News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal
No. You must have missed the context of that sentence. He's not talking about distance — he's talking about type signature. Let's see that part again, without the unfortunate cutting you just did:
“The scale” is the energy signature of the system, from low-energy rocks to high-energy gas giants and stars. “This range” is the part of “the scale” you're selecting with your filter. The “range” is not a distance, but an upper and lower bound of energy values.
If you're going to make suggestions about what other people may have read or skipped, it helps if you don't ignore large parts of meaning-bearing context in the text you're asking them to read.
No. By keeping the ADS honk, I want to be sure that there are actual pages in the book, not just a painted wooden block. I'll say it one more time: what mystery is being destroyed by the ability to make decisions? It keeps being brought up but never actually explained or defined.
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I agree with you here. We have yet to see what the planetside half of the equation will be, or what kind of signals sources will exist in deep space. I work from the assumption that Frontier generates content based on Eyeballs. Right now there aren't enough eyeballs to justify content creation enough to fill 400 billion star systems with sufficiently varied content. Maybe that's not even possible. But if the new mechanic gets enough people interested in Exploration again, then the Eyeballs will very likely lead to new content.
The text is ambiguous but they cleared it up in the livestream, and they are actually talking about both distance and energy level. I don't recall the time stamp, but they confirmed on the live stream that you'll be able to focus the distance and remove any signals not at that set distance. It's not necessary to set the distance to resolve objects, but if you correctly guess correctly then you are rewarded by having a clean signal. Hence if you already know the distance, the process of "guessing" the energy becomes trivialized.
The numbers currently all say "-1" but in a later build they will be correctly numbered. Not sure if there is a limit to the zoom, a sliding scale, or whether it can be switched to a logarithmic scale.
You mean you want to know that it isn't just ice balls, or some other object you find worthless? You will know that from the energy signal. You just need to apply a small amount of mental energy to get the same ADS info, in a similar amount of time. Is that really asking too much?
Even better. This means you can correlate two data sources to remove the guesswork and instead deduce. You can choose. You have an actual puzzle at your hand. You have something that [gasp!] almost starts to approach actual gameplay.
e: In fact, if anything it sounds like the distance selection in the minigame is the design flaw in all of this. Get rid of that, and make the player judge the proper adjustment for the signal they're looking for based on the observed range — fail to compensate and you select the wrong energy range and you'll be looking for the wrong target.
…or why not by, say, the system map, since it very concisely presents all the information that go into that judgement — a lot of which cannot fit or be presented as an energy signal? In exchange for this increased agency in picking your exploration hunting ground, you can now apply a small amount of mental energy to the subsequent scanning process, adding additional agency to that part of the proceeding as well rather than just have it be a rote matter of following UI prompts.
By the way, I can't help noticing that no mystery was explained or defined. I'm very quickly drawing closer to the conclusion that there is none.
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The energy distribution can't tell you anything about the system's physical layout or structure, and this is the information which many explorers will miss the most from the 3.3 honk. Lots of explorers use the system's structure to determine if they want to stay or go. If 3.3 goes live as Frontier described it then the only way to get the full layout will be to fully wave scan every single object in the system. What takes seconds to determine now will take many minutes in 3.3, possible a great many minutes.
Thus, people want a compromise with the honk, because some explorers don't want to completely lose the way they play the game.
The time stamp is 46 minutes (and a few seconds).
So yes, I agree that the distance should not be shown on any reveal (should there be one). I do however still feel that a generic reveal will enable players to see whether they want to devote more time to a given system for whatever reasons they have for exploring. Could be searching for ELW, could be interesting planetary formations, could be based upon whether a system has already been discovered.
Personally I think once this determination has been made, the new scanning mechanics will be fine. They are more interactive and can still provide the mental engagement of locating specific bodies and scanning them.
I just don't think the right way of determining whether a body is worth scanning is by having to scan it first.
Wow, just when it looked like this thread was starting to lose steam .
Anyway, regardless of what route they choose to take, one thing I want the Dev. team to consider is giving us two controllers for the Discovery Scanner-the primary controller gives us the Omni-directional honk, whereas the secondary controller would give us a less intrusive active scan-one which can be omni or uni-directional, depending on whether you have an object targeted. The secondary scanner could also work in both N-Space & Super-Cruise.
In Omni-directional mode, the scanner could work in a similar fashion to an ECM, allowing the player to decide how far from the ship they wish to scan, & can either reveal all info on objects covered by the scan, or even reveal directional & distance info about objects outside of the range of the scan (this could be important for finding planetary PoI's or USS's within N-Space.
In Uni-directional mode, the mechanic would be identical to that used for Kill Warrant Scanners & Manifest Scanners.
My reason for wanting this is to help make all aspects of scanning less passive, & more active, regardless of whether we have the Emission or the Insta-Honk-or something in between-approach going forward.
