"Do they play their own game?!"

[Stealthie]

With regards the guardian site relogging.

It could have been solved using a method they already have in game.

When you try to scan a datapoint you've already recently scanned, even after relogging in many instances, (In fact, in some cases, for days afterwards) it simply says "Data point already scanned" part way through scanning them.

This'd mean you'd need to move to various different sites to gain more blueprints.

If I worked for FDev I'd be seriously reluctant to implement something like this when there's no way for somebody to actually set about finding the sites using in-game tools.
You are, basically, saying that these things should just be mega-rare random drops which a player has a one-in-a-million chance of finding and they should be okay with that.

When there's an in-game lexicon that is updated in real-time, as players make discoveries (in much the same way the galmap is when players make new discoveries), then sure. Have at it.
With that in place, players will (presumably) be able to use the lexicon to find the locations of every known Guardian site and travel to them to collect stuff.

Also, to be completely clear, updating the lexicon every couple of months, or whatever, won't cut it.
It MUST be updated in real-time, exactly as the galmap is, in order to remove the need for 3rd-party sites, so that FDev can assert that it's reasonable to expect players to be able to locate stuff.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Thanks for this Will, pretty awesome response here.

Although I will come back with one tiny point to clarify. I don't doubt that you guys want to represent us players as best you can to the development team and the issues, and us telling you about the issues we have is a really effective means for that, but one of the sentiments echoed in this thread is the feeling that you (as the community team) can only really and truly understand the frustrations of the playerbase if you are experiencing the same issues yourself in the game. So for example, you might spend a few hours playing ED at home on your personal account searching for mats, and come into the office the next morning and say "hey guys, I spend about 3 hours last night on my personal account searching for High-Grade Emissions USS and only one spawned in that time, I've heard the community complaining about this, do you think we can look at the spawn rates for that, because now I see just how irritating that can be?"

Sigh.

This just indicates how and why people get 'frustrated'. People play game very differently. For you it is frustrating because you are dead set on finding one particular thing and one thing only. But game doesn't know that and it doesn't care about that.

It is not that it invalidates your experience, it is just might be very different from others - including developers.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Id just like to say how impressed ive been with Will as a community manager for elite on all the livestreams he's been on.

You can see he's getting into the game as much as we do, so much respect for taking the game seriously instead of celebrating a lack of skill (ie, not playing because elite isn't that hard). I thought the hard hat mentality died off in the 80's.

 

[Drelthar]

If I worked for FDev I'd be seriously reluctant to implement something like this when there's no way for somebody to actually set about finding the sites using in-game tools.
You are, basically, saying that these things should just be mega-rare random drops which a player has a one-in-a-million chance of finding and they should be okay with that.

When there's an in-game lexicon that is updated in real-time, as players make discoveries (in much the same way the galmap is when players make new discoveries), then sure. Have at it.
With that in place, players will (presumably) be able to use the lexicon to find the locations of every known Guardian site and travel to them to collect stuff.

Also, to be completely clear, updating the lexicon every couple of months, or whatever, won't cut it.
It MUST be updated in real-time, exactly as the galmap is, in order to remove the need for 3rd-party sites, so that FDev can assert that it's reasonable to expect players to be able to locate stuff.

Well, there is though.

Simpy use the galaxy map filter for Civilisations: Guardian. Then travel to those sites.

(There is a caveat here. For some reason, Guardian sites show up in the system for me, once I've done an advanced scan. I don't need to manually find them on the planet surface, now, I'm unsure why. I did land in Meene at one point, and I think Ram Tah may have modified my scanner systems?)

There was also a galnet article with Ram Tah telling people to check out three specific sites (which are within the nearest guardian bubble, which then using the filter you can see a load more of)

Plus the Ram Tah mission(s) which send you to the right area of the galaxy.

I've only looked up one site outside of the game.

And I have:

Gauss cannons
Turreted large plasma chargers
Guardian hull reinforcements
Guardian Module reinforcements
Gusdian FSD booster

I did relog, before the changes to the number of required blueprints, that gained me the gauss cannons only.

The rest was done after the update, without relogging, travelling to different sites using in game tools. (Except for one module site, because, yeah, that was getting annoying, being as there are seemingly so few of those comparitively to weapon sites, and sites with no data point)

 

[lostagain]

This makes me think of - Homework.
Yes, give them Homework! Lots of it.

 

[Stealthie]

Well, there is though.

Simpy use the galaxy map filter for Civilisations: Guardian. Then travel to those sites.

Fair comment.

