The price of being a 'Rockstar'

[jasonbarron]

Sounds like a bunch of felines to me. And no, I don't think unionizing the game development industry is a smart idea. Not unless you want to see production time double and quality go down.

My advice to those people is to find a job that fits their personal requirements better.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Sounds like a bunch of felines to me. And no, I don't think unionizing the game development industry is a smart idea. Not unless you want to see production time double and quality go down.

My advice to those people is to find a job that fits their personal requirements better.

Same tired old argument has been rolled out by industries for hundreds of years every time the word is mentioned.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Sounds like a bunch of felines to me. And no, I don't think unionizing the game development industry is a smart idea. Not unless you want to see production time double and quality go down.

My advice to those people is to find a job that fits their personal requirements better.

Genuine question, is that a personal belief or is it based on empirical evidence? Because I cant really find any strong support for it. Belgium, for example, has a very strong culture of unions (to the point of it being comical: unions are politicized, so you have christian, socialist, liberal etc unions within and even across sectors, who may have disputes independently of each other!). The Netherlands are somewhat in between Belgium and the US (unions are everywhere, but we dont have the 'lets-strike-and-hit-the-barricades!' culture of Belgium/France). Productivity wise, Belgium beats the other two, with the Netherlands trailing the US a bit (http://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/). Add to that that in Belgium and the Netherlands working weeks are shorter, and standards of living are higher, it seems that in practice (from my experience and looking at the numbers), the glorious anti-union stance common in the US isn't doing much at all for the people. And check Norway: compared to the US ultra-left with strong unions (https://www.lifeinnorway.net/trade-unions/), and they trounce the States. In my current field (education) I work less, earn more, and contribute to higher quality education for much lower costs to our students when compared to the US. We're heavily heavily unionized: 35 paid holidays + 20 unpaid, 'vacation bonus' and 'end of the year bonus' totalling two monthly salaries, free healthcare, free transportation (including non-work related) etc etc. And our students get a full bachelor + masters degree for about $3000, with financial support available to poorer students. Not bad, I think. It seems like the anti-union vibe is the kind of economic belief that works very well in books and novels but, like communism, simply doesn't hold up in the real world.

As always, economic theories should be based on how people do behave, not on how the person feels others should act. Forget about that and you end up with communism, libertarianism etc.

 

[Slange Lands]

I hate to break it to you, but theres a entire country over here working for ten bucks an hour with a lot of jobs that offer no benefits, no health insurance, and when your working 60-70 hours to live in a one bedroom motel room and you cant afford a car and the government says you make to much money to qualify for health insurance.

When this is my reality, when I contract some kind of major illness my only real option is a bullet to saved my loved ones endless medical expenses. When I have to crunch every week just so Im not homeless living in the woods, when a trip to the hospital for something like a chest infection or a bad tooth sets me back a thousand dollars which can be as much as 2 weeks pay.

Tell me again about how being a rockstar video game developer that requires crunch before the games released is so terrible again please?

You don't fix a broken system from the top. You dont fix it from the bottom. You fix it from the middle.

In America right now you have three classes of people, people who choose not to work and milk every piece of welfare and disability to coast and get a free ride along the bottom.

You have people in the middle who work and struggle everyday to make ends meet and stay afloat and pay a good percentage of their pay to keep the bottom floating while they themselves struggle for the neccesitys people on the bottom are freely given.

Then you have the top, well off people who don't have the base struggle everyone else in the other two classes has because of hard work or circumstance.

(There's obviously edge cases in every scenario, legit people who are deserving and welcome to these social safety nets which I am happy to pay taxes for. The amount of deserving qualifying people compared to everyone jumping on and taking the easy way out is so highly disproportionate its unbelievable)

I would think that a game oriented career at Rockstar would be middle-top or top. I'm sorry you have to work hard and crunch, I really am, but would you rather be crunching serving cheese burgers at mcdonalds while living in the god dam woods with no healthcare? Maybe count your blessings and stop whining.

There's big problems in modern society, being a video game developer at rockstar can get easier after people who work their asses off for nothing can actually survive, eat, have a roof, healthcare and hot water.

I don't know what to say. I am truly sorry that you and so many, many others have it so rough.

o7

 

[Backer42]

won an award for being one of the best companies in the industry to work for?

Until you realize, that these kind of "awards" are given to anyone, who pays the "nomination fee". Same goes for all kinds of made up "design awards".

 

[Mole HD]

Sounds like a bunch of felines to me. And no, I don't think unionizing the game development industry is a smart idea. Not unless you want to see production time double and quality go down.

My advice to those people is to find a job that fits their personal requirements better.

