News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[Ozric]

Looks interesting. I'm going to reserve my judgement until I can see some of these things in action, because a lot of it is so open to interpretation that it's pointless trying to work out how it's going to function. A few questions:

Are the 3 tiers of Discovery Scanner still staying? Will the range restrictions apply to the new scanner interface?

If there is a star/planet that is a few thousand Ls away from you that is surrounded by bodies, how will the new system allow you to work out what is there without flying over to them? Surely the signals will all overlap with each other as they will be, from your viewpoint, so close that there's no way of separating the signals?

USSs. Where does that leave you if you don't have and Discovery Scanner on board? Can you still find them by stumbling upon them in SC? Will scanning the Nav Beacon reveal the locations of them in the Nav Panel regardless of their distance to you?


As we have been denied the Focused Feedback style forum for Exploration, does that mean that the entire thing has been locked down, and none of the suggestions that have been made in the last ~4 years have been taken into account, or we don't have the opportunity to suggest them? I realise that with the delay to this announcement it's too late for us to suggest things anyway realistically. But what about things like visual representations of Comets? Or different spectrum filters for the cockpit? Will we be getting more SRV types.

 

[marx]

I decided to sleep on it before gathering up my thoughts. So, first off, I think that not including a video to show off the new system was a rather bad idea. It certainly would have answered a lot of questions - some of which have been answered by the devs since, and some which haven't. Hopefully, they'll soon release some footage of things in action, so we can tell how much time various things will take. How long to scan a body now, how long to scan a system with 20, 50, 100 bodies, how long to tell what kinds of bodies there might be in a system, and so on. If balanced well, this could have the potential to make full(er) system scans faster than we currently do, and give us all better pictures of the systems; if done bad, it'll just add a big time sink.
Basically, once the beta hits, we'll have to time things if it'll be the latter, so that feedback will be more than just "omg this is so bad".

There is, however, one crucial change that doesn't hinge on mechanical balance: system layouts, body configurations.
Based on what has been said so far, we should be able to tell what types of bodies there are in a system, but not be able to tell the system layout, the configuration of the bodies, without scanning them. Right now, the ADS honk tells us the entire system layout and the specific bodies' types (via visual and audio cues). The new system would tell us the body types present in the system, not the layout - without body scanning, that is. Losing the ability to tell the system layout at a glance means losing quite a lot of information that we used to have. To solve that, I'd suggest that the initial honk would reveal at least gray globes, but I'd really rather it just worked as it does now, and the detailed information and mapping would both come from the new mechanics. But even the empty globes would be better, as you could see the layout of the system, and if something looks interesting, then you can try scanning those.

Other than these, I like everything else that has been revealed so far. There are still a lot of as-yet-untouched parts which would tie in well here, mostly about what we'll find out there. There have been mentions about galactic regions, space-based phenomena, and so on: how exploration will change depends quite a lot on those too.

After all, it has been mentioned that these changes appear to be geared towards players new(er) to exploration. Personally, I see nothing wrong with that. But if there's more of the same that we can find, then I think both them and veterans alike will quickly get tired if exploring systems will slow down considerably. We do know that much of the galaxy is uninteresting, as it should be: the alternative is NMS-levels of galactic litter, where every planet is positively strewn with generic stuff. Personally, I'd rather not map planets far away from inhabited space and see dozens of crashed ships everywhere, especially in systems with plenty of bodies. (Although I could actually see this happening just outside the edge of the bubble.) Making it more time-consuming to find the more interesting systems (not just bodies!) would be quite counter-productive, and could sink the stated goals of the update.

In closing, let's assume the worst-case scenario, and note one thing: even if it all turns out bad, then fixing things shouldn't be too hard. Certainly a lot easier than fixing PowerPlay, for example. The underlying new mechanics appear to be solid, and certainly more than the minimal mechanics we had for years, both for space and especially for planetary exploration. We'll see how they turn out in the beta, and whether we'll have to flood them with feedback or if they'll actually get things right the first time.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I just don't get why FDev can't be given the benefit of doubt how this plays out, and what the initial electro-magnetic scanner will reveal. Who knows, it may reveal stuff you would not by checking the system map.If OA had made a video about exactly the same mechanics, people would flip out and say this is exactly what FDev should do.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't?

