News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

Apologies to the moderators for this off topic and probably slightly hypocritical post here.

But could everybody please stop arguing with each other about who said what and what they actually meant to say and just post something new
or at least directly to the point of the original post.

Please it would be nice to actually have time left to play the game after catching up on the few bits of the forum I can cope with.
 
I know this is gonna make people angry, but I really hope they don't listen to the noise in the forum this time. The OP (with some wrinkles ironed out, like Horizons and base game interaction for the probes) is for me, truly the system I was hoping for back during Beta before I discovered the ADS which was a huge disappointment at the time.

I hope they move forward with something as close to the proposal in the OP as possible. I know a lot of you disagree with me, but that's how I feel.
 

Scytale

Banned
I hope FDevs will keep the ADS as it is and add any new mechanics they feel like for the Cmdrs who enjoy to spend time playing mini games and shooting whatever is moving . Be it stellar bodies.
And, please, add what this game lacks the most: discoverable content. Just learn how to tell a story.(Or better, call back the story tellers you put aside)
 
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Just getting the system body count, target-able locations, and orbital lines with the honk is alright with me. While not ideal, that's at least enough to give me some idea if I want to spend some more time checking out a system.

Of course, being able to fly out to worlds to "discover" them must still be an option as well, in my opinion.
 
From OP (sorry, on mobile... Quoting big pages difficult)
Replace flying time with gameplay: We want to reduce the amount of time you have to spend flying to a planet just to discover it. The only time we want you to fly to a planet is because you want to visit it as there’s something there you want to see or do. Ultimately that will make exploring planetary bodies and getting first discoveries in a system quicker and more engaging at the same time.


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This is the false premise.
We don't today travel to the planet to discover it. We discover it with the honk.
We fly to the planet to get more info. *this* part is well served by the proposed change.
 

Scytale

Banned
Again, it's the original exploration design which needs a total change. We need real Exploration Ships. Large ships with dozens of scientific hardware, each one providing some kind of data. Current ships, with limited scanning abilities would then be some sort of Scouts. Scouts discover systems and Scientific Explo ships do the data recollection and analysis job.
Could make emerge gameplay based on communication between Cmdrs, Player Factions, etc. Even wings of Scouts and Explo ships exploring together.
I don't consider credible that a Sidey can gather and process as much explo info as a Conda...
 
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Again, it's the original exploration design which needs a total change. We need real Exploration Ships. Large ships with dozens of scientific hardware, each one providing some kind of data. Current ships, with limited scanning abilities would then be some sort of Scouts. Scouts discover systems and Scientific Explo ships do the data recollection and analysis job.
Could make emerge gameplay based on communication between Cmdrs, Player Factions, etc. Even wings of Scouts and Explo ships exploring together.
I don't consider credible that a Sidey can gather and process as much explo info as a Conda...

Even speaking as someone who prefers to go exploring in small ships, yes, I think this makes some sense, especially for additional exploration content beyond what we currently have in the game.

I think this could be done through having exploration specific module slot types on "exploration" ships.

...

One of my ships is even specifically dedicated as an exploration "scout" ship for world surface reconnaissance, literally; I named it The Scout.

xVOlyJS.jpg
 
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Scytale

Banned
I also just love exploring in my trusty AspX. It's a question of fine balancing what data a "small" ship is supposed to be able to collect and analyse. It might, for instance, be able to detect material boulders but not entire deposits. Or determine if a body is a candidate to be an ELW/WW/HMC but nothing more precise. Possibilities are infinite.
One of my ships is even specifically dedicated as an exploration "scout" ship for world surface reconnaissance, literally; I named it The Scout.

Same thing here, but ICourier ;)
 
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Just getting the system body count, target-able locations, and orbital lines with the honk is alright with me. While not ideal, that's at least enough to give me some idea if I want to spend some more time checking out a system.

Of course, being able to fly out to worlds to "discover" them must still be an option as well, in my opinion.