After a lifetime as a soldier, I understand absolutely nothing of how civilian society operates in the workplace. To me, it seems they have forgotten one of the basic rules, one of betterment of the whole rather than the individual...purely from my personal viewpoint as a mark1-A1 dumb as rocks soldier of course.

The basic 2 tenets of military life are that crap always rolls downhill and that complaints always go up the chain of command, not down.

I'm just relieved that those people complaining to their peers via the internet about a 'tough' life as an office worker didn't serve with me in a theatre of war.

Saying that, there also seems to be a distinct lack of man management on a company level..a basic skill taught in the military to junior NCO's...since rank, and especially respect, has to be earned instead of simply expected.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Sounds like a bunch of felines to me. And no, I don't think unionizing the game development industry is a smart idea. Not unless you want to see production time double and quality go down.

That's utter nonsense. Most of these questions is related with poor management and time planning, which regular workers do not bear responsibility for.

Unions have been mixed bag thorough history, but protecting members from exploitation or having actual red lines for employer to obey is something they do rather effectively.

My advice to those people is to find a job that fits their personal requirements better.

But why they can't consult each other what kind of approach is good in job seeking?

In fact, Europe has lot of professional IT unions and they are mostly have been net positive for industry, demanding health standards and good working conditions and mostly getting them. In fact, lot of companies employ special HR task forces called experience teams who try to pro actively seek out issues for work force.

Having someone looking after workers, whatever industry is, is good thing.

 

[znôrt]

You're aware that Frontier recently won an award for being one of the best companies in the industry to work for? So I guess if your point is companies should and can improve, you'd be right. I'm sure Frontier aren't perfect by any means.

if you follow glassdoor it already shows there has been an improvement since the earliest reviews, about 2014. it would be foolish to assume this is so much a real change in culture/management as just enjoying 'good times', though. when you're loaded with cash and enjoying good financial consideration like frontier is right now everything is naturally a lot easier, and everything is 'cool' and happy. it's when matters get tight when all this starts to show and pressure starts to mount and come out from all holes, starting with the smallest ones. this can change pretty quickly. a couple consecutive financial flops and frontier will be back in 2014. if by then the cultural mindset hasn't fundamentally changed, it will be the same mess.

about their recent award, i wouldn't give a fly's excrement for it, that's just paid advertisement. i've been in the industry long enough to not take even a high profile iso certification by the most 'respected' organization seriously .

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

As for crunches...it really, really, really depends.

For example we have done crunches at startups for presentations. And for startups it is something you just acknowledge when you get into one. Also no one ever forced me to stay late nights, usually it was all of us including management working assess off for presentation tomorrow morning. And sure everybody including boss realized we can only do it x times before we have to plan our work accordingly in normal hours. As long everybody is on same board, there are strict bonus system for that - in my latest work there was marked overtime which paid double - and you opt in, it is ok.

But crunches for long projects is a bit....obscene. Yes, deadlines have tendency coming too fast, but that's why you have regular meetings where you check on course. If course needs correction, then you do it. Granted, for huge projects there might be other elements at play - mostly marketing campaign, which you need to plan sometimes 1 year ahead of the time. There should be time buffers and other checks and balances. Issue with big publishers is that in lot of cases bonuses of management is tied to hitting that release window...and not how well you manage your workforce to get there.

 

[Gun Star]

I hate to break it to you, but theres a entire country over here working for ten bucks an hour with a lot of jobs that offer no benefits, no health insurance, and when your working 60-70 hours to live in a one bedroom motel room and you cant afford a car and the government says you make to much money to qualify for health insurance.

When this is my reality, when I contract some kind of major illness my only real option is a bullet to saved my loved ones endless medical expenses. When I have to crunch every week just so Im not homeless living in the woods, when a trip to the hospital for something like a chest infection or a bad tooth sets me back a thousand dollars which can be as much as 2 weeks pay.

Tell me again about how being a rockstar video game developer that requires crunch before the games released is so terrible again please?

You don't fix a broken system from the top. You dont fix it from the bottom. You fix it from the middle.

In America right now you have three classes of people, people who choose not to work and milk every piece of welfare and disability to coast and get a free ride along the bottom.

You have people in the middle who work and struggle everyday to make ends meet and stay afloat and pay a good percentage of their pay to keep the bottom floating while they themselves struggle for the neccesitys people on the bottom are freely given.

Then you have the top, well off people who don't have the base struggle everyone else in the other two classes has because of hard work or circumstance.

(There's obviously edge cases in every scenario, legit people who are deserving and welcome to these social safety nets which I am happy to pay taxes for. The amount of deserving qualifying people compared to everyone jumping on and taking the easy way out is so highly disproportionate its unbelievable)

I would think that a game oriented career at Rockstar would be middle-top or top. I'm sorry you have to work hard and crunch, I really am, but would you rather be crunching serving cheese burgers at mcdonalds while living in the god dam woods with no healthcare? Maybe count your blessings and stop whining.