If the experience will be at the very least more seamless without the loading screen to the system map, it's a win.
Plus, I got tired of exploration in its current form anyway, so I can't lose.

 

[Commander_Brucitor]

I do like every crew member can use the discovery scanner. But does that you need to have multiple discovery scanner module's or will one be useable by all? Also will your multi crew buddies discoveries show up on your screen automatically once they've discovered something?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

won't this change slow exploration down? You will now have to FIND the planet that the interesting thing is on before you can look for the interesting thing. Seems like nobody will find anything unless they're specifically looking for it....and there isnt a way to quickly jump into a system and see if it has already been fully discovered without wasting time in it.

What about planets and stars that are very very far away from the main star? If these "gravitational waves" get weaker as you go farther out what happenes when you have a moon-sized body 1 million LS from the main star? Does that mean you'll have to detect the star that's 1M LS away, fly to it, then scan for more objects??

 

[znôrt]

I just don't get why FDev can't be given the benefit of doubt

although my advice is to just wait & see, i do get why confidence in frontier's capability and direction might be at an all time low now ...

 

[SW grrr]

AWWWWWSOME

sounds awesome!

How cool is that keep up the great work Dev Team guys

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

won't this change slow exploration down? You will now have to FIND the planet that the interesting thing is on before you can look for the interesting thing. Seems like nobody will find anything unless they're specifically looking for it....and there isnt a way to quickly jump into a system and see if it has already been fully discovered without wasting time in it.

It should speed that up considerably. Interesting things on planets can only be found by eyeballing them from above, and then you need pot luck if you have the correct planet, so you may have to do this on multiple planets before finding something. With the new system you can do the scan and find the planets without moving from where you are and if there is something interesting on the surface it will ping up (it just wont give you the exact location). Now you travel to the planet that has that POI, launch your probes which will then pinpoint all the POI's on the planet.

That should be much faster then what we currently have, which is nothing.

What about planets and stars that are very very far away from the main star? If these "gravitational waves" get weaker as you go farther out what happenes when you have a moon-sized body 1 million LS from the main star? Does that mean you'll have to detect the star that's 1M LS away, fly to it, then scan for more objects??

Don't know. We will have to see how it works.

 

[rootsrat]

Are the 3 tiers of Discovery Scanner still staying? Will the range restrictions apply to the new scanner interface?

USSs. Where does that leave you if you don't have and Discovery Scanner on board? Can you still find them by stumbling upon them in SC? Will scanning the Nav Beacon reveal the locations of them in the Nav Panel regardless of their distance to you?

These are the answers from devleoper posts from yesterday (I collated them for my Polish forums and they are translated by Google, so apologies for any weird wording). You will find answers to both your questions there:

• The synthesis components of the probes are not yet known.
• At the moment (12/09) they plan 200-300 probes on the ship.
• An important role will be played by mastering the probability of playing the probe around the planet.
• The first "ping" will reveal only the star - and only it will appear on the system map. The map will fill up gradually as you discover more celestial bodies.
• There will be new content in the USS (new situations / scenarios)
• In addition to the new system - USS will also appear randomly during our stay in the system, as now
• They are considering removing Basic and Intermediate scanners and leaving only one Disco Scanner
• It will be possible to map planets on which you can not land (!)
• DSS is now a module that can only be used in SC
• The exact range from which it will work etc. not yet determined
• Map mapping will give us exact permanent POI locations. POIs random (broken probes, ships, skimmer aggregates, etc.) will not be shown and you will still have to explore them during the flight over the planet.
• For now, they do not plan connected racks for scanners (aka 2 scanners in one slot on the ship)
• The new system in theory is to bring increased earnings for exploration in a similar period of time. So there will be a better Cr / h ratio from exploration.
• DSS will still be able to be engineered - modification will give us an enlarged probe tray (they are stored like ammo in DSS)
• The locations of outposts and orbital stations will be shown immediately after entering the system, even if we have not yet discovered anything else in it.
• Distribution of energy in the system should be an indication of what types of planets we find in the system. This is another skill to train.
• The USS, although they will now be semi-persistent, are still generated separately for each player. However, you can still use wing beacons or low wake to jump there.
• The USS in the system will be several after jumping into it. After expiration, new ones will be generated.