Must admit, I haven't even looked at any of the new features of the galmap since 3.0 because it's been causing CTDs roughly half the time I've used it.
It's just been a case of clenching my cheeks, pressing the button, plotting a course and then exiting it as quickly as possible.
It seems to be fixed, for me, now though. [up]

Does the galmap show all the Guardian systems or just the ones that have been discovered?
If it's the former, that actually seems a bit "cheap" to me.

 

[Drelthar]

Does the galmap show all the Guardian systems or just the ones that have been discovered?
If it's the former, that actually seems a bit "cheap" to me.

I have no idea, and to an extent, I agree with you, but on the other hand, we have found a lot of them, and it could easily be explained by Ram Tah developing some kind of guardian emission detector, similar to the Eagle Eye systems Aegis created.

I mean, they haven't done that in the lore, but they could by just chucking up a galnet article.

For instance, I assume that the eagle eye project is why you can now search for Thargoid civilisation locations on the galmap. Perhaps eagle eye even detects the guardian sites too.

Until FD introduce some nice mechanics to detect things (Q4 looks like it) then I'd just be super annoyed with the flying along one to one scale planets pixel hunting system we've had till now though.

But, yes, I would very much like it if a commander finds a location, and if they sell the data to universal cartographics (It should highlight the fact it has such sites in cartographics when selling, so commanders can intentially keep it secret if they wanted) it then updates a database, which the gal map then references to see if such sites are in their galactic records.

That would be super cool.

 

[rOmiLaYu]

Hello there!

Yes, we do play the game. Myself included. I haven't had the pleasure to acquire and fly every ship on my personal account at the moment (currently in a Type-10 working my way to an Anaconda!) We also play Elite every week on our Twitch channel... drop by and if you're lucky, you might see me accidentially boosting inside a starport. Whoops!

Although, I think what the OP (and some of you who've contributed to the discussion) really wants to address is the question on whether or not we can effectively understand the experiences our players (you) have with the game, so we (Frontier) can best represent their (your) needs and suggestions to the development team.

While I'm still new to the game and the community, and while I don't yet know everything about the game, all of us on the community team are very much committed to ensuring we can represent you and your experiences with the game as best possible. If you want to reach out to me and tell me directly of any difficulties you've faced, or improvements you think can be made, you can find me primarily on Discord (Will Flanagan#3755) and Twitter.

Unfortunately, I don't yet know everything, so there may be some cases where I'll ask questions to better clarify your feedback. Hope you understand!

I didn't start this thread to elicit a response from anyone on the team...more so it was to help articulate why I had come to the point that I had and how I felt that might inform the present situation. I do appreciate your response and as has already been said, it was very fair. Especially in light of the fact that it has already been discussed how difficult it becomes for the team to respond because of community reaction/response. Cheers, Will...looking forward to the next livestream!

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Well, there is though.

Simpy use the galaxy map filter for Civilisations: Guardian. Then travel to those sites.

There's numerous issues with that in-game approach :
- GALnet does not have a search Function nor Filters, so it's essentially useless as a source or Archived Information for Analysis
- the Guardian Civilization Map Filters only work within a small bubble zoomed in, so there's you scrolling and panning through potentially random areas of the Galaxy Map
- the existing GalMap Filter does not show any details, leaving it to guesswork or Trial&Error if i.e. a Guardian System contains Guardian Ruins or Structures
- the existing GalMap Filters do not properly include all known and documented Systems, meaning they're vastly incomplete and apparently also don't update after a CMDR discovers a new Site and sells the Data to UC

All that makes the in-game tools extremely difficult and inefficient to use.
One can only hope that the Encyclopedia Galactica will be properly implemented so that it takes all Information Sources into account while building a personal Database with powerful Filters and directly linked into i.e. the GalMap.
Then we'd finally reach the era of proper Information Acquisition, Handling and Brokering. We'd arrive again in the Information age of the forgotten 20th Century basically

 

[iFred]

What about money- and goods/commodities-injection into the "economy" due to that totally fubared instancing-BGS-burp?

 

[Frenotx]

I think it's not just a bit out of order to criticize people because you think they don't take their work home with them enough, I think it's a very entitled and unrealistic viewpoint to expect them to do it.

At a guess I'd say some of them play it for leisure, some of them don't, some are paid to do it and quite a few are so sick of the sight of games ED or otherwise by the time they go home it's the last thing they'd consider doing.

If the devs can't / wont play the actual game (which is fine, since they need the off-work time to actually be off-work), then they need to hire and pay a few play testers. Many things have pointed to a painful disconnect between the devs and the reality of how the game plays, and they need focused insight from someone who actually plays to resolve these issues. If the devs don't have time to actually play the game, then make it someone's / a few peoples' JOB to do so. Ideally people with a good mind for game design, a deep understanding of all the game's systems, and is well in-touch with the playerbase at large.