There's big problems in modern society, being a video game developer at rockstar can get easier after people who work their asses off for nothing can actually survive, eat, have a roof, healthcare and hot water.

The problem with the people in the middle though. Majority like to live outside of their means. I'm in the middle and live comfortably. You just need to know what you need and save up for what you want. I got friends that take 6 destination vacations a year, buy a $60k SUV, and get house/apartment in the most expensive part of the city and then always complain they dont have enough money and they need to be paid more. They get paid enough for the job they do. They just need to stop living like they are Rockstars.

There is opportunity in the U.S. if you dont sit around expecting a job to fall from the sky and want $20 a hour flipping burgers. I started with nothing made my own way by hard work and perseverance. I can say I'm actually happy with where I am at.

 

[znôrt]

After a lifetime as a soldier, I understand absolutely nothing of how civilian society operates in the workplace. To me, it seems they have forgotten one of the basic rules, one of betterment of the whole rather than the individual...purely from my personal viewpoint as a mark1-A1 dumb as rocks soldier of course.

as a soldier for over a year (forced conscription) i can tell you it's very much the same: politics and power games all the way. in both cases people like you (those who value betterment of the whole rather than the individual) are simply exploited to varying degrees.

The basic 2 tenets of military life are that crap always rolls downhill and that complaints always go up the chain of command, not down.

ditto, it's the same in civil business, just with fancier words

I'm just relieved that those people complaining to their peers via the internet about a 'tough' life as an office worker didn't serve with me in a theatre of war.

this is interesting since the military, just like the enterprise, is not immune to the freedom of speech provided by anonimity on the net. i find this to be a good thing (though no need to blow the fanfares yet, it's still very complicated). of course it can be exploited but unlike you, i don't think this is a majority.

but i have a basic problem with this last statement of yours. see, a job is not a matter of life or death, it's just about meaning, making a life and preserving dignity. in a war you will be all brainwashed to see that submission to 'common good' (which in practical terms is equally always 100% a dispute about some other's property) as the difference of living or dying. civilian life is much more prosaic, it's just about the end year bonusses of the big shots, it's considerably harder to sell that as a justified cause. yet they still manage to do (see this thread) and that's why they mainly target 'young talent'.

now real camaraderie is an entirely different thing. this too can happen in the civilian life, in fact it is one of the aspects i have always cultivated with my coworkers, and have got fair reciprocity often. it's just a good thing to do as a human, a sound and meaningful way to be together. it is, however, limited to the bottom ranks, and is a lot less frequent in civilian life than in martial environments, maybe because in civilian life individualism is way stronger.

but it still exists. bottom line, extreme individualism is bad, too easy brainwashing is worse.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I know quite a few people in the TV/movie industry.
I think that is a fair parallel for the games industry.

Unionized TV people like riggers, grips and electricians work brutal physical jobs for the whole season(~9 mos), for 60+ hours a week.

For example, an IATSE lighting electrician is expected to carry two rolls of lighting cable, maybe over mud and rock in the rain, with mosquitoes(!!!) and on a timeline.
That cable is really fat, and can run lights up to 20KW!
It is about 1 lb/ft, so each 100ft roll weighs >100lbs because of the couplings.

If you're pretty high on the ranks, you might get to spend many hours up in the "Condor".

What many people don't consider is when you have one or more giant, super-bright lights 100 ft in the air, every insect for miles around (that can fly) comes to visit you.


So I really laugh when these gaming folks talk about it being so bad that they have to nap under their desk(!), and how unions are going to protect them from the harsh working conditions.

Ask Sarah Jones how much safer the union made her.

https://www.safetyforsarah.com/

 

[znôrt]

Genuine question, is that a personal belief or is it based on empirical evidence?

i live in a country where unions have been bought by the elites for decades, so there can hardly be any empirical evidence here. moreover, specifically in it jobs, unions are virtually non-existent except for some big state sponsored shops.

then again labor law has been traditionally very protective of workers rights, although that too has changed a lot in the last 20 years, specially since the 2008 'crise'. however this only covered these cases where an employee was pushed to such extremes as to invoke the law with all consequences, which is really a minority. some level of abuse in any workplace is usually expected.

to stress again, any programmer, qa professional, hardware technician etc is a privileged worker nowadays. general mid-low skill workers are having an astonishingly hard time lately. an university degree means nothing. this is just capitalism maturing.