 

[Spacegamejunkie]

I see some very good and positive changes here, However as usual it will come with the Time Sink Grinds that always kill the Improvements.
Looks to me like this Game wants to Suck the Life out of my most precious resource, "LIFE TIME", which can not be replaced.

So you want to take Hours to do what now takes a couple of seconds, that is Insane.

FDev, please get off the Grind Mentality, and make things easier to progress, NOT add more Time Walls, and Extra things to string out, Playing this Game.

Why can't the Scanners just do their job?
Why do we need the addition of Probes, other than to add more unnecessary "Fiddling", Rather than just Reducing the Time it takes to Find Something.

Just think of the HOURS it takes to do anything in this Game.
Sorry but it feels like sinking into the Quicksand of Time Sink Grind, is all we Ever get from "Improvements and Patches"

 

[Sirius Agent]

So you still don't give me a good reason to explore, just make it more bizzare and more time sinking, for exactly the same effect that I have now. But it will be not less boring for sure. I don't have strength to laugh anymore...

 

[Jenner]

I see some very good and positive changes here, However as usual it will come with the Time Sink Grinds that always kill the Improvements.
Looks to me like this Game wants to Suck the Life out of my most precious resource, "LIFE TIME", which can not be replaced.

So you want to take Hours to do what now takes a couple of seconds, that is Insane.

FDev, please get off the Grind Mentality, and make things easier to progress, NOT add more Time Walls, and Extra things to string out, Playing this Game.

Why can't the Scanners just do their job?
Why do we need the addition of Probes, other than to add more unnecessary "Fiddling", Rather than just Reducing the Time it takes to Find Something.

Just think of the HOURS it takes to do anything in this Game.
Sorry but it feels like sinking into the Quicksand of Time Sink Grind, is all we Ever get from "Improvements and Patches"

I'm all for reducing 'grind', but I don't think we share the same definition of 'grind'.

To me grind is mindless, repetitive action that gains you minute progress and is not compelling in and of itself.

Exploration right now is a grind. It's bare-bones.

Yes, you can cover a ton of LY quickly, honking your way across the galaxy, but there is not a lot 'there.'

Adding actual (we hope) compelling gameplay to exploration, even if it slows down the # system/hr you can do, will improve the exploration experience imho. It reduces grind.

If you only have fun exploring a ton of systems per hour, then yeah, this update probably won't make you happy. If like me you want to spend that hour really enjoying the act of even exploring ONE system.... then it's definitely a positive change.

 

[WR3ND]

This is what worries me too, they've changed a well established system and now there's the possibility we've traded the current grind for a slower one that looks cooler.

Flying around in supercruise looks cooler to me than staring at an additional system map and playing connect the dots or whatever.

 

[Ashnak]

That's where /redacted/ is revealed. It's a major addition of /redacted/ to the game and is super exciting!

Spoiler

I may be full of /redacted/ though.

Does that mean that using /redacted/ instead of /redacted/ will now be /redacted/ ?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

It should speed that up considerably. Interesting things on planets can only be found by eyeballing them from above, and then you need pot luck if you have the correct planet, so you may have to do this on multiple planets before finding something. With the new system you can do the scan and find the planets without moving from where you are and if there is something interesting on the surface it will ping up (it just wont give you the exact location). Now you travel to the planet that has that POI, launch your probes which will then pinpoint all the POI's on the planet.

That should be much faster then what we currently have, which is nothing.

but it will only allow people who are specifically looking for something to find it. A lot of discoveries are made accidentally, and that will be totally gone since you have to stop and scan for all the planets to even see if they're there.