.Anyway, regardless of what route they choose to take, one thing I want the Dev. team to consider is giving us two controllers for the Discovery Scanner-the primary controller gives us the Omni-directional honk, whereas the secondary controller would give us a less intrusive active scan-one which can be omni or uni-directional, depending on whether you have an object targeted. The secondary scanner could also work in both N-Space & Super-Cruise.
In Omni-directional mode, the scanner could work in a similar fashion to an ECM, allowing the player to decide how far from the ship they wish to scan, & can either reveal all info on objects covered by the scan, or even reveal directional & distance info about objects outside of the range of the scan (this could be important for finding planetary PoI's or USS's within N-Space.
In Uni-directional mode, the mechanic would be identical to that used for Kill Warrant Scanners & Manifest Scanners.
My reason for wanting this is to help make all aspects of scanning less passive, & more active, regardless of whether we have the Emission or the Insta-Honk-or something in between-approach going forward.
I just don't think the right way of determining whether a body is worth scanning is by having to scan it first.
That right there is the issue with Frontier's proposal in a nutshell. Making the honk worthless means the player has zero information on the system until they actually scan the bodies in it with the FSS. The process needs to have a carrot dangling first in order to convince the player to want to use the FSS.
The honk needs to be nerfed, just not all the way into the Stone Age like the proposal describes.
I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that this is where the majority of commentators on this thread are arriving at. Something that retains the best elements of the mechanic proposed in the OP, whilst retaining some aspects of the current mechanic. The exploration bug from the 2.2 Beta, I believe, gives us the best kicking off point for such a hybrid system.....as most every sensible poster here has suggested (or words to that effect).
To reiterate my own view-Honk would give a detailed scan of stellar objects at a range of under X light-seconds; a low resolution scan (blackened spheres; probabilities of different planet types & Emission/Gravity info) at a range of between X & Y Light-seconds, & Emission/Gravity info only at a range of greater than Y light seconds. The values of X & Y would be impacted by a combo of Scanner Quality (Basic, Intermediate & Advanced), Engineering effects & the size of the stellar object relative to an Earth Sized Planet (so a gas giant will be more likely to get a low resolution scan, at a range of Y light-seconds, than a rocky world half the size of Earth). The honk should also reveal the approximate *locations*-in space-but not distances, using circles displayed on your HUD (size of circles would be determined by a combination of the size/distance of the object from the scanning ship-so a gas giant 100,000 light-seconds away might have a circle the same size as a terrestrial world less than 100 light seconds away).
The scanner properties would also impact the ranges & angles at which active-or passive-detailed scans of stellar objects could occur.
As I said, I believe this approach could retain the best of both worlds, providing a big enough carrot for players who are only looking for specific types of planets, whilst still leaving the Emission/Gravity mechanic for players who want to retain *all* the mystery until the last possible moment.
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234 pages... I'm so late to the party. I haven't read all, but I've read the OP (three times) and all other FDev posts, plus cherry-picked some of my favourite posters (and not so favourite ).
Firstly, FDev, it's great that you are updating Exploration. Thank you.
I want to give feedback, but before that I need to ask questions, and before those questions I need to point out an issue.
FDev, in your OP and many of your replies, you've used the term 'stellar bodies' incorrectly. I suggest you edit those posts, replacing 'stellar bodies' with 'system bodies' or 'astronomical bodies' or even 'nonstellar bodies', depending on the context. Anyway, here are some I saw (4 in the OP btw):
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/447043-Chapter-Four-Exploration-Reveal
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Four-Exploration-Reveal?p=7010032#post7010032
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Four-Exploration-Reveal?p=7010229#post7010229
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Four-Exploration-Reveal?p=7010479#post7010479
Note: Apologies if this has already been stated, but since I still see the issue I'm posting anyway.
).Firstly, FDev, it's great that you are updating Exploration. Thank you.
I want to give feedback, but before that I need to ask questions, and before those questions I need to point out an issue.
FDev, in your OP and many of your replies, you've used the term 'stellar bodies' incorrectly. I suggest you edit those posts, replacing 'stellar bodies' with 'system bodies' or 'astronomical bodies' or even 'nonstellar bodies', depending on the context. Anyway, here are some I saw (4 in the OP btw):
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/447043-Chapter-Four-Exploration-Reveal
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Four-Exploration-Reveal?p=7010032#post7010032
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Four-Exploration-Reveal?p=7010229#post7010229
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Four-Exploration-Reveal?p=7010479#post7010479
Note: Apologies if this has already been stated, but since I still see the issue I'm posting anyway.
The motivators for exploration right now are
- credits
- gameplay tokens eg mats etc
- tags
- screenshots & videos
The method of scanning isn't motivating in itself. Those discoveries absolutely have to feed back into the game or bgs or even just the map using any of the suggestions here and elsewhere or some of Frontier's own ideas from the early designs.
This was recognised as a gap in the gameplay when the game was in early dev.
I'm speaking in a strictly technical sense about those motivations, I understand there are those who just enjoy finding what's out there. I'm asking Frontier to bring some meaning and value to those discoveries, ping them up on the map at the very least, make them persist or decay or deplete.