 

[Ian Skippy]

After a lifetime as a soldier, I understand absolutely nothing of how civilian society operates in the workplace. To me, it seems they have forgotten one of the basic rules, one of betterment of the whole rather than the individual...purely from my personal viewpoint as a mark1-A1 dumb as rocks soldier of course.

The basic 2 tenets of military life are that crap always rolls downhill and that complaints always go up the chain of command, not down.

I'm just relieved that those people complaining to their peers via the internet about a 'tough' life as an office worker didn't serve with me in a theatre of war.

Saying that, there also seems to be a distinct lack of man management on a company level..a basic skill taught in the military to junior NCO's...since rank, and especially respect, has to be earned instead of simply expected.

I think (or guess) that two big differences between the two workplaces are that 1) in the military there is the implicit understanding that your superior officer isn't actively looking to harm you and your mates purely for selfish, individual, benefits, and 2) a breakdown of the chain of command could seriously jeopardize your colleagues. When you are in a civilian context where there is no greater good beyond profit, the chain of command has already ceased functioning years ago and the equivalent of a 'commanding officer' is a psychopath who would gladly see your entire team suffer if he gets $10 out of it for himself; well, things may escalate in a way that simply would be unacceptable in the military.

 

[cpbtrading]

My only answer to this thread/topic is.. Run your own business, employ people and you'll find out that long hours are just a way of life.
Very long hours..

 

[Gun Star]

i live in a country where unions have been bought by the elites for decades, so there can hardly be any empirical evidence here. moreover, specifically in it jobs, unions are virtually non-existent except for some big state sponsored shops.

then again labor law has been traditionally very protective of workers rights, although that too has changed a lot in the last 20 years, specially since the 2008 'crise'. however this only covered these cases where an employee was pushed to such extremes as to invoke the law with all consequences, which is really a minority. some level of abuse in any workplace is usually expected.

to stress again, any programmer, qa professional, hardware technician etc is a privileged worker nowadays. general mid-low skill workers are having an astonishingly hard time lately. an university degree means nothing. this is just capitalism maturing.

Depends on what University you go to. Some still actually teach, others you are just paying money for a piece of paper and a cry closet. I dont have a degree at all and some of these new people we are hiring with degrees in the field are dumber then I started and all I did was pick up a coding for dummies book when I started. All they do is complain that 40 hours a week is too much and they dont get paid enough.

I think (or guess) that two big differences between the two workplaces are that 1) in the military there is the implicit understanding that your superior officer isn't actively looking to harm you and your mates purely for selfish, individual, benefits, and 2) a breakdown of the chain of command could seriously jeopardize your colleagues. When you are in a civilian context where there is no greater good beyond profit, the chain of command has already ceased functioning years ago and the equivalent of a 'commanding officer' is a psychopath who would gladly see your entire team suffer if he gets $10 out of it for himself; well, things may escalate in a way that simply would be unacceptable in the military.

You've obviously never served in the military. There are CO's that their only existence is to make their subordinates live a living hell. Back Stabbing and pooping on all that get in their wake to get the next rank. Its amazing when you get into a unit that the top cover actually takes care of their troops. Its like a Christmas Miracle. Also, labor laws pretty much dont exist in the military. Once I got into a flying unit the work got better and regulations were stricter. I did aircraft maintenance before that and we worked 14-18 hours shifts constantly. Exercises you were lucky to get less then 18 hour shifts and 20+ hours working wasnt unheard of.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I think (or guess) that two big differences between the two workplaces are that 1) in the military there is the implicit understanding that your superior officer isn't actively looking to harm you and your mates purely for selfish, individual, benefits, and 2) a breakdown of the chain of command could seriously jeopardize your colleagues. When you are in a civilian context where there is no greater good beyond profit, the chain of command has already ceased functioning years ago and the equivalent of a 'commanding officer' is a psychopath who would gladly see your entire team suffer if he gets $10 out of it for himself; well, things may escalate in a way that simply would be unacceptable in the military.

Hyperbole alert!

It's a desk job!

 

[Ian Skippy]

Hyperbole alert!

It's a desk job!

Err, what?

 

[znôrt]

Err, what?

i think they mean that the military is not at all that different in this. me too i found you have a too high concept of military professionalism in that last sentence. but then militaries vary considerably, i only really knew the spanish army from inside, and i'm prone to assume it's a peculiar case [haha]

anyway, they are indeed very different contexts, but undisputed structure and authority can be both optimal and terribly inefficient, at the end of the day it's ... human nature. we still don't know very well how to deal with it when we try to bunch humans together. we've only been doing that for a few millenia and it may take some more time ...

 

[znôrt]

My only answer to this thread/topic is.. Run your own business, employ people and you'll find out that long hours are just a way of life.
Very long hours..