 

[BL1P]

Well, there is though.

Simpy use the galaxy map filter for Civilisations: Guardian. Then travel to those sites.

(There is a caveat here. For some reason, Guardian sites show up in the system for me, once I've done an advanced scan. I don't need to manually find them on the planet surface, now, I'm unsure why. I did land in Meene at one point, and I think Ram Tah may have modified my scanner systems?)

There was also a galnet article with Ram Tah telling people to check out three specific sites (which are within the nearest guardian bubble, which then using the filter you can see a load more of)

Plus the Ram Tah mission(s) which send you to the right area of the galaxy.

I've only looked up one site outside of the game.

And I have:

Gauss cannons
Turreted large plasma chargers
Guardian hull reinforcements
Guardian Module reinforcements
Gusdian FSD booster

I did relog, before the changes to the number of required blueprints, that gained me the gauss cannons only.

The rest was done after the update, without relogging, travelling to different sites using in game tools. (Except for one module site, because, yeah, that was getting annoying, being as there are seemingly so few of those comparitively to weapon sites, and sites with no data point)

I came back to the game after the Galnet articles.

From in game I :-
Never knew there were Guardian things to find.
Never knew the ram tah guy was doing new missions.

Once I found out about Guardian stuff it was from external information.
Ram tah giving missions was also from external information.
I went to ram tam diddly ma dam and got no information on any sites or of missions from him.
I found a site using the galmap.
Then flew there and then found out what to do from outside information.
Then used outside information on what to do with the junk I had found.

At no point, except for the Galmap guardian locations being marked, could I use ingame information as it just is not present now.

 

[rOmiLaYu]

So for example, you might spend a few hours playing ED at home on your personal account searching for mats, and come into the office the next morning and say "hey guys, I spend about 3 hours last night on my personal account searching for High-Grade Emissions USS and only one spawned in that time, I've heard the community complaining about this, do you think we can look at the spawn rates for that, because now I see just how irritating that can be?"

And being in the actual office and bringing that to the dev team's attention is a lot different and carries more weight than a bunch of randoms on the internet complaining about it.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JesusRocks1988 again.

 

[sedilbur]

I do relog on guardian sites and this is not really a game breaking for me.

The number of mats have been reduced for the blueprint. This is really cool as I ran few guardian site instances and enjoyed collecting mats.

I still have a problem with the epsilon data scan but well...relog is the fastest solution for me.

Of course, it could be better if each sites has its own data to collect. So that, you can better farm the needed data. But anyway. I live with it.

I even plan to try the Meene mission ... it was a little bit difficult to find them and I heard about them on net. So that, I will give them a try.

The jump fest is a little bit annoying for me (I don't like exploration and FSD charging) but with the new guardian stuff and engineers...it's better than before. I still decline the goid fight because of the locked "area" and I don't want to move away from my home system.

However, I don't think frontier is playing end game like Engineer and Guardian site very much. I am the first one to be frustrated when they use cheat code to earn money or mats during live stream.

So I am quite happy they do earn their money "legit".

High grade signal is also something very frustrating in this game. Even if database on web exists where you can find which filter you need to apply to the galaxy map, I am more than often unlikely sad when HGS is not coming.

In end game mechanic, this is like the RNG in loot when you finish to kill a boss and you hope you will receive the piece you dream to have. And which no one in your team wants it also but elite requires less working just more RNG.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

Sigh.

This just indicates how and why people get 'frustrated'. People play game very differently. For you it is frustrating because you are dead set on finding one particular thing and one thing only. But game doesn't know that and it doesn't care about that.

It is not that it invalidates your experience, it is just might be very different from others - including developers.

I understand your point - although I was only using that as an example of things I've seen even in this very thread (someone mentioned that they're confident FD staff members don't spend time looking for HGEs). My own personal experience with searching for HGEs has always been quite prompt, funnily enough. I'm not the type of player to just sit there for hours on end looking for one type of material. If i can't find a HGE source in a reasonable time I'll move on to searching for a different mat so I get to keep playing the game.

Probably likely that FD staff play that kind of way as well at home, but on the odd occasion when I haven't found what I'm looking for in a reasonable time and had to move on, I do get a glimpse into the world of those spend hours searching to no avail, and it makes me glad I don't spend that long on it. Maybe in these kind of circumstances it would afford such a glimpse for FD staff too.

There are things that do frustrate me in the game when collecting materials, but thankfully searching for HGEs is not one of them. My source of frustration can occasionally come through planetary prospecting, and thankfully that looks to be getting fixed in Q4 with the new exploration mechanics (if we can use the probes to find material hotspots, that is - here's hoping).