Now...what happens when you're just blowing through space trying to find some undiscovered systems? You can't just honk and see what's there....you'll have to stop and detect every body in a system even to just find out if they've already been discovered or mapped.

I would propose that the traditional honk still shows you the entire system and mapped bodies, as long as someone else has already discovered it. There should be some sort of quick indicator that a system has already been cataloged so as not to waste players' time finding out if a system is worth spending time in.

Of course that leaves stars with no orbiting bodies as the bane of an explorer's existence...always not knowing if the system hasn't been scanned or if there's just nothing in it.

 

[Gypsy12]

Surprisingly!

Im happy with all this. It makes sense and is the way I woulda done it first time round. Hat's off to FD. Eyeballing exploration pings is just perfect. As long as that balance between complexity and simplicity is maintained. Newbies should have a rough idea, and experts able to fine tune their sense of if a system is worth it or not. But not only that - what they can get out of it. Experts should be able to glean if there is hidden stuff.

FD have a great opportunity here to reduce grind. Perhaps a system might contain a stash of 50 datamined wake exceptions... somewhere... Or exquisite focus crystals. That would seriously provide some oomph to going out looking. What im saying here is that FD should bring the DDS to the level, and then more so - in order to track tech. Say an extra layer to scanning for tech for example.

My extra question to FD is this - do you plan on bringing Mineralogy to planets? Deposits or so? Now that would be amazingly awesome.


Love,


Gyp.

 

[Chaz]

First update in ages that I've been genuinely excited about!

All looks good. I hope there'll be some new things for us to find on planets with the probes, like those big shipwrecks that we saw oh so long ago during the initial Horizons reveals, that then never made it into the game. I also hope that's how we'll find the surface installation scan missions too, as the current system where they just pop up in front of your face is rather silly to say the least.

 

[WR3ND]

I'd much prefer additional discover options using alternative methods than replacing the fun and practical ones now, like honking and flying around in supercruise. That's a huge part of the fun of playing the game for me, and I don't want stuff getting in the way of that experience and mucking it up.

More stuff to explorer and more ways to explore it; not removing the ways that we currently have and hiding them behind mini-games!

I want to be flying around in space.

 

[bnrgator]

While the idea sounds cool, I think in general it will make discovering interesting planets (like ELW's) far more tedious and time consuming.

A better approach would be:
Have honk display all planets as today.
For planets in visual range allow them to be scanned as today by simply pointing ship.
For distant planets let them be scanned using the new method (avoids the flight time).
Add the new mapping which is a nice addition.

I'm just trying to picture how searching for ELW's would work with the new system. After a honk, you then have to manually discover each planet and tune the system to see what type of planet? How long does that take? How long does it take to reject a system from the possibility of having an ELW? Using the current system, it takes a REALLY long time to find one with long droughts (dozens of systems) of finding nothing.

I hope that they really play test this a lot before release. I'm skeptical.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

but it will only allow people who are specifically looking for something to find it. A lot of discoveries are made accidentally, and that will be totally gone since you have to stop and scan for all the planets to even see if they're there.

Now...what happens when you're just blowing through space trying to find some undiscovered systems? You can't just honk and see what's there....you'll have to stop and detect every body in a system even to just find out if they've already been discovered or mapped.

I would propose that the traditional honk still shows you the entire system and mapped bodies, as long as someone else has already discovered it. There should be some sort of quick indicator that a system has already been cataloged so as not to waste players' time finding out if a system is worth spending time in.

Of course that leaves stars with no orbiting bodies as the bane of an explorer's existence...always not knowing if the system hasn't been scanned or if there's just nothing in it.

That depends on how long the honk and scan takes (remember to do a scan (which now includes the old DSS scan you don't have to fly to the place). If its a few minutes then I see no issues. As to whether someone else has scanned it or not I fail to see how relevant that is unless you have bought the data already. If not, then to you it is a virgin system. As to naming rights you will see from the main star if someone has named that already.

And just because someone else has found the interesting POI, does that mean that is isn't important for us to find it either.