A point on which we seem to agree. The choice to fly towards a body (even if we don't know precisely what that body is) & scan it from a closer range is one I have always supported. Hence my "HUD revealing presence of all gravitational anomalies in the system as hollow circles" idea.

I do want the choice to *actively* scan stellar bodies in this scenario, not merely wait for a passive scan to automatically kick in.
 
I have read the proposal in the OP and a number (not all sorry) or the threads, comments and conversations in this thread. i could summarise my feelings as thus.

The current mechanics for "exploration" are bare bones and so any attention FD show are a good sign. The proposal described is laking detail to understand how it would be an improvement, the fact a proposal is being discussed is positive. However, the various pros and cons around the proposal suggest FD are proposing a solution to a situation that they may not understand the outcome us players are looking for. Conversely as players we are not providing a great set of requirements we would like to see delivered.

For FD to deliver any solution we as players need to agree a few points, otherwise there is nothing to change.

In the elite galaxy, are the current mechanics, tools and processes providing the best possible gaming experience? Unless the everyone playing the game is Yes, then something needs to change.

Putting aside how it might change for now, what are we looking for?

The proposal as presented looks to try and provide deeper mechanisms for interrogating the systems and bodies we explore, although possibly they introduce more "grind" to what we are already familiar with. I raised the question in a separate thread some time ago when considering what a better exploration mechanic might look like (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...vs-Discovery?p=6062404&viewfull=1#post6062404) its not an easy problem to solve for a number of reasons.

Some things I would like to see considered:
- What would happen if exploration and its associated data was abstracted from the extrinsic driver of credits? Currently any change to the mechanics of exploring will be weighed against the changes in credits per hour that exploring brings by a portion of the player base.
- How can any new mechanic maintain the current levels of serendipitous discovery we can achieve given the results of the ASD infinite "honk"
- Could the grades of discovery scanner be used to reveal differing levels of detail in exploration? Maybe the basic discovery scanner exposes the current level of detail at the honk, but to get material information, first discovered tag, detailed surface maps we need to invest in higher cost modules.
- Could the idea of the energy signal be used as a filter to what is displayed by the "honk". Given I have a basic discovery scanner when i Honk a system I only see system bodies of a specific energy profile revealed in the system map. I f I want to see more I need to go to the new view/mini game.
- Could some smart graphical effect be bought to bear on the system map, when honking with a basic scanner the bodies revealed in the system map are low fidelity/blurry until i enter the new scanning view to resolve greater detail.
- Currently the honking mechanism reveals detailed information in many ways, is all this information interesting to all types of explorers, could some of the information be revealed by new module types? At the honk currently we get system layout, we can visually identify body class, we can identify body type by audio AND we can determine material value from the materials listing.different player types might only be interested in 1 or 2 of those data sets, others might like to collect all. could that information be split across module variants and minigame variants so more play styles might benefit?

I would love to see exploration improve with mechanics that add depth, skill and reward to the process of discovery, and richness to the scope of the possible discovery. I would not like to see more mechanics, processes and tasks to complete in order to reveal what we already see.
 
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Why on earth did you think that. I never implied that. As to our opinion which our do you mean? The people that are positive or the people that are negative or the people that see potential in it but could see some tweaks to make it better for most people's play styles.

I think the people that actually log in and play the game should be the ones commenting, as any changes will greatly impact them. We can be as positive as we want about these changes but actual explorers currently playing the game should have the final say.
 
Thank you for that Micha, you worded it far better than I did but said pretty much the same thing. Nav panel is not a replacement for system map. We now will have to scan as well. In the end though it simply means that every player has to do this not just the explorers for who it is supposedly intended.

Hi Denis,

No you won't.

