

You also fail to accept that while mathematically speaking 180/4 is 45 it doesn't take into account the potential of other non expansion content that might be added to the game for LEP owners and also what will be the actual time frame of development.

No matter how you look at it we are talking 3 years of Horizons-equivalent expansions. They struggled to get 1 year of Horizons finished in 2 years and it was delivered to a markedly inferior standard than originally described. How do you think FD is going to get 3X that amount of paid content done in the next few years?

 

[StevieG]

So to recap:

Premium content announcement at gamescom in 7 weeks time.
Premium content free for LEP CMDRs & confirmed delivery in 2018.
Premium content £40/$50 for everyone else - not LEP.
Premium content will contain new engineers offering dirty dives giving 250% increase based in Colonia.
Premium content will include atmospheres - lighting - rain - wind.
Premium content will include space legs - as first shown in the recent game engine trailer.

Have I missed anything?