It's non trivial core development, but that's what I thought they were doing over this last year.
Thanks, and yes if you leave the distances off, or change the distance filter to some other characteristic like surface Temperature or Surface Brightness (~Radius2 x Temperature4) then yes it's certainly possible to have a map reveal and still retain some mystery.
I just don't think the right way of determining whether a body is worth scanning is by having to scan it first.
Ok, let me reverse that: how can you know if a planet was worth scanning before you scanned it? Answer: because you already scanned it.
The current ADS scan cheapens the DSS into a mere formality. Sure it gives us more CR, name, a zoomable view, and a materials list, but that isn't really worth much to a well prepared explorer because the galaxy is too safe to require credits or materials, or to bask in a risk-free name tag. And the zoomable map is obviated by the requirement to get in so close that you might as well venture the last Ls to get a view far superior to the zoomable map. So currently the ADS is really just a DSS in disguise, and the DSS is just added busy work with no meaningful purpose.
Frontier realized this which is why they rolled the ADS and DSS into a single scanner mechanic the Discovery Scanner, and gave the DSS a new role of launching probes.
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The 'black body' comprise doesn't address the two issues I have with the new mechanic:
1. It doesn't tell me if there's something in the system that I want to scan
2. Scanning is done whilst parked at the star, not by flying around the system
Ziljian's solution of an option to fit either the old scanners or the new ones is the only one I've seen that allows me to explore in a manner that I find enjoyable.
Just a question, but if the energy signal tells you what kind of bodies are in the system, doesn't this tell you whether there are bodies in the system that you'll want to scan?
Also from the only images I could find of the probe scanner interface (artist rendition not screenshot), it does appear that we'll still need to fly to bodies that are interesting enough to probe. So there will likely still be flying, it just won't be necessary for the prelim screening done via scanning juicy signal types.
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It's not just a question of what is there - it also depends on where. As an example, I'll always scan a water world orbiting a gas giant, but I won't always do a water world by itself. There's a decision to be made about what I scan in every system and it isn't based on credits. I can't make that decision from just the signal scanner - at least not in a few seconds.
Regarding the flying part - I'm only occasionally in the mood to use the SRV and I see no point in firing probes at a planet that I can't land on, so that gameplay doesn't appeal to me much (though I'm glad FDev are doing something to help players who DO want that.
The main reason, though, is that systems have 'character' right now - the layout, distance between bodies, binary planets, trinary planets (my holy grail is trinary ELWs). Scanning from the main star makes every system 'flat'. Binaries become meaningless, complex layouts become an irrelevance. Close orbiting neutron stars? Who cares?
Unless your plan is to surface scan every single body in a system (have fun synthesizing probes every third jump) then every single system becomes the same as all the others.
For me, that takes all the enjoyment out of exploration.
If you slide the range filter, you'll be able to see what objects are at which ranges. For example: a gas giant with moons will be easily filterable because the gas giant and it's moons will all be at the same range from the sun. If there is a water world orbiting the gas giant, you'll see it via the range filter because the 2 signals will be superimposed at the same distance. It may not be as ridiculously obvious as looking at a system map, but that info will be there BEFORE you begin scanning.
None of that info is lost. You might have missed it from the screen shots, but if you have two unresolved neutron stars, then the signal for the neutron stars will have twice the amplitude in the energy distribution signal (really need to start shortening that to EDS or something!). If you combine that with the distance filter, then a trinary star system with 2 binary neutrons will appear as a double tall signal at a filtered distance. If they are far apart, then the signal will be half of the binary neutron signal when you filter for that distance.
The point is, the new system may not hit you over the head with special orbits, or special pairings, but that info is very much going to be included in the signal.
Notice how the amplitude of the signal is cut in half once a planet signal is resolved and removed from the system's energy distribution signal
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But if you could tell that there was a water world somewhere in the system, thanks to the energy signature you recognize, you'd at least be curious to know where it is in the system - enough to scan the potential entities (which doesn't require those probes) until you find them, then move on, before you waste time on probes.
The scan to determine planet types are NOT requiring probes, unless I'm mistaken. Isn't this how it's supposed to go:
Honk - Initial Energy Reading (from which we can tell if an interesting signal type exists)
Distant Scan- Don't need to move, can determine planet types - equivalent of DDS
Close Up Probe - Need to get closer, requires probes. Will be choosier about which to probe based on planet type, possible anomaly readings, etc.
I never suggested that the information is lost, just that the mechanism for discovering it becomes twiddling knobs and sliders on a map, rather than flying around the system.
The process of gathering information about a system becomes more long-winded and then when it's done, I have no reason to actually FLY anywhere.
My gameplay becomes nothing more than loading screen followed by playing a minigame, over and over again.
Let's be frank, the current "information gathering" involves hitting a single button to explode a lootbox and then running around and picking up the coins.
I jest, but I am kinda serious too. This ^^^ is what we have been calling "exploration" for the past ~4 years. What you call "twiddling knobs" is actually a significant gameplay upgrade to lootbox smashing and coin grabbing.
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