A lot of systems (in the Bubble) are pre-mapped anyway so nothing will change for those. For systems for which you don't have the full system data you have 3 options (same as now) to get it:

1. Scan the nav beacon

2. Buy the nav data

3. Perform a system scan

Performing the scan will change from the current "honk" to a more active scan (although FDev are reviewing exactly how much information the initial "honk" should reveal based on player feedback at present), but it's only necessary if you actually want all the system data!

You don't need all the system data if you're just mission running in the Bubble since the mission destination will always be available in your Nav Panel. So the basic Navigation Data for missions will always be available without any sort of scanning.

(Personally I think it's a bit silly that your ship computer does not contain all the System Data of the populated systems, or for a mission to not include the full Nav Data for the destination system. It'd be like buying a GPS but then having to buy the nav data for every block in a city separately. At the very least you should be able to buy/unlock system data for entire regions in the Bubble, but that's a completely separate discussion.)

Fly Safe,
- Micha

EDIT: Ah, and already explained by Habu2u here.
 
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If scan ranges are limited, how many distant objects may never get discovered even when the system is visited? How far do you travel before you conclude that there's nothing left to find?

I've seen secondary stars 400k+ LS from the primary.

Do those no longer get explored? Even if there, how would you know? Which direction?

There are no scan ranges for Scan 1 (honk) or Scan 2 (Surface Scan). The initial "honk" will detect basic system information (exact information TBD, the initial reveal was for a tuneable "energy distribution" and gravity distortions but FDev is taking concerns raised in this thread onboard and may reveal more information) for all bodies in the system and feed that into the new active scanner UI. It's then up to the user to resolve and scan all bodies using the active scanner. It's only if you want to probe a body that you'll need to fly towards it before releasing the probes (range of probes unknown at this stage).

Exactly how difficult or easy it will be to "tune in" to all the bodies in a system and how long it will all take using the active scanner is TBD - we haven't been shown the system in action so a lot of it is guesswork at this stage. But you will definitely know whether there's anything left to be discovered as the "energy distribution" will not be empty and there's also a "System Bodies Mapped" percentage displayed. You're also shown the direction of any unresolved gravity distortions.
 
Make Ice worlds worth the scan (monetarily and for the 'oooo' moment) by adding the very occasional oddity to them, ancient subterranean ruins or microbial life for a couple of examples; even on worlds far away from the core.
 
Why on earth did you think that. I never implied that. As to our opinion which our do you mean? The people that are positive or the people that are negative or the people that see potential in it but could see some tweaks to make it better for most people's play styles.

My apologies, it was Cmdr Eagleboy who replied to one of my posts not you.
I made the mistake of mentioning you instead of him, my fault, I'm sorry.

As to our opinion I mean the different opinions of us all.
I hope Fdev takes as many opinions in consideration as they can, I'm well aware that they can't accommodate everyone's wishes but as I said before there seem to be two camps that are most prolific.
I hope Fdev can and are willing to find an implementation of the new system that will make most people happy.

That beta can't come soon enough imho.
 
I do live in hope that some of the "in-space" graphics upgrades include stuff like comets (which we know are already accounted for in Stellar Forge), accretion discs (especially around black holes) & graphical upgrades for T-Tauri stars.......maybe even throw in some pulsars for good measure. Probably too much to ask, but some Oort Clouds/Kuiper Belts might be nice too. Maybe if systems had more in them than just stars, planets & asteroids.......& if systems had more unique visuals to them......then people would be more willing to fly around them.
 
I do live in hope that some of the "in-space" graphics upgrades include stuff like comets (which we know are already accounted for in Stellar Forge), accretion discs (especially around black holes) & graphical upgrades for T-Tauri stars.......maybe even throw in some pulsars for good measure. Probably too much to ask, but some Oort Clouds/Kuiper Belts might be nice too. Maybe if systems had more in them than just stars, planets & asteroids.......& if systems had more unique visuals to them......then people would be more willing to fly around them.

Magnetaurs... simply flying into the system disintegrates your ship... lol ;)
 
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