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Hello there!

Yes, we do play the game. Myself included. I haven't had the pleasure to acquire and fly every ship on my personal account at the moment (currently in a Type-10 working my way to an Anaconda!) We also play Elite every week on our Twitch channel... drop by and if you're lucky, you might see me accidentially boosting inside a starport. Whoops!

Although, I think what the OP (and some of you who've contributed to the discussion) really wants to address is the question on whether or not we can effectively understand the experiences our players (you) have with the game, so we (Frontier) can best represent their (your) needs and suggestions to the development team.

While I'm still new to the game and the community, and while I don't yet know everything about the game, all of us on the community team are very much committed to ensuring we can represent you and your experiences with the game as best possible. If you want to reach out to me and tell me directly of any difficulties you've faced, or improvements you think can be made, you can find me primarily on Discord (Will Flanagan#3755) and Twitter.

Unfortunately, I don't yet know everything, so there may be some cases where I'll ask questions to better clarify your feedback. Hope you understand!

The thing i would love most would be a live stream dedicated to elite Dangerous from then to now.

looking back at the DDF and covering the features there..... and comparing to what is in the game.

chatting about whether features which are different now from them are still relevant, or if FD feel they are better / more in line with their vision now and so very low priority or whether or not they are being actively worked on or just proved to be impractical in the games structure

once DDF "hot topics" (which are easy enough to figure out, just take the top 10 from DDA) perhaps take a 10 most requested features to discuss from the forums.

in the build up to the "event" we have a thread where we put down what we would like devs to talk about (no interacting with chat on live stream)... then before the event someone (that may be you @Will Flanagan) collate what you think are the suggestions and put them in a poll, then everyone votes given say 3 votes each, .... then at the end of it you have your top 10 hot topics from the community for the devs to talk about.

so 10 from the DDF and 10 from the forums....

wrapped up with David B talking about his end game vision of the game..... not giving concrete dates or anything but just to reinforce and confirm to everyone that that really "hard stuff" that DB chatted about in KS videos is STILL a high priority for the future.

hell it could be done over an entire day, possibly the day of down time when servers go offline for 3.3. (3.3 is the big one i think isnt it?)

 

[znôrt]

kids, don't trust drug dealers who don't do their own drugs!

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Sigh.

This just indicates how and why people get 'frustrated'. People play game very differently. For you it is frustrating because you are dead set on finding one particular thing and one thing only. But game doesn't know that and it doesn't care about that.

It is not that it invalidates your experience, it is just might be very different from others - including developers.

When it comes to HGE materials it isn't a problem of gameplay styles, it's a game design problem.

No amount of casual gameplay will result in somebody finding "Imperial Shielding" while casually flying around Federation or Alliance or independent space. IF a player wants to modify something that requires that material, the player has to search for it.

The problem is that certain materials can only be found in HGEs (or traded at a material trader for a really terrible "price") and that those materials compete with each other (chance to get X or Y, not chance to get X and chance to get Y*) - resulting in a very low chance of getting "neutral" materials in an Empire or Federation (or Alliance) system.


The way FDev fixed the issue with chemical manipulators shows, that they care about such things and that they are listening to the community. (I think they will fix the HGE "problem" sooner or later.)


*) it might actually be the later but the chance of getting Y is in that case extremely low.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Sigh.

This just indicates how and why people get 'frustrated'. People play game very differently. For you it is frustrating because you are dead set on finding one particular thing and one thing only. But game doesn't know that and it doesn't care about that.

It is not that it invalidates your experience, it is just might be very different from others - including developers.

Look, in the case of HGE's, it's bad design through and through. It provides zero gameplay beyond materials that can't be acquired in any other ways.
Keep in mind that some system states are rather rare (like quarantine), making getting pharma insulators casually a bit problematic.*
If HGE's where used in missions or tied to actionable way of getting them (instead of "waiting/immersion timer" "gameplay") they would be fine. But as for now, they are not.

It's an Skinner box in the purest sense. Pull the lever till rewards get delivered with random chance. RNG Lasagna at it's finest. It does not even pretend to be a usefull part of some larger unit of gameplay.

*Although some big ones do drop pharma insulators on some occasions, it's rare and only 3 units.


Internal or NDA'ed external testers would *maybe* help bridge the disconnect, but then again, this only works if Devs do listen / are interested in such feedback.
Ivory tower (game) design tend to fall flat on its face.

 

[zimms]

If the game tells me to get this one particular item, then I should be able to find that one particular item. Preferably without getting frustrated in the process.