Modes Is attacking clean players (not npcs) in Open harassment?

[Mouse]

To answer your question, normally it would be no. Harassment would be more of if they kept going after you repeatedly.

Another question to ask would be would you considered killing players ships in which they clearly cannot escape or defend themselves while the assailant is in a fully engineered PVPcentric ships as harassment?

 

[ZeroAi]

Thanks for all the serious responses

Oh, and go grab your popcorn!

As many have said, "Open" in Elite Dangerous is best considered "Open PvP," and if you're not into PvP your best bet is PG and Solo as there is no Open for players only interested in PvE.

That however, wasn't in question in my post.

Even though Open allows well armed players to destroy defenseless players, the fact that it CAN be done doesn't make it GOOD behavior, no more than killing your teammates in COD, or killing the hostages you're protecting in Counter Strike or Rainbow Six Vegas is, even thought it's possible and allowed.

Also, there is a huge difference between feeling "harassed" and a ban-able offense you should report to FDev. Not sure why so many link the two, but I never did because the definition of harassment can apply to many things not rising to being ban-able offenses.

For those who don't know, Harassment IS defined as: the act or an instance of harassing, or disturbing, pestering, or troubling repeatedly; persecution.

For me attacking a clean player who is only doing his/her own business is bad behavior. I wouldn’t call it harassment though, cause that sort of implies that it’s something you can report players to FD for - and I wouldn’t go that far if it only happens once or twice. But bad behavior - yes.

I hear you, and I agree it's no reason to contact FDev about banning a player.

But targets of bad behavior often feel "harassed," and it meets the definition of harassment posted above.

True story is...

It is harassment, if you're streaming. Just report your aggressor and mention his/her "streamsniping". You'll get a refund of your rebuy from support.

As long as this game doesn't offer proper consensual pvp options we'll all have to deal with this nonsense.

Good points - thanks for sharing

In an open multiplayer game with guns? Hmmm.... this is a tough one. We're gonna need a few more threads on this topic.

Hmmm, most Online Open World Games with Guns don't allow unrestricted PvP... so it's pretty easy actually.

...Get a grip man... If you can't handle that, go back to farmville.

While I've never played farmville, I do know a lot of people who enjoy it and don't think any lesser of them. I personally enjoyed many hours in the SimCity series back in the day.

That said, your comment reminds me of the quote, "Insults are the last resort of insecure people."

Hope things get better for you, and you can start respecting other's opinions.

Yes. And the victim should be death, so the product key is disabled. Realism works both ways, so dont be the kind of person to cherry pick 'realism' as an argument whenever it suits your goals. In any case, FD clearly and repeatedly said attacking clean ships is a conscious part of the design, so comparing it with 'flipping a chess board' is flat-out wrong. Anyway, you clearly dont have the mentality for Open, so by all means stay in other modes. Thats what they are for.

No need to worry about the kind of person I am - you don't get to be an old happy Grandpa like me without liking yourself.

And as I've been online since well before forums like this existed, I've never considered changing because some random dude didn't like what I posted.

You may have a point, regarding the OP's premise. As for opinions, well, while everyone is entitled to their opinions that doesn't make some of them worth listening to.

Carebears and sociopaths... I wonder how many pages this will end up being. *sigh*

*sigh*

You offered nothing to the conversation except insults, and "insults are the refuge of those with lower intellect."

Next time, instead of insulting people you may want to contribute to the conversation and prove you're not in the above category.

Short answer: No.

Long Answer: Nope.

Disagreed. Harassment = an instance of harassing, which includes disturbing, pestering, or troubling.

You can even feel harassed by NPC's from time to time (in any game, now that I think about it)

It is, however, a symptom of the fact that Frontier didn’t think things through when they decided that freeform PvP would be a thing in this game.

Out of context player killing is what you get when the game fails to allow players to declare for a side (see Powerplay vs the rest of the game), and the frequency it happens is directly proportional to how heavy the penalties for such behavior is.

For example, a system designed to make criminal gameplay vs NPCs more fun and challenging isn’t likely to deter players who enjoy player killing.

To use a recent example, a player group declared their intention to blockade a certain system in support of their chosen minor faction. Given that this declaration happened on the forums, and how frequently most players in any game visit them frequently (i.e the 1-9-90 rule) maintaining this blockade will appear to be a random, out of context player-killing nearly every time.

Now imagine what would happen if they could declare their support or enmity towards minor factions in the game. Incoming players could show up as allied, neutral, or hostile based on their declarations or even who they’re running missions for. Players could even be rewarded for their actions, based on the opposition they face.

All this requires development resources, of course. Not only for the system itself, but hardening the system against the inevitable ways such a system can be exploited to cause grief in the game.

Excellent example - thanks for sharing that

/sigh....

No.

Even your example isn't harassment.

/bigger sigh....

Now if you'd kindly do some research on the game, the option of being a "criminal" (including "Murderer") was always part of the plan.
Plenty of times Frontier have said that is a valid career choice in game.

So if you don't want to be content for someone else, feel free to join a Private Group or play Solo - it's kind of why they are there.

/sigh...

If you'd done some research you'd know what the word harassment means, and would know that any single instance of being harassed (aka pestered) is harassment.

/bigger sigh...

Now if you would kindly stop and think about it, you would realize most all games let you do things considered by most to be bad behavior, like purposeful team killing. While games like COD allow it, the victims of this behavior often feel harassed to the point they'll block the player on the first instance.

This thread is harassment!

I mean c'mon, one thread about this topic is fine, but after the second, third, fourth....

Ugh, your reply is harassment! (j/k, well kind of)

How many times do I have to say I'm going to post what's on my mind and I don't care if someone talked about it two, four, or eight months ago?!?

Not harassment.

Game worlds have rules opens rules clearly allow what op is objecting to.

Drawing parallels with rl is silly.

No PvP opt in in open thanks, you need a pg cmdr.

Words have definitions, and apparently you didn't look up what harassment means.

Even though friendly fire can be left on in COD, the knucklehead who wipes out his own team on the first spawn IS harassing his teamates, EVEN though the game allows it.

What is silly is to think everyone in every open world game wants to join in on PvP, when most open world game players actually opt out of PvP most of the time.

No, its not harrassment.

No offence when I say this. But grow a pair.

It's a game with GUNS in it. You can't complain that someone shot at you and expect people to take it seriously.

No offense (because it's true) but insults are the last refuge of those of lower intellect.

As far as growing a pair, as a grandfather I've already proved my manhood many times over. And if you meant it the other way (Guns as you said,) being from a military family I know the importance of keeping my license up to date, as well as spending time on the range on a regular basis. Honestly, if I had to bet I'd guess that I've probably bested you in both growth categories, not that it's a contest or anything, but you did bring it up...

And I've never meant anyone who plays "video games" to be taken seriously. I know I don't!

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

Thank you Socrates!

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing..

Amen brother!

Fly Safe CMDRs

o7

Grey

 

[Jockey79]

/sigh...

If you'd done some research you'd know what the word harassment means, and would know that any single instance of being harassed (aka pestered) is harassment.

/bigger sigh...

Now if you would kindly stop and think about it, you would realize most all games let you do things considered by most to be bad behavior, like purposeful team killing. While games like COD allow it, the victims of this behavior often feel harassed to the point they'll block the player on the first instance.

Done "research" ?

If you'd done any at all, more than once it has come to light on these very forums I'm a retired UK Constable - I know what constitutes "harassment".
Being blown up once by a random person in a video game that advertises the ability to kill other players; is not it.

In fact, the entire concept is a mockery to all the victims of real harassment.

Here, do some "research" yourself;

Frontiers Information on the game;
The Wall of Information

And what real harassment is;
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/stalking-and-harassment

And if you're "feeling harrassed" on a first encounter with a random person, in a game that advertises Open world PvP.
Then perhaps PvP enabled games are not for you. So you may want to try here : https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/PvE/

So as the majority have said, being killed once in game is not harassment.

 

[Ethaidan]

Just stop. Sometimes you post interesting and thoughtful ideas and opinions, but not this time.

In the UK harassment is a form of discrimination under the equalities act.
Person (A) harasses another (B) if A engages in unwanted conduct related to a relevant protected characteristic which has the purpose or effect of either:
- Violating B's dignity, or
- Creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for B.

In deciding whether conduct shall be regarded as having the effect referred to above, the following must be taken into account:
- The perception of B.
- The other circumstances of the case.
- Whether it is reasonable for the conduct to have that effect.

So, no, nothing described in this post amounts to Harassment. Not in a legal definition, not in a statutory rights definition, and not in any rational extension of the premise defined in 2010 Equality Act which applies to the country where ED was produced and is hosted. Just in case you read that definition and thought, that's exactly what is happening with unsolicited PvP! No, read the first sentence slowly... conduct related to a relevant protected characteristic. Do you know what is NOT a relevant protected characteristic?

A cmdrs right to fly their imaginary space ship safely and without being attacked by other cmdrs (NPCs excepted of course) in a simulation galaxy that has been marketed, designed and delivered to not only allow cmdr initiated combat, but actually encourages it both implicitly (the BGS, lasers!) and explicitly (PP, bounties that are collectable by killing other cmdrs).

It also fails the subsequent test: circumstances of the case - see above - it's a spaceship game that allows and encourages cmdr conflict; and is it reasonable for the conduct to have that effect - no it's a spaceship game (that allows and encourages cmdr conflict) AND the plaintiff logged into the one mode available where the aforementioned conflict can actually take place, rather than one of the two other modes where conflict can be completely avoided.

Now, if your wary about this not being a relevant protected characteristic, here's a list: age, disability, gender reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex and sexual orientation. Do you know what's not on that list? Your feelings about and personal attachment to an imaginary spaceship that only exists within an online galaxy simulation.

 

[Marra Morgan]

In fact, the entire concept is a mockery to all the victims of real harassment.

This.

I cannot understand why a small minority try to equate harassment, bullying and even sexual assault to actions in a video game. It completely demeans real victims of those crimes. Some perspective is sorely needed in some people.

 

[Mouse]

This.

I cannot understand why a small minority try to equate harassment, bullying and even sexual assault to actions in a video game. It completely demeans real victims of those crimes. Some perspective is sorely needed in some people.

I mostly agree with this, but you can cyber bully. Sadly it is real and has been found to be effective.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

I mostly agree with this, but you can cyber bully. Sadly it is real and has been found to be effective.

Cyberbullying is real and valid.

Claiming that you have been cyberbullied because someone dealt you a setback in a video game isn't.

 

[Mouse]

Cyberbullying is real and valid.

Claiming that you have been cyberbullied because someone dealt you a setback in a video game isn't.

Agreed, but if you try to play a game and someone or a group of people repeatedly hound you, follow you, do all they can to interrupt your gameplay? What would that be? And my original question from earlier, could someone who prowls around looking for "newbie" ships to destroy... would that be a form?

 

[Marra Morgan]

Agreed, but if you try to play a game and someone or a group of people repeatedly hound you, follow you, do all they can to interrupt your gameplay? What would that be?

Given that the game has options available to avoid those kind of situations by design, I'd say no. It's on the individual to make use of those options and features

And my original question from earlier, could someone who prowls around looking for "newbie" ships to destroy... would that be a form?

Again, as above. There's options available to avoid undesirable behaviour built into the design of the game. I'll recap them in case anyone else is interested...

Private Group
Solo
Block Player
High-wake escape manoeuvres (my favourite!)

 

[Mouse]

Given that the game has options available to avoid those kind of situations by design, I'd say no. It's on the individual to make use of those options and features



Again, as above. There's options available to avoid undesirable behaviour built into the design of the game. I'll recap them in case anyone else is interested...

Private Group
Solo
Block Player
High-wake escape manoeuvres (my favourite!)

That is one thing i love about ED, at least two of those options. I suck at your favorite (even against NPCS) and need to work on the block list I think. Yet... if a clean player, who understands that there is PVP in Open, is repeatedly attacked by the same player or group of players say five or six times to the point they have to do three of those options just to play the game without constantly hi-waking. Would that not possibly constitute as a form of harassment?


I am interested in your response because I don't view most of what happens in ED as harassment or cyberbullying, but there are somethings that have been done by a minority (such as the infiltration of PVE groups with the express purpose of PVPing the members) that I feel really could be considered harassing or Cyberbullying.

Maybe I view things this way because I don't understand the mindset of those who find fun in a game by screwing things up for other people. The "mining salt" as it has been called.

Will answer when I wake... eyes drifting. ^,^

 

[Marra Morgan]

Yet... if a clean player, who understands that there is PVP in Open, is repeatedly attacked by the same player or group of players say five or six times to the point they have to do three of those options just to play the game without constantly hi-waking. Would that not possibly constitute as a form of harassment?

No, I don't think the act of attacking in itself constitutes harassment. That's part of the game's design - Frontier have anticipated and permitted player groups to fight against each other, either indirectly through the BGS or directly through PvP (or in my group's case - both!).

However, if those actions are accompanied by abusive and unpleasant communications in an out-of-game context, that goes directly against the Code of Conduct. That's where there may be cases of cyberbullying and other hate-crimes and I encourage anyone unfortunate enough to experience behaviour like that to report it to Frontier, the Community Managers and the leadership of that player group.

At Loren's Legion, we have very strict policies around how we communicate with our in-game foes, keeping it all within context of the game and its lore. I strongly feel that player groups have a responsibility to ensure good conduct from their members and they should investigate any accusations against their members seriously.

I am interested in your response because I don't view most of what happens in ED as harassment or cyberbullying, but there are somethings that have been done by a minority (such as the infiltration of PVE groups with the express purpose of PVPing the members) that I feel really could be considered harassing or Cyberbullying.

Infiltrating a PvE group isn't a breach of the Code of Conduct in itself, however it does breach the no-PvP rules that the groups may have made for themselves. It is down to the group's owner(s) to act on that and ban offenders as appropriate.

Maybe I view things this way because I don't understand the mindset of those who find fun in a game by screwing things up for other people. The "mining salt" as it has been called.

I must admit, sometimes I do have a little giggle at all-caps, exclamation-overkill, large-type-in-bold rants about things which were wholly avoidable. The ones about the C&P system are my favourites

But when it comes to people deliberately making other's leisure time a misery, I'm not a fan. I'd much rather everyone was honest and sensible about their expectations of the game and chose a mode that best suits their playstyle. If you don't like other players shooting at you, please don't choose Open. If you want to shoot other players, please don't choose a Private Group with no-PvP rules. It's really not difficult

 

[Bigmaec]

No, I don't think the act of attacking in itself constitutes harassment. That's part of the game's design - Frontier have anticipated and permitted player groups to fight against each other, either indirectly through the BGS or directly through PvP (or in my group's case - both!).

However, if those actions are accompanied by abusive and unpleasant communications in an out-of-game context, that goes directly against the Code of Conduct. That's where there may be cases of cyberbullying and other hate-crimes and I encourage anyone unfortunate enough to experience behaviour like that to report it to Frontier, the Community Managers and the leadership of that player group.

At Loren's Legion, we have very strict policies around how we communicate with our in-game foes, keeping it all within context of the game and its lore. I strongly feel that player groups have a responsibility to ensure good conduct from their members and they should investigate any accusations against their members seriously.



Infiltrating a PvE group isn't a breach of the Code of Conduct in itself, however it does breach the no-PvP rules that the groups may have made for themselves. It is down to the group's owner(s) to act on that and ban offenders as appropriate.



I must admit, sometimes I do have a little giggle at all-caps, exclamation-overkill, large-type-in-bold rants about things which were wholly avoidable. The ones about the C&P system are my favourites

But when it comes to people deliberately making other's leisure time a misery, I'm not a fan. I'd much rather everyone was honest and sensible about their expectations of the game and chose a mode that best suits their playstyle. If you don't like other players shooting at you, please don't choose Open. If you want to shoot other players, please don't choose a Private Group with no-PvP rules. It's really not difficult

THAT !!!oneeleven

I'd add that I'd have no qualms about clogging on people who'd attack me in mobius, and laugh in the face of anyone "KOSing" me or calling me cheater.
But that happend how often? Once? Twice? and the offenders were kicked about half an hour after the deed, so it's not as if it happens all the time, not even close.
It's basically a bedtime-story to frighten poor PG CMDRs

 

[Brrokk]

What's your opinion on this question today:

Is attacking other players (not npcs) in Open "harassment," if those players are clean, law abiding, and not attacking you?

Note: While similar questions have been posted in the forums previously, I was wondering what everyone thought about this now that we've had some time to experience the results of FDev's C&P changes.

Obviously irl if you hurt someone minding their own business obeying the law, it definitely IS harassment.

But is it harassment to do the same in a game?

Also, if Elite is meant to be a fun game, should players in Open have the option to opt into (or out of) PvP?

Or, if Elite is meant to be realistic, shouldn't murder in game result in life imprisonment?

What's your thoughts?

For me, attacking clean players in Open who are obviously not engaging in combat is like a interrupting a public chess game by knocking the table over.

While not prevented by design, it is harassing / greifing / annoyingly bad behavior which I believe leads most players to play in Solo or PG, but that's just one player's opinion!

It's not harassment unless it's done repeatedly. It's not even against the rules of the game or TOS.

However I think it's not in the spirit of the game. If someone attacks me when I'm clean and they have no in-game reason, I add them to block because I want to play among people who take space piloting seriously. (To answer a possible question, it's me who decides whether they have an in-game reason, unless they offer comms giving explanation).

 

[Leper Messiah]

If it's "seal clubbing" i.e. the aggressor is in a vastly superior craft then yes it's technically harassment. As others have said if aggression is maintained over a period of time it's harassment too.

Also it IS bullying if the aggressor is after "salt".... fact. No amount of language gymnastics will avail you, if you WANT to upset a fellow human being then you ARE a bully. end of.

I must admit I'd like to see how many who say "it's just a game", "it's just pixels" etc have a hissy fit when someone combat logs on them.....as after all "it's just a game/pixels" and means nothing doesn't it?

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

If it's "seal clubbing" i.e. the aggressor is in a vastly superior craft then yes it's technically harassment.

Please describe the method for determining exactly how much more powerful an attacker's ship must be before it crosses the threshold into harassment.

 

[CMDR VAMPIRE]

There is no threshold . If you cannot deal with the enemy , which in this case is a real commander , you either : A) Join a team and seek assistance like most players do
B) Build a superior build to that person , so you can put a stop to it
C) Fly solo until at a safe distance point
D) Block them through xbox live , so they cannot track you easily
People who cannot handle pvp or do not like it , go to a private group , fly solo , etc.. but don't try to impose new rules or regulations , as it is , it is disgusting how pvp get's treated already. Here example : you fly inside no fire zone , and you deploy weps and shoot somebody one time , as soon as you dock you get sent off to the middle of nowhere , where your pretty much screwed. That's real encouragement to play further on . Good job . Ya know , if your going to make a game based on exploration then why the grind for weapons and other ship upgrades, and howcome every single planet and every station is generic and void as heck , you call that exploration ? Either or makes no sense and it gets to the point where you want to just say enough is enough.
The players ship does not have to be more powerful , for it to become annoying . I hate to use the word harrassment because in reality there is no such thing in a game where you have so many options to avoid someone. But , in my opinion , if the ship has the right build and is the right ship , as bad as you hypothetically suck , can make it to the point where its almost unbeatable. Jumping away is not hard to do , and as long as they do not have a wake scanner , which generally they don't , you will be fine. You could be in a side winder , and have a cutter attack you but with the right manuevers and timing you could get away through high wake.

 

[Marra Morgan]

If it's "seal clubbing" i.e. the aggressor is in a vastly superior craft then yes it's technically harassment.

No, that's just unfortunate.

Also it IS bullying if the aggressor is after "salt".... fact. No amount of language gymnastics will avail you, if you WANT to upset a fellow human being then you ARE a bully. end of.

I must admit I'd like to see how many who say "it's just a game", "it's just pixels" etc have a hissy fit when someone combat logs on them.....as after all "it's just a game/pixels" and means nothing doesn't it?

Yep, it's a game. And as such, there are rules and a Code of Conduct in place. Combat logging, harassment, cyberbullying and abusive communications are all against those rules and Code of Conduct. As users of the Elite Dangerous product, we all agreed to those terms and it's down to Frontier to deem whether the rules have been broken - not you, not me or any other user.

 

[Jellicoe]

If it's "seal clubbing" i.e. the aggressor is in a vastly superior craft then yes it's technically harassment. As others have said if aggression is maintained over a period of time it's harassment too.

Not necessarily context is everything, I recently took down the same player on a couple of separate occasions while he was in an unshielded, barely armoured ship and I was in A specced, fully engineered combat vessels and would have kept doing so had I bumped into him, the reason? We were on opposing sides in a BGS conflict and for the duration of that operation he and his wingmates were fair game.

I must admit I'd like to see how many who say "it's just a game", "it's just pixels" etc have a hissy fit when someone combat logs on them.....as after all "it's just a game/pixels" and means nothing doesn't it?

I've had a few players log on me over the years, it's annoying but in the end it is indeed just pixels in a game.

 

[ModishNouns]

If I'm carrying cargo in Open I accept that piracy is a thing but I want to some roleplay / gameplay out of it. I want to be hailed and ordered to jettison like NPC pirates do. If I'm not doing / carrying anything of value, I should still be a potential target for attack, murder is a thing and sometimes it's indiscriminate, but to be killed in that situation should be rare. The problem is that multiplayer games distort this balance and indiscriminate murder becomes the norm.

Harassment is something else entirely and suggests something more prolonged.

 

[xondk]

What's your opinion on this question today:

Say, if you are attacking random people for the sake of just attacking them, despite only maybe attacking some once, then yeah, that becomes harassment.

Harassment would generally be repeatedly destroying a person or group of people repeatedly, with little to no reason.

The general point of the problem to many as I read it.

Is that they are attacked, from their perspective out of the blue, for no reason, and the attacker gains nothing from destroying them.

And lets face it, attacking someone, especially if they have no chance against you, and you gain nothing from destroying them, is not challenging and is simply done because you want to, and that's generally also what harassment falls under, so yeah.

Of course there are those that will argue with a million reasons on why it is not harassment, they will claim its part of their role or that they gain something from it or similar.

But this is a discussion that often get derailed by those that want to defend their actions, because some people want to do what 'they' want to, regardless of how it may impact others, and punishing that specific behaviour in a game is very difficult without clamping down and hurting legit PvP, people fighting for a reason and fighting those that may challenge them.

But the act of attacking someone itself, isn't harassment as such, it depends on the why, and the how, interaction, and such, say someone is mouthing off against you, or even threatening you or such, then destroying him certainly isn't harassment no matter what he may cry